A cathedral faster than a mosque and later a museum now istanbuls landmark hagia sophia is being reconverted back into a mosque but is this an act of religious significance or political narrow minded yes this is inside story. Hello welcome to the program im Adrian Finnegan one of the worlds most famous landmarks the haggis affair museum in istanbul has been turned back into a mosque turkeys president but one says the site will be open to muslim worship in less than 2 weeks after a top court ruled that the buildings conversion into a museum in 1904 was illegal built one of the half 1000 years ago as an Orthodox Christian cathedral august affair was converted into a mosque after the awesome and conquest in force 153. 00 while unesco and greek russian and other Church Leaders of denounced took his decision its Foreign Ministry insists that its a domestic issue of National Sovereignty will bring in our guests in just a moment but 1st a report from aljazeera said im close to istanbul. The. Dozen celebrating conversion offer stumbles iconic landmark hagia sophia back into a mosque through a much awaited Court Decision at dream turkish muslims have been chasing for 85 years im very happy i wish hard use of fear remains as a mosque until the Judgement Day i ask for them i as soft as a mosque is a legacy of 5 children my met you got it back turkeys present project a part on the signed a president ial decree shortly after the countrys highest court revoked a 934 cabinet decision that turn the other face in term you see him change i mean. Like all our other mosques the doors of high gas sophia will be open to all locals foreigners muslims and non muslims being the common heritage of humankind hagia sophia will continue to embrace everyone in a most sincere unique way with its new status. High gas off the ice turkeys most popular tourist site attracting nearly 4000000. 00 visitors a year and so you know ask a World Heritage site and part of the historic areas of to stumble the un wants to make sure no changes are made to the structure we deeply regret this decision made by the turkish authorities made without without prior discussion and prior consultation prayer dialogue and we call for the universal value of this splendid World Heritage to be to be preserved. The implications indeed have to be discussed now and this is why we call on the turkish authorities to reestablish the dialogue without delay immediately after turkey stop administrates or forge a rule that i also feel will be i must say again turkish people who have been awaiting for at the station for years are here to celebrate and they are impatient to have their 1st prayer inside our guest software was built as a christian. With a ducks cathedral 1500 years ago and it was converted into a mosque after the autumn one can cast in 1453 turkeys decision has caused all trade in greece and russia home to millions of orthodox followers Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew had earlier warned the decision would disappoint millions of christians around the world but president tired on say is deciding the purpose off i guess sophia is turkeys sovereign right see now because although aljazeera a stumble. Will start a discussion today with Abraham Collin whos a spokesman for turkeys president richard type one he joins us now from the president ial complex in ankara good to have you with us is this political narrow mindedness on behalf of president. He and his party have always argued that this is a matter of National Sovereignty how so why is this such an issue of national importance. Has been an important issue actually for the turkish public fora for decades maybe some outsiders have not been to veritas but there has been an intense debate about is the question many people asked today and they asked it in the past is why this place was turned into a museum in the 1st place it served as a mosque for 500 years it became a symbol of the city if you stumble it served as a place of worship but also as a. Beautiful store called a cultural site and it preserved its identity as such for for many years christian icons and mosaics and other descriptions have been preserved as part of the slum a tradition. There and you know when this issue came up from time to time in the turkish public the question again was it should turn into a mosque because this was its proper function over more than 5 centuries but why now you talk about the turkish public it toward care right now about the reconversion of the hug is a fear when the economy is crumbling when the country is dealing with a Global Pandemic isnt this just an attempt to distract from policy failures and waning Popular Support for the president s policy. Not at all i dont know where you get your facts from our economy is not crumbling we have handled the condemning much better than many other countries in europe or the United States or some countries in Latin America Africa we have done really really well dealing with depend and if you look at this a port for this move by not only the public but also the Political Parties including opposition Political Parties you see that there is overwhelming consensus on this issue you can look at the statements from the opposition Political Parties including the Republican Party since yesterday they have supported this move so there is really not such a big fight over does yes there are some critics who have raised concerns and when i look at some of their concerns i see kind of 2 main issues one is that it will not be available to all visitors from around the world and the 2nd one this new move will