A battle for libyas oil the government in tripoli accuses the United Arab Emirates of ordering warlord Khalifa Haftar to block petroleum exit polls but whats behind the dispute and could it scuttle attempts to end libyas civil war this is inside story. Hello and welcome to the program im wrong come on oil has played a major role in the years long conflict in libya most of the oil fields in the east on the wall of the hull if i have to control this means the un recognized government a National Court in tripoli has been cut off from a huge source of income on friday have to us forces allowed a tanker to transport some of the crude for the 1st time in 6 months but they really imposed a blockade a day later libyas national all corporation blamed have to the United Arab Emirates for ordering the move the u. A. E. Says although Oil Production should resume it wants what it calls safeguards in place to ensure revenues arent used to fuel the conflict mahmoud has more from tripoli. Had the National Oil Corporation and lifting the force measured on the crescent. Half that a spokesman and i said continuation of the oil. Sitting a number of conditions as a prerequisite to open the oil crescent. Conditions include opening a new account in a 3rd country to receive the oil revenues and to guarantee equitable distribution of the oil revenues on libyans and he also demanded that the accounts at the central bank of libya must be if you were to find out word of the oil it had been years spent over the past years now the government of National AccordOfficials Say that those conditions are incapacitating and it instead they say that they cannot proceed in a negotiations with have to unless and until the Oil Crescent Area oil and installations Oil Terminals and oil fields are opens for the 1st time the National Oil Corporation has named the United Arab Emirates accusing it of giving orders to have to continue the blockade on the oil minister nations the blockade on the Oil Installations in libya has raised a wave of criticism from International Organizations including the us embassy in libya which says there are those who are undermining libyas economy and clinging to military escalation will face isolation and risk of sections. That were headed for an sadist jury tripolis. 3rd to bring in our guests in london the german a special envoy appointed by libyas a government of National Accord and vienna. Austria is a former defensive house aide to libya and in washington d. C. Jonathan winer a former u. S. Special envoy to libya a warm welcome to your i want to begin in london with you. For the 1st time the national all ministry has blamed the u. A. E. The United Arab Emirates for this blockade they say they gave orders directly to Khalifa Haftar what do you think is that true. Absolutely and i think the statement by the american embassy. To libya out of the American Ambassador to libya based in tunisia eluded to the same idea we have known all along probably since 2014 since have to build on the scene that he was merely a proxy for a few countries but the main one is the u. A. E. And that abu dhabi was controlling have to and directing him and giving him all the support that he needed to pursue his military campaign to take over power by force and libya and install a military regime so this is no new this is not new and and the fact is that over the last few months half that has been defeated and he has withdrawn all the way he has been forced to do all do it from tripoli some 500 kilometers east of tripoli to to search and to for his is military campaign has told his his goal of taken over power in libya has failed which means that the iraqis have failed the egyptians have felt and the russians and the french and possibly the saudis as well have felt so now the iraqis are trying to salvage whatever they can politically in libya by using the oil card as their lovers and through controlling hafter they can actually manipulate this this leverage does are lovers and insists that have to should get something out of any political process or any political negotiation that is that is forthcoming so yes there is no doubt that the americans are fully behind this behind this blockade and behind not lifting the blockade and they have any get it on an agreement we believe that has been tentatively reach between few countries including america and including also a d. Day you end mission and lip. Yes so this is this is. A setback and i step back which means that the suffering of the libyan people who rely wholly and entirely on oil revenues will suffer even more libya relies 98 percent or 99 percent of income comes from oil and oil revenues are used to pay salaries to pay subsidies to pay for medicine to face this corona pandemic and now the fact that there would be no lifting of this blockade that means there would be no revenue new revenue coming in and the general you just said to me general you just said it yourself you said that after has been defeated that hes had to move down to 500 kilometers away from tripoli but he hasnt has it the oil blockade is perhaps a bigger weapon when it comes to strangling libya itself and actually have to and the u. A. E. His back is the french the british as well all of those people made be looking at the old blockade is the next battlefield. Well yes now because they lost their military card they want to use the economic cut did they want to use the i love it but that cannot be tolerated it will not be accepted there jenny has every right with does support of the do to pursue its goal of imposing its sovereignty on d. And diet libyan land and also on the economic installations. Is the recognized government the n. O. C. Is the sub for an institution empowered to run the oil and just yet and. Coordinates with the geonic so we dont have to accept this and we have to we have to carry out we have to go