I have to be ok you are watching this story june 27th tina Grenfell Tower fire cured 72 people this week a Public Inquiry resumed after taking a break for covert 19 your downs in the u. K. So what will to do on todays program is find out how is the investigation going and will the people who were around when its how are the survivors the families the community will they see justice for granted. Im going to say hello to the guest the guests were introduce themselves to new hello say tell everybody you have. Hello im celeste matter im a barrister by some expertise in human rights law criminal law and also fire regulation law by advise fire brigades and also advise companies in relation to fire good to have you in todays conversation and i like a great to have you on the strange introduce yourself i important in this conversation go ahead thank you for having me on the hip hop artist and political campaigner our witness the fire i live next door to the tower and our lost friend of mine and his family in the fire thank you so much for joining us on the straight and p. C. We can really do this conversation without you tell everybody who you are. Minors pay. Journalist commentary terrapins how has already so much as a. Career has such as uncensored so gents is weve 3 years since the going for tower fire what have you seen thats all that is happened that is changed peter is the. Im one of think the sure those know enough to be on and. Tonight theyll be somewhere between half a 1000000 and a 1000000 people that go to soup in a building with a dangerous climbing system on its walls. And there hasnt been an awful lot done to remedy that situation the money that the government has tried to put into it has been quite. As well quite been enough and there hasnt been much more leverage that or change either. Weve had a lot of consultations with having a lot of promises made i think much of whats happened since since the firehouse really maintain the status quo rather than challenger and like i say the most important thing which is making sure no other her doings could have a similar fire and a result of having a kind of system around that will theres one person that has been incredibly slow right im just looking at my laptop this headline solution i was a firefighter at graham still why do i see towers inflammable cladding across britain and look at the dates here as just a couple of weeks ago at 19 june 2020 same age whats going on here. So to get back to the earlier question while answering yours firstly that the green felt fires had huge repercussions not only in this country but internationally because its not just london that has such high rise buildings with. Clarity that is potentially fatal its in almost every major city and so what others are doing is theyre watching our inquiry to see what happens one aspect of this inquiry is that there has been some action so its not been all complete lack of action and so a number of companies who highrise blocks of flats taken some urgent action local authorities particularly in london but elsewhere in manchester and other major cities have already started some some months ago in fact 3 years ago as soon as the fire occurred have started to investigate which buildings have the most dangerous clothing the enough is done so i agree with peter entirely that there are still lots and lots of buildings with dangerous cladding and of course that far officer who says that he still sees cladding on the outside of building is absolutely right that on a positive note quite a lot has happened but not enough gnocchi you live right by graham to tell how clancy. I would say less than 100 meters and i directly see it from my front room if i was able to respond to your initial question though the change in regulation that we have seen is to say that only a one in a 2 materials can be used now the Royal Institute of british architects have a problem with science that saying that aid to limited combustibility that is a great of Building Material i suspect is one in 18 materials ahead if its still in use people in precarious position we have seen evacuation policy from the fire Service Change so you havent seen state apply when in for example was the park a part of outskirts of london you saw a fire where similar material or dangerous material nor exactly similar material lead to a massive fire and the fire service got people out of the building were rather than keeping to a stay put policy what worries me about this is there may be an idea on the part of some in the Construction Industry in that if you change evacuation policy on behalf of the fire service if you now have 24 hour waking watch Companies Set up to focus on those building if on top of that you are in a situation where even the clothing that doesnt get removed in some cases is being removed by a Company Called reiden who is responsible for the refer fischman at ground cell tower what you see is the people who were part of the problem being offered as part of the solution youre seeing Berkeley Group already saying that a one a 2 should be pushed back on and actually it would be it would impede enterprise to have this kind of the light very light. Regulation on the building industry and lets not forget that change to a one in 8 to was fought for tirelessly by ahmed already who lost his mother and his sister in the fire it was a concession that brief had to really fight for and still as was said before its not enough. Real and he charged right nor our thank you chief fit for being part