somehow shadow or damage its cultural historical site quality and both are unfounded because the place will remain open to all visitors believing nonbelieving christian jewish indu buddhists or anyone who comes to stumble and theyre welcome to visit this place so it will be open with all of its frescoes and i cons and descriptions there is no limitation on that and as far as its being a historical site is concerned it can serve as a historical site cultural site in addition to being a mosque you have many places like theres not a dame cathedral for example in paris is both a church and also a visiting place the blue mosque and stumble is a mosque but also its open to all visitors at different times and there is no contradiction between the 2 qualities i dont know i dont want to go chasing down the line of the economy here because we had to talk about that the haggis a fair bit of it is an established fact that turkeys economy is not in the best shape of the moment and here we are facing thanks to the. Pandemic a global recession the prospects are not particularly looking good does president care about the international condemnation. Due to his decision as far as International Relations are concerned is this a decision that he will come to regret no not at all in fact he made it very clear yesterday that we took this this decision based on the veil and demands of our people and we are making this place available to everyone of your not limiting anyone from visiting displaced even though it is going to now function as a muslim house of worship it doesnt mean that non muslims will not be able to enter it as far as the International Reaction is concerned its interesting to think about that secular europe coming to. Disc conclusion and raising this issue when the place is turned into a mosque its no longer a world historical heritage site i mean the debt that assumption is in itself is very very questionable istanbul has as always represented the coming together if you like the coexistence of islam and christianity what message does the president s decision send to the Orthodox Christian world when when Orthodox Christian leader is was so against the decision to return the offensive to muslim worship. We have a long established tradition of religious coexistence in turkey we have more done 400 churches and synagogues open in turkey our non muslim communities are free to. Worship in their traditional ways jews and christians and others more traditional christians like syria Christians Orthodox armenian christians catholics and others they have their on the religious institutions they have their own schools and they are free to practice their religion so it doesnt really raise any questions about religious coexistence turkeys air too many empires and civilizations and culture cultures and we have been able to preserve that rich cultural tradition for centuries and we are determined to do so the new status that i sophia will have as a mosque it does not in any way at take away anything from its being part of this rich tradition what message does this send to president that it wants to try to sit home and abroad to what extent to this reinforce the perception of the turkey is not interested in abiding by International Institutions its determined to act unilaterally what International Institutions or d conventions are there to decide whether i associate should be a mosque or museum im sorry im failing to understand your question there but you know its. I can give you many examples where different places of worship have function as a place of worship as well as visit but if youre going to talk about International Norms and regulations you should be talking about the rising tide of racism in islam a phobia destruction of mosques in europe and other places. Even the mayor of istanbul is against this decision that he got together a a petition to to reverse that the president s decision how he going to deal with that with with opposition within the country within the city itself well that thats an opposition within the Opposition Political Party actually the party that the mayor belongs to has supported his movie havent heard anything to the contrary thats his personal choice they will have to deal with. The decision has been made for the moment that the president is riding on on a wave of positive. Domestically thanks to this what happens when when that piano is dies down in a few days or weeks what happens when people return to debating the president s handling of the economy and the pandemic as i said we have handled the endemic extremely well i dont know how you ever rival that conclusion i mean look at our numbers compared with other countries we have protected our own people thanks to our Health Infrastructure and the decisions that our president has taken. And now youre opening up to get the economy back on track again just like the rest of the world but via fared much better than many countries in europe such as spain italy france or the United States or other countries of course there is a global recession and everybodys taking their share from it but we have done extremely well during the condemning process finally wages this decision to leave the states secular principles and countries liberals. Well as i said if secularism means that the state protects all religious communities and faiths and this is exactly what the turkish state has been doing all religious minorities jews and christians are free to worship practice their religion in fact they have seen more freedom and acceptance and coexistence in the last almost 2 decades than in any