on if we are fairest if we are forced to go back to the military option and resume fighting to liberate certain front and push after away from the oil crescent and other own fields in the southwest then let be it but we cannot just give in and allow the immoralities and other countries to manipulate us and to starve us of our Natural Resources and of vital income for their nuclear population lets bring in wolf in vienna where you were the former defense i say to libya you have spoken to many of the key characters here is the nature because of the defeat of lethal have torn him pushing back is the nature of the conflict in libya changing will it now be centered around the oil blockade do you think. Well its for us to need to stress that the importance of the significance of is from my point my picks every this is not the only about how you behave this is also the grievances in the east half the east think even says im not here because half the polls that they need to stand up the east and grievances the problems. Be forgotten the amrita supports the emery to supply what is actually much more important than the russians a ball game rates in. Keep of the survival of the enemy so they are much more significant of much more significance than russia but let me come back to what you discussed about the oil revenues to perceive an equal distribution of oil revenues in east is one of the key grievances not only in the east but also in the south of there is evidence also in the u. N. Reports that hundreds of millions probably even billions a loss to corruption blackmailing and organized crime each time tribal leaders claim that they are being killed weve been money from oil located its to claim regardless of how true all this is it must be taken into account its all about perceptions and as you know there was a proposal by the United Nations actually have been montanan from National Office of the central bank of the and there is their proposal point escrow account in a foreign bank and this could help to build up trust the g. And a and the c b n are against this understandably from their point of view because probably be a more if the outcome of it all and if they dont have got nicked in full access to their revenues this would actually undermine their position nationally and internationally and of course all the militias criminal coupes and islamists who benefited from the revenues also firmly against it but let me highlight the slippy also a great of a humidity to shed light on how much money was a really transfer to the east and we are it ended up you know about allegations of of corruption in haifa semele and if everyone barrack correct there is no need to be scared of such an all the. Well lets bring in Jonathan Winer in washington d. C. You have the special on voice to libya whats the current u. S. Thinking on libya. The u. S. Does not want libya to be overrun by war by war instability economic collapse here not ariens ouster United States made clear all actors want to see things worked up locally and diplomatically not by use of force. Blackmailing the government the efforts to extort oil as a weapon is impairing a countrys ability to move ahead no one should be shutting down libyas oil well libyas world is used to take care of people throughout libya including in the east in the south and any time anyone has engaged in oral extortion its gone badly for the country do there need to be negotiations that are inclusive of the bring people together and provide solutions for the countries are absolutely do does there need to be a breakdown shutdown of all oil and head of the well of every libyan is going to suffer as a result of the i guess maybe you could make the argument whats happened of course is hes just under a substantial part by counterfeit enormous fact i often. Billions of pounds of the british yours for russia its also been backed by Massive Force loans from banks really just so theres been bad economic behavior by absolutely everybody or russia does need to clean it up there needs to be a transparent to accountability but there also needs to be an end to negotiation the point of a gun or to efforts to undertake a blockade no foreigner has the right to any it libyas oil without paying or paying for it under contract and no foreigner should be telling libyans what to do with there will be a need to work d that out but blockades or a weapon being used by would be against libya thats not good for the country but do nothing one of this administration seems to be reticent to get involved directly within libyan politics in fact you have troops on the ground although it has had them in the past. Where do you think the u. S. What do you think the u. S. His role should be well the u. S. Should be encouraging all the foreign accurst hold their military. Personnel at their weapons out of the country pull the mercenaries out of the country stop the risk of a broad crux of war get even bigger in libya essentially push libyans to negotiate with one another that should be in to u. S. Forces i think that is the u. S. Or see whats the difference between what were doing now that we do know the bombing ministration that record if pollard ministration we have tremendous engagement by the president by which President Biden by secretary of state john kerry by National Security adviser susan rice. A lot of other people including the trumpet ministration. In bass are pretty much most of the time been left d to fend for himself without a lot of ongoing support at a higher level id like to see that change i dont think its going to change during the reign of the truck in the search jim martin london should everybody pull out of the libyan leave the leave libya i learned is that the. The right way forward well obviously the biggest problem that we have had in libya over the last 6 months is the internet and regional and