of this conversation it go ahead in our combat teaching go ahead and were not just i just want to call our monarchy or say in there in the new government was actually moving towards a position where it wouldnt ban on Combustible Materials from the outside its all going to want to take a very limited necessary step which. Im just im just a londoner. Im just thinking why would you not want to jena high would you not want her back to the let it will be out of the building. The argument from you in the street has been. You know you can insulate a building much more easily when its a plastic based insulation into a mosque defensively. They have there is tests and so on which say that you can use the stuff in a safe way i think the problem is. That you might be able to get something through testing a little richer in great might be very very good for and once thats been installed by a building how can one house i protect costs not necessarily doing the work properly. And not to have the home testing regime. Come under a lot of scrutiny on public transparency or that im sincerely. You p. S. U. As you speak were looking at is really hard to say. I dont want to pay this too often initially we know what the gram fatality file looks like its a king of the track now has a new chip on you tube right now thank you for sharing your your your thoughts with us since it is quite obvious the British Government has not given this any priority saying. May i may answer that question and also come back to something that lukey just ahead lights light touch regulation the light touch regulation is a mantra that lawyers such as me hear constantly what it really means is the government decided many years ago and its not just this government successive governments decided to take less and less of an active role in safety and so a light touch regulation is just a phrase which means we the government or we the fire brigade or the health and safety except it will not supervise safety in the way that we used to we will leave it to the Big Companies the record creations the owners of these high rise books of flats believe it to others on the basis that these others will supervise themselves whats become abundantly clear and it was clear to people like those on the ground saluki no doubt in certain lawyers that light touch regulation rarely succeeds it is just a way of or through looting responsibility as a result of current photo and hopefully as a result the inquiry will have some rebalancing or the light touch regulation scenario that we have a little heavier touch regulation to try to protect the lives of people. Lets have a look at that inquiry you can follow the inquiry at Grenfell Inquiry on twitter it will tell you what time the breaks are have a back here on my laptop what time the breaks are who is our this is from wednesday what time lunch is and then even will give you the links and that you compare what shit lowkey i know youve been watching it is a question here on twitter and im wondering if if you because you become such an expert on building regulations and cladding justice for barely reaching a says i dont understand and this comes out of the Public Inquiry which our whole senior fire engine media didnt know that the cladding was dangerous please make it make sense locate war i have to say that anything that ive learnt during this process has been largely thanks to the work of pizza and others inside housing they have been an absolutely vital and essential channel through which the rest of us can try and understand what has gone on and i think any of those hoping to get to grips with what happened really its incumbent that they really focus on inside housing as much as possible so i actually think peter would be a better position to answer this question p. Singh if i engineered i didnt know that the cutting was dangerous is that just the figure fed. Im revise what im so much as an ally carrier. On the issue the judgment could turn terry ashton a thing weve learned from his evidence this is something about what the role of fire engine is play in the construction process only on the ground for projects in that. He was not youre trying to fire engineer and he had a background in what we call go in control which is the process of signing off for buildings compliant. And he explained his wrong way and much more about making sure that the proposal would be signed off. They believe in the words he used were achieving compliance for the car and then. You and i would understand the role of a senior fire engine and they would just make sure that the project is if i say in some senses those 2 things are the same thing because complying with the rules means. In some instances making sure the building is if there is a tension between it he was involved also at an early stage. And due to cost pressures the refurbishment i dont like. It why why would he not understand its a very it was i was so. The result was our entire project. A contractor who cried and came in in 2014 to take over and to have. Less money than he had previously assessed it would cost at that point they start using soap and services as a fire engineer terry ashton was there for projects at the stage he was involved in every his argument was a freebie was a fitting piece let me push it. And as i am sure you are journalists and stand up i would later oh im sure id let you know if you cant wrap it up because because that was an honest question for something you really cant say about the families in this 5 year old i just