other period of our modern history if you if you ask them christian under jewish communities here the properties that were confiscated in the past have been returned to them they have their own churches they appoint iran religious leaders day have day run religious practices they have the places to worship and there are equal citizens in the country all right kids torches so many thanks for being with us in for him callin the spokesperson for took his president recha type but one. All right so lets bring in our other guests for todays program joining us from istanbul we have found that it jelinek who is the managing editor of the turkish newspaper the daily sabah and from washington d. C. We have missed off our kill whos a senior fellow at the Cato Institute and author of the book islam without extremes a muslim case for liberty welcome to you both the stuff of lets start with you what did you make of of what you heard that. I mean mr cullen is worse of reason at all to the landscape that is not only more reasonable and not i agree with most of the things he said but there are a few nuances i would like to add. I mean if hug a sophia was just a mosque if it was built as a mosque and if it only had the history of a mosque nobody would have any problem should have been a problem. In returning it from in the series which would get on the im just sitting. Back into the mosque which is the source of perks but of course the complication is i was sophia was built by christians serve as a cathedral the most important port for Easter Charity for tauzin years all. By not empire and the legality of that from an even islamic point if you can be discussed they relied on the one of the lot of different perceptions on islam because we have in some cases 3 cities conquered by muslims like jerusalem in which. Christian d churches were not converted d in Paper Service such and what happened under ottomans happened and for their time the ottomans were they be going to tolerate us regardless of convert the churches and during the republican era under editor this was absolutely or was turned into a museum now i understand i dont even share the offense of any religious leader seeing a place of worship turning into a museum who has the right to say that do that and turkey secular past has other problems that turkeys instance surrogates are rightly critical like bans on since have pets cars and turkey secular past has not been very good for christians will change minorities as well however when and you will revert back to the soviet to worship. Ive been arguing that we muslims have a right here we have the right to worship especially the ones in the short countries but we should honor also the christian heritage. Not just by saying as a tourist you can come and walk in but you have a right to the peoples well so took could do it for 2 decades argued that to believe that could be shared in terms of time and space between muslims and christians of these christians could have been some spot to 2nd the most important thing right now. Yes theres christian heritage all the iconography but as i understand it they will d be covered some i dont know the specific asians they have nothing to explain to curtains or to a light system or these are things that ive heard of each of the media and that will be seen i think by a lot of christians as an insult to their heritage as say as covering their hair and would we muslims want to see that in the balkans or somewhere else or in spain we would it and i think we should not do unto others we dont want to be done to us at mehmet genack in n. S. W. What do you make of what you heard from the president s spokesperson the. Us secretary of state might compare says that a change of the building status would diminish its ability to serve humanity as a much needed bridge between those of differing faith traditions and cultures hes right isnt. Well 1st of all i would like to highlight a few points that you know comment on the point. Where on what was stuff i just said. You know he asked whether we muslims would be happy if we saw the same thing in the balkans or in or in spain unfortunately we cannot see the same thing because the mosques have been destroyed. In the balkans and in spain having said that i do one thing that i need i think we should all agree regardless of all the debates about its cultural value historical value religious and well symbolism i think one thing that we all should agree on that. d this decision is a matter of domestic issue for turkey as a sovereign state. Of course we can be critical of course we can judge or discuss it but with regards to the decision had to be taken by the turkish authorities the judicial authorities are expected executive authority that then we should agree that this is a decision that is took as she took a sovereign right. When it comes to the International Arena particularly in the west i think if you know we the the you know way they think right now as it has a few yesterday the mosque the i associate museum was a as of yesterday it was a cathedral or it was a church and now it has been actually returned back to. I mean being converted into a mosque but this place has served as a place of worship for the muslims since 1453 and i think they should have norry about whether its our icons will or i mean the symbolism inside the structure will be will lose its meaning or diminish just be diminished because turkish history does not have such examples of destroying such things as that have cultural or historical or religious value so they will be preserved but of course its a place of worship