international and the vians there is no but that does no doubt that d those countries who have been interfering in a negative way that are mentally fueling conflict and pouring oil over fire have actually fueled the instability and not allowed libyan stewart to settle down and reach an accord to reach National Reconciliation and get on with the job of of the new political era and institution and state building but let me just go back please and correct what is going on 3 key points i think we have to because otherwise they dont the people will get the idea 1st of all the idea of an International Law that of the central bank he can check with and smell because this is an idea such as that buy and smell and gas and salama it was actually the central bank in the east headed by and every who are a few is this international or the what has the central bank in enter police have welcomed it until now its only had 3 and central bank and east who is a very doing this and refusing any International Order to come or that the accounts of the central bank was in tripoli or and that is thats number one number 2 the when he talks about the grievances of the east and lack of a Fair Distribution of oil revenue to the east and the south let me remind him and this is this is when proven in that this text by by the finance ministry 60 percent of or in the revenue go to salaries and we have the highest percentage of people receiving salaries from the state but only in the world over 30 percent of the population those salaries go to libyans all over libya and the east south and west and then on top of that 10 percent goes as subsidies to food and fuel and that subsidy also goes to the east south and west so that 70 percent of our revenue is distributed throughout libya for all libyan citizen when it comes to corruption. What about corruption in the east what about the 40000000000 dinars which the only government indeed borrowed from commercial banks and which the central bank in tripoli will have to actually meet one day and bay because these banks are got emptied by the central bank what about the 12000000000 libyan do you not that have been printed in russia and have been used only in the east what about money stolen by half their sons and hundreds of millions in the in the east and has been taken to venezuela and used to buy gold and gold was taken to africa to exchange for another gold so that it cannot be traced and that gold is probably placed in switzerland or in order to buy or somewhere else these are these are not my words these are the gold from venezuela is an International Investigation which some somebodies in the u. S. U. S. Are already pursuing the other things i talked about they are well documented in the in the you and the reports of the the actually sanctions Committee Reports which is part of the u. And its not my say its the International Community saying that so what about all these corruptions corruption is is endemic and its libyans later lets bring in will bring in more than now hes been patiently listening leave until tomorrow hes going to patiently listening to you know whats going on in mind now in fact lets bring him in right now to respond to some of those allegations what do you think and do you think jamal garcia has a point or is he exaggerating. Well actually what ive said is that this was an ounce wheel idea the old it was an idea this is exactly what ive said in driving all the all the offices in 3 prius one of democracy and their school of knows very well the establishment between the c. B. L. And the beef in the leap in foreign banks also against this or that was some good reasons for their point of view my point is if everything is correct why not make this open why not stop if the c. B. L. Of the east kind of block this because actually old in miami and other than the russian money you must perfect the right the police and the up to last in the central bank of libya and corruption beast ive highlighted these and ive said that this would be also an opportunity to find out how much money really ended up in the east how much money ended up in different pockets and what happens with the money from that money thats called money from russia this is exactly what theyve said so why not stop about this right now well before. She says that i want to ask you another question wolf when it comes to actually fight hostile some of his backers are now getting frustrated with him there were reports in todays media that the french particularly are wondering if they have actually backed the wrong horse here because he seems to be not a great military come on the he said been defeated and hes now being backed by the u. A. E. And with this oil blockade is there a thinking now from people within europe particularly that maybe have to was the wrong decision. Actually this is not the person of kind of a haircut this is about the french interests the french interests in libya mainly focused on the south weve got to this office a safe haven for various terrorist group isis. And various others the steady lising key areas of French National interest in saddam region. And so on and so on and as the Libyan National army was the one who was able to fight against terrorism down in the south and ask some of the groups at the gate if they leave if the government of National Call actually corporator be if some people down there in the south you know about the names and s. Believe in the National Army also faults there elements of the mists in the east who. Actually are endangering the French National interests in the region this is the reason so the french are not off the cuff theyre not supporting khalifa half the suppressant be a supporting the fight against terrorism especially in the south and let me be clear if french as far as i understand absolutely not happy not happy that theyre in a effect 3 pretty peaceful