dont get more answer as clearly as i possibly can i mean the the picture is another one in the senate it shows a car of a woman or let me show you something that i know that you care deeply about and im surprised its come up again because when the Public Inquiry started over the family said we need to take into account racism is just lies reseason when we look at what happened with the Grenfell Tower fire this is a headline that you wrote survivors lawyers call for Racial Discrimination to be considered as a factor in brown for fire it has come up in a Public Inquiry this week this is Leslie Thomas who represents the families and survivors for the graham for tower talking about institutionalized racism so listen. It is the institutional racism that keeps black people locked in the light a day to slum tenements subject to the days preyed of exploitative slum landlords merchants london shops and discriminate treat Real Estate Agents the society by the pertains it does not know of this law the situation is in fact incapable of doing anything meaningful about it. And the majority of the Grenfell Residents who died were people of color and we know that we know that the statistics of blair and by this awful continuous reminder that grenfell is in big stupid little with racists it is the elephant in the room. Its a generational the is the elephant in the room it feels like it is probably the room this is still in but let m. P. This is a tweet that she put out quite recently and i know there were family members who were pushing for racism to be part of the Public Inquiry because i was already start study done but the brain says you must allow survivors of family members into the proceedings are watching on you tube right now you have to consider race is a contributing factor is that a cause is a contributing factor please show compassion walk other chances that in this Public Inquiry that it will be our will to take in to account race and class because its already started saying. Race class poverty are key factors and there is statistical evidence that weve just heard mr thomas talking about they should have been part of the inquiry and of course its the elephant the problem is a story with the elephant in the room because right to the beginning when the terms of reference for the inquiry ring drafted that elephant was manhandled out of the room and has been locked away. Its the terms of the inquiry that the charge drafter more be drafted that precludes. Hearing evidence about that when the head of the inquiry mortgage wrote to tourism a saying these are the terms of the inquiry that i think you should have capsulated in my reference trays of a report saying yes i agree they excluded these wider areas and therefore they will not be looked at. Im just looking at this is from the Monitoring Group and its a very stark image and really relates back to what is happening in the United States what is happening with the battle is not a movement and this is the message of Grenfell Tower earlier on this morning this is from an earlier tweet we are brief as a resident you see this tower when you see this make the connection between racism and then what happened 3 years ago. Grin fell is a National Scandal which has been camouflaged as merely a local scandal now it was a local scandal i would say yes theres a can contributing factor of racism the building itself is believed to be named after fronts as well as graham fell who killed for the British Empire in south africa in egypt in sudan who occupy positions in india and in ireland the tower overlooks bramley road which was the road where you had 4 days of race riots in thanks to former nazi Oswald Mosley encouraging what would turn this teddy boys at that time to firebomb the houses of people that came in the wind rush generation from the caribbean labrat grove being one of the only places that they were able to rent property the way in which race is not a factor is in the National Scandal and if you have half a 1000000 people who many of whom if not all as reported by the guardian and inside housing who are leaseholders across the country if you have as some have estimated between 5 to 10 percent of the population currently in houses in which the walls are dangerous to them the problem with grand fellow is it is exceptional ised as just being about our community when it should have been generalized and understood as something that yes this community where theres a huge amount of north african middle eastern people are actually campaigning for the safety of everyone in this country and their homes unfortunately the identity of those who was dying who died was weaponized against them in the aftermath of the fire in order to alienate them from the rest of the population in this country had people in this country been able to see. The themself in our community and see themselves in the victims in the brewery then there would have been a better chance of building a Critical Mass to demand real action to remove this stuff theres leaseholders in croydon told they have to pay 40000. 