Hello welcome to the show im sam is a than on the afternoon of october the 2nd 2018 journalist who walked into the saudi consulate in istanbul he was never seen alive again now 20 saudi nationals are on trial in turkey accused of involvement in his murder turkish prosecutors charge the suspects in march none of them are present in court theyre being tried in their absence theyre accused of killing cultural g. And dismembering his body his remains ive never been found the case True International condemnation including from the un special rapporteur who spent months investigating the killing will bring our guests in a moment but 1st Charles Stratford takes a look back at the events that unfolded before and after for sure. This is the last moment jamal who shows he was seen alive with the 2nd 2018. The journalist who wrote for the Washington Post newspaper had gone to the saudi consulate in istanbul to get documents he needed for his wedding his turkish fiance had egypt ching has waited for him outside turkish prosecutors say he was murdered his body dismembered and the remains never found 20 saudis indicted for murder to be tried in their absence in a court in Istanbul Police say Security Camera video and photographs show the saudi suspects arriving in istanbul on the day she was killed other Video Evidence shows them checking into a hotel going to the consulate before returning to the airport and leaving that night you stumble prosecutors accuse former deputy head of saudi general intelligence ahmed ella siri a former royal advisor soldo qahtani of instigating murder with monstrous intent the 18 other defendants include this man may have moved tribe who frequently traveled with the Saudi Crown Prince mohammed bin salma on her show shes murder caused widespread revulsion around the world hed been selfimposed exile for around a year because he was afraid of being arrested if he returned home he formally been close to the saudi royal family but in recent years became a vocal critic of the Saudi Crown Prince some western governments and the cia said they believe muhammad bin solomon ordered the killing the kingdom denies that last december a saudi called sentenced 5 men to death and 3 to jail after a long and secretive trial. The uns special rapporteur on extrajudicial summary or arbitrary executions agnes kalama who completed a 6 month investigation into could show his murder so the saudi trial made a mockery of justice none of the guilty were officially named last may he shows his sons said they forgave the murderers Rights Groups said the pardon had been forced color man city was another saudi example of a parody of justice turkey accuses the saudi government of obstructing the Murder Investigation the saudis say the istanbul prosecutor didnt comply with requests to share information the Saudi Crown Prince has denied ordering the murder but admitted bearing responsibility is the kingdoms effective leader stand again for aging can. For sure his fiance how do you teach english says she hopes the trial will at least shed light on where his body is chance transferred al jazeera. Lets bring our panel into the show now we have joining us from london bill law editor of arab digest an online magazine focused on the middle east and north africa in ankara and Vice President at the center for middle Eastern Studies and in istanbul metallik managing editor at the daily sabah welcome to you all if i could start perhaps with meth matt so mamet why now why do you see turkeys putting suspects on trial and absentee almost 2 years after the event. Well i mean it has you know the preparations have taken time and of course listening to and hearing the more than 55. I believe witnesses have taken time and turkey wanted to or the legal authorities wanted to make sure that all the evidence is all the Available Evidence and witnesses are the information from witnesses are gathered and the preparations are done sort of the trial can be laid on a more concrete foundation rather than just doing a symbolic trial so of course this is a trial and if cynthia but its still turkey wants to make sure that this is the despite being in an absentee trial they want to make sure that there is concrete outcome and concrete evidence is are surfacing so that. Ultimately this this trial can be a good ground for taking this case to an International Level so yes it has been about a year and a half nearly 2 years now but of course there has been a proceeding prior to this an investigation that there was a you know there was a trial held in rielle although many says of course it was for show but this things take time the fact that it was a very well planned creamy didnt murder and you know simply we dont even know where the body needed time to be they probably investigator let me take that to bill Lauren London sobell this trial likely to be on much stronger ground than the trial which we saw in saudi arabia right. We have i think it is a saudi trial in itself and its going to mark said it was a farce we still dont even know the names of individuals whove been sentenced to death those 5 individuals 3 other sense that you know were talking about 20 people really turks are looking at the Turkish Court system is looking at so if you add the 5 its really going to come up with 8 so thats thats at least 12 people missing from the charge sheet in saudi arabia and i think that the the trial yes of course it will be on stronger ground i dont know yet the details of how open the court case will be open it will be quite open and i think many people including. The all say and it just goes who needs to know where the remains of her. Fiance is. But other people true will want to get more details well want to find out just how heavily involved the crown