for the muslims and i cannot agree with as far as i know with regards to religious laws at least the religious law of a place that has been converted into a mosque cannot serve as a as a as a church at the same time im not only im not a religious expert at thats as far as i know but stuff one of the risks in this for president of one. 1st of all id like to say one thing yes ottoman mosques many are in moscow being destroyed in the balkans by serbian or greek actions ripple carry months but thats a shame and weve protested as turks and muslims and we didnt say its the National Sovereignty of those countries ok he said it is unfair yet there are some australian dont stuff as the gentleman at that time is very time is very tight here and there are a lot of things i want to discuss with you and so if you could stick to answer my question yeah as you know any part of a structure what are the risks in this stuff for president to one well domestically its a popular rule so i dont think the mystic means that we are a problem but there might be International Problems and president i dont want to insult a year ago said that on t. V. A year ago he was actually in iran that purposeful should be reopened the mosque and he said to an audience and thats why right still or he said if you do this new think what will happen to our mosques around the world so he must say that we should not throw nationalism while by taking a national. Natural Country Nationals and against muslims i fully agree with that president on you on that i dont know what has changed now youre just made a quick decision that it should be a mosque again it will be popular its well i think rally his base and. Its has been support about a partys im not denying that but the question is turkey has power think you have the right to do this thats fine but what what kind of a message are you giving to the world and its a target myself i think we could have given it better than that what will be the impact on our relations between turkey and greece for example to what extent is greek dysplasia exactly what the president s decision was designed to provoke. I think i think greece display it i mean i it is totally understandable and i mean its we cannot discuss why greece is bothered by this we shouldnt even be discussed because i mean its historic d there is a story called. Baggage that comes with the whole this whole issue but i think what greece should look into is one how come you know athens is the only greek European Capital without a mosque what happened to all the mosques in athens thats something that we should be discussing to actually establish relations between turkey and greece on a on a you know a more tolerant way and of course greece and turkey they have you know relations that are back and forth all the time with historical baggage with regional dynamics and with of course having mean 2 neighbors that rely on shared resources so this issue will yes it will you may put a dent on tookie gris relations but i think there is more foundational. Issues between turkey and greece in 2020 that needs to be discussed to overcome such such rivalry or such enmity between the 2 states and stuff ive got about a got about a minute or less here to what extent does this decision picking up on what you were just saying to what extent does this decision damage islam reputation or image in the rest of the world does it matter what anyone thinks outside of his long. I think it does we muslims. Have its natural sovereignty and we deserve our but i think we should show their shoot in the name of our plates and i think one of the strengths of the issues of islam has been pluralism d tolerance and respecting other faiths if he rather emphasized as conquest which is a part of our history but something maybe not that relevant today i think we will not be doing a service to our plate so im happy lot of a lot of people worship in august so i look forward to in that myself but i wish to see that christians when come to the building table see their heritage and they might even have a spot where prayer which is still not impossible all right gentlemen many thanks indeed good to have to remember genic there in istanbul midst of a kill and washington d. C. Thank you as always for watching dont forget you can see the program again at any time just by going to the web site al jazeera dot com for further discussion join us at our Facebook Page at facebook dot com forward slash inside story and you can join the conversation on twitter i have the at a. J. Inside story from avery and finnegan and the whole team here at 0 effect for watching ill see you again on. They signed up for a luxury cruise but some would never come ha. Ha ha ha the one i want to investigate from new zealand didnt leave ok no eruption on aljazeera. Aljazeera. Ever. Write. That the ultranationalist mucks connected with one of the worlds worst humanitarian crisis we dealt as illegally maigret joining with the military to impose a deadly political agenda we have 2 photos of our nation what has happened to the engine thats one of the biggest stains on the country as a whole. Is another religion this is the politics me and an unholy alliance on aljazeera. Im game that alan dont have the top stories on al jazeera aid groups say theyre deeply concerned over restrictions on the flow of aid into syria the Un Security Council agreed on friday to a compromise that leaves only one Border Crossing with turkey open. Has more on whats at stake with the loss of one of those turkish Border Crossings it means the the almost 1000000 civilians who live in areas like a