00 pounds to get this stuff removed off of their building they have done everything according to margaret thatchers idea of a democracy of home homeowners its the same in greenwich its the same in many places across the country however those people are also not being listened to is it is it and i would say this also to labor councillors lets not forget that the councils which are ignoring many of these people across the country are Labor Councils manchester has a higher rate of buildings like this than anywhere else in the country yes on the local level and the local side of the scandal i think race is a contributing factor on the National Side of the scandal we need to take this far more seriously and realise that it cuts across many different sectors of society including homeowners and middle class people to. So we have just hit the 30 Year Anniversary of the Grenfell Tower 5 when a couple of weeks ago there was a video memorial for the families of the survivors and Moira Samuels is a Community Activist in a campaign of a justice for graham phil she spoke at that memorial is in his interest to 20 we find ourselves in a world that is again holds a mirror up to the inequalities in our society grenfell did exactly that it held a mirror up to the fact that actually the residents were not listened to the fact that they predominantly came from a muslim background we look at the judicial system in america the Justice System the brutality of the police and reflect on the fact that actually. Black lives matter and culture here in grenfell and they matter in america they matter all over the world we black people face discrimination brutality and death. They matter also because we now see that actually disproportionate number of people are dying and culvert 90. P. I want to tap into your expertise as a housing expert on you did she apply lloyd my at lloyd my it says every so often we always appear to have a room filled type tragedy with very little or no accountability. Is an inquiry appropriate. Phyllis kind of housing tragedy what do you think i think on the one hand yes because the bin soon ruin porn revelations for a choir he and i have now been made public and are the Public Record whoever everyone can now see the emails from our kind of produce the cladding which demonstrated in you that there was a risk those perks for our lives and its. Advertisers how doing. So hit with an arc i knew that we seeing him out was the set up all sorts of other things and you would never see those with our inquiry they just wouldnt be made it would be really its really all. We know the truth about what happened i think the in order for us to say that justice has been done and in order for change to come about we do need to see criminal prosecutions. I dont i think that the most important thing in terms of making the Construction Industry change is the knowledge that if they. Do you if they create a situation like this and people lose their lives because of it with criminal sanction that will focus minds and so the inquiry is is is a positive force and will deliver hopefully. Our answers to some of the questions that people have but one can be a block on prosecutions and part of that means finishing in a reason to hang tough. Oh my minister be a coward to go out for 20 to show me i just balance what peteris just said do it that the least. To show one sentence if you can do it go for it please thank you. A cynic would say the purpose of any Public Inquiry created by a Prime Minister is to take the spotlight off the government. All right thank you say they should thank you pete and he loki im going to end on a low key track its called the ghosts of rem phil it also features. Michael yo and at the end of this track you see the names of the people who died in the Grenfell Tower fire i cant think of a better way to end this episode of the strain thats watching everybody i leave you with the ghost of graham. Where we see a scene in the water. Where is his rhythm and where is this is. Where is the mom. Where is nora germany where was i was finished brings dinner. And there are now coming up the was there wasnt where it was a mob had thought. Business leaders just want to find a bra spot. For. Business leaders to find a bra spot. That is resistant. In akra people are grabbing social and political issues by the horns. And time to sing creativity. And protest to challenge and change i. D. s. Gun a controversial a witness documentary on aljazeera. Hello im Barbara Starr in london these are the top stories on aljazeera a political witch hunt thats how President Trump has described the u. S. Supreme courts ruling on his tax returns and financial records they came out be made available to new york prosecutors but not yet to congress the Manhattan District Attorney wants the documents as part of a criminal investigation into hush money payments made to women the trump allegedly had affairs with the other ruling concerned committees in the house of representatives who have been investigating potential foreign influence and russian Money Laundering the judge just said that that would need to be decided by a Lower Court Ruling basically starting all over again so they get everybody back down to the work working to sort of you know so what was the point that is going to satisfy me that this is a political witch a life that would not be there if you will disappear which its just like the most. Votes that i want and this is this is political. Where u. S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has applauded the Supreme Courts decision and says congress will continue to press its case our White House Correspondent kimberly how kate has more. Closely says that they will conduct a new investigation so that they will conduct their constitutional right to oversight discraft their arguments a little bit better that was the criticism from the Supreme Court that they hadnt made a convincing argument to and so essentially what she said is we will next