prince robyns armaan is was in in this in this killing we will we will hopefully get more information on not front i think it will prove a big embarrassment to the saudis as to why its happening now i think that there are geo political reasons as well for the turks to take the decision to to really open this trial and which will be as i said hugely embarrassing so you dont think this is just a matter of of the timing at least not being just a matter of getting the evidence together. Well i think i think that the turks have moved very very cautiously and judiciously on assembling the evidence but after all the saudis and the turks are engaged in in more than really a spat the saudis are annoyed very annoyed with turkey support for qatar and the g. C. C. Feud the turks have pretty well pushed saudi arabia out of any influence in syria i think that the saudis and the a marauder you look at stance that turkey support for the g. N. A. T. In libya against. Their will or that they support i think the timing yes of course it took them time to assemble the evidence they want it to be rock solid if you will but i do think the timing is also linked to this broader joke political tug of war thats going on in the region and which turkey is very much involved in now all right lets if we can bring ismail into the discussion ismail if we had a saudi trial ended with convictions i think its fair to say we can expect theres going to be a few convictions here in this trial where does that go though in your convicting perhaps people an absentee a where theres any ruling go after that is there any way to implement it or escalated. Yes and before coming to coming to the fore answering your this question i wanted to comment on bills. Argument yes it is correct about the timing but about this issue should be considered it is a legal proceeding so i mean of course for Legal Proceedings that there are many details need to because bring together turkey needed to allow this proceeding to continue because there is a violation of so anything of turkey so this ever took place in in turkey in istanbul and of course. Turkey turkish judicial body they need to take some action about this so thats why we need to underline that this is the process had to had to be done and it is it is a it is a legal proceeding ok you know if that point where will it go well as the Legal Process go after this well its just a whole ruling that remains unimplemented. No no of course i mean. We have 18. People. Being tried for it exploded you kill killing and too poor is the gating so if there is a ruling for that probably that will be an International Air arrest warrant as a result of this but. As bill also argued that some part of this process is related beat the original theyre reluctant i mean there is an obviously competition between turkey and emirate young saudi active this is also there is also relation with this. Aspect. But of course these all what i mean this might be are you saying that the the future course of this trial takes might be impacted by the future political dynamics between these countries actually actually i dont i mean i dont the necessarily are good that because i mean this Court Proceeding will continue. Under the umbrella of the of the court but the of course. Of course the regional competition. Will also continue during this time and that might be some effect from this regional competition as rough weather so we go back to bill when theres an International Arrest warrant go can this case. Then turn into some kind of International Criminal investigation on the u. N. Auspices. Well i could do i think really what it does do is limit it and get convictions are secured it limits the ability of these people really to travel to a lot of places that they would like to go to not just the United States and i think it really is on mom and mans ability to travel hes staying now a great place to close to home yet this is a person who likes to parade himself in western countries memorably he came to london and there was a huge just play on taxi cabs and on posters of this young prince it looked really rather tacky to most peoples eyes but its example of how keenly he likes this kind of cult of personality this will i think inhibit him i think those around him sort of upon the end and alice city who are very much implicated in this in this in this criminal act i think that theyre not going to be going anywhere anytime soon and certainly to countries that could in fact arrest them well you mentioned the crown prince let me bring mehmet into this what is the likelihood that this trial is going to implicate the crown prince of saudi arabia in a much more direct legal way than weve seen so far the whether its from the un special rapporteur investigation or the cia report well i think ultimately if this case is not carried or abroad to an International Legal platform it is very unlikely that those who are directly responsible for this incident to be brought to account so this simple answer what does i mean where you think well end up with with a sort of result that. Looks at the culpability or liability of the sort of 2nd line in command rather than the very highest level. I believe so because unless there is a Concern International consensus and International Unity with regards to how we are dealing with a brutal murder of a journalist. Saudi journalist a less there is a consensus that m. B. s was being directly linked to this i think its very difficult to actually hold. M. B. s i mean hold him responsible and bring him to account and make him pay for this crime because of course this is a legal matter but we also know all the trump m. E. s relationship we also know that the western leaders and m. B. s relationship of course they are paid some lip service and condemnation remarks came but whether or not they will let go of the military. d military or defense agreements whether or not they will be able to let go or geostrategic position of saudi arabia for their interests whether or not they will be able to go let go some of the energy and matter that there are very few analysts who seem to think that that is likely to be the case that countries are going to you know overlook their bilateral interests business interests in favor of pursuing the principle of justice right let me take that 1. 