certainly in the only military me state this was also very poorly conducted there is no about of and the question is certainly but these people use Khalifa Haftar of iraq a man who leaves believin National Army to be the leader of the east and this is what brings in their head of the house of representative the if who is now in it with who you are of to explain hese point of view i think the future of libya is not with peace and that in the video the future of libya is the new we been young form of a federalist state. Jonathan morning in d. C. America has a problem right now when it comes to a lot of Foreign Policy thinking Foreign Policy operations Foreign Policy diplomacy in the a lot of countries all simply waiting until november to make any decision it seems to me that weve been talking to a lot of different people and theyve all said to us well lets see what happens in the elections in december before in november before we make any decisions about how we negotiate with the u. S. That cant be good for us is Foreign Policy right it is not good for us for both but it was for. Miserably in any number of areas but president ministration and we have seen disappointing discouraging and distressing us or treat in afghanistan syria libya a failure to maintain u. S. Values and support for promoting stability and security for people and justice freedom and what weve seen instead is that in the interest of the ground here i dont think thats an accident i think thats part of the pro. The problem International Actors generally a part the problem now the g. N. A. T. Youll government you know how it is backed by international but you know why are you so far away from getting to an agreement with the south and with the east. Its not about the south and the east just that some misconception we are quite happy to reach out on we are talking to a lot of people in the genuine people from the south and the east when you talk about the east you talk about social forces if Political Forces civics Civil Society forces tribes have to does not represent them have the does not even belong to the east easys actually originates from the west but those forces in the east are not being oppressed by hafter for the last 60 years in a similar manner that gaddafi has oppressed the east and the west and the south for 42 years they cannot speak they cannot criticize they cannot have open contacts with the journey there would be a kidnap they would be in prison they would be killed youre a member of the member of Parliament Sam said if you are the woman on the run as well as going to work with what happened to her shes been kidnapped by by after is militias and possibly killed just because she she voiced her a different opinion from within bunkers and she is a member of parliament from benghazi so yes we have no problem we are willing we are ready we want to sit down and have a genuine dialogue with the real genuine forces of the east whether they are social political symbol whatever it is but not half that he does not represent them here to present to him our ideas the french as well as sad and he is a proxy and he resent them to the russians and egyptians so he he does not represent the interest of the libyan people without that and that is the south and the west thats one point the other but im afraid i have to correct well for a game hes presenting half that as the one who is fighting terrorism and as if the genie is somebody ties with or is that some misconception one for remember who are let that members gave them a safe route to up to come out of benghazi and done and go all the way to sirte and early 2016 it was how after and horse forces demolished and uprooted dies or is isis from the biggest presence outside syria and iraq to emerge out of sirte it was a journey it was the poignant. Most of those over 6 months more than 3000 die as members have been killed and seared into him out of service and their d. N. A. And put me under mortal forces secular 5742 lives to achieve that job that was the biggest achievement against terrorism and against that outside the city and i then americans will testify to that because because african was a was part of that operation by brute fighting support so this is the reality of who is fighting terrorism have to it is not about fighting terrorism its not about building a civic state or a constitutional state half that is about going back to the days of one man military dictatorship rule this is the crux of the matter why the iraqis are insisting on either controlling libya or making sure that it did remains in chaos for as long as possible i would like to say that i think wolfgangs point was actually about the french strategy of using people like have to offer their own interest rather than simply fighting terrorism within libya itself sadly. We would like to get into more of this it looks like the old blockade is going to be a talking point for a while to come i want to thank all our guests general community. And Jonathan Winer and thank you too for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website aljazeera dot com and for further discussion go to our Facebook Page has facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story and you can also join the conversation on twitter we are at age 8 inside story for me and monk and the entire team here and a whole lot to know. Capturing a moment in time. Snapshots of all the lives. Of the stories one people are free to. Be on track again and providing a glimpse into someone elses world through up pursuing in the dream of coffee a life inspiring documentaries from impassioned filmmakers. 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Politicians our White House Correspondent kimberly how it explains the significance of pompei a statement i think whats so pronounced about this is the fact that up until now the u. S. Had all we