2 is smile and say you know ultimately if this trial is to bring some pressure on International Actors particularly those powers in the Security Council for this to go into a sort of international u. N. Investigation or International Trial criminal trial. What does this trial have to do this turkish trial have to do does it need to bring new evidence to Public Knowledge does it need to build pressure and public opinion. Yes there is there is a possibility in this regard because as we know that not all the evidence so far has been available for the general public so when this investigation became much deeper that might be some possibility that the new evidence that could be bringing to the publics attention and of course from the very beginning turkey to what michael thing maybe well see the recordings released or something perhaps even more sense to them that i mean i mean this is of course i cant know from now on because there is even if i know there is a judicial process but but let me tell you that the turkey. Turkey is the. Priority in the very beginning was the fact that International Institutions should be involved in this in the indias the indian issue and if that is if there needs to be an international Court Proceeding it must be done because. This was a this was. Openly a murder case and turkey wanted those worries was the bill for this to be judged and and punished if it is if it is necessary and of course there is another dynamic in this but maybe i can tell that as we know that in turkey that is there are big number of who are distant from many countries especially from the middle Eastern Countries and such at such a nerd or such and such as is didnt what is what. Would have the risk to instigate further evidence like this 30 wanted to really give the message that the it cant tolerate any other incident like this because turkey is a safe haven for those who are big or pressed by their own regimes so turkey welcomed many of the figures from Different Countries and they can stay here as long as they. They are are ok with the turkish law and. Dynamix thought there is a really long as well thats a really important point you made thats a really important interesting point i want to take it back to mamma and say briefly so in the calculation of the authorities in turkey are they looking for a result you know is the reason that theyve really pushed hard on this case to at least you know is their goal to make a stand for turkish for respect of turkish sovereignty in the sort of actions shouldnt continue is that really the end game rather than really hoping that there will ultimately be justice for germany by pursuing this. The this case is very multidimensional i mean several things we need to listener 1st of all turkeys at the very bottom level is turkeys approach to this incident is immaterial they want to know where the body is and they want to know they want to make sure those who are responsible for this murder to be brought to justice secondly they want to make sure that. You know a case like this cannot happen in turkey and it should not give a message to those others who are willing to or thinking of or planning to give a message to their own descent living in turkey that turkey is not a safe country and ultimately turkey wants to make sure that a criminal act happening within its border to be to be brought to justice within the National Courts and ultimately and after that brought to to to a platform in the International Arena of course having said the it doesnt mean we should also highlight and its not a secret that there is rivalry between turkey and saudi arabia geopolitically and there is rivalry particularly between the turkish government and b. S. Himself of course m. P. s wanted to propagate himself with an image of reformist but i think this whole issue has put a big dent on that image now turkey has been saying from the beginning that yes this is a you know and incident that perhaps was directed by some high figures in riyadh but this is not a bilateral matter of bilateral issues so turkey wants to make sure that given several messages 1st of all something that happens within its border it will not just push be pushed under the carpet because turkey is not a regime like what what you know the regime in riyadh to do like column art says a parody. Just a parody of justice right and they want to be. Sure this is transparent proceedings and in fact todays in todays trial news was present u. N. Reports or as president some jerk journalists were present so there is of course the geopolitical part of the turkey saudi arabia relationship ok i think that the government in ankara wants to exclude that from the file a bill how much international appetite is there right now to turn this into something bigger. Well thats interesting i think you know with everything thats going on with the 19 with the black lives matter i think people are looking you know for reassurance that there remains a moral highground and i think one of the things that has disturbed many people including myself because it was it was a colleague of mine is the extent to which donald trump has been almost a coconspirator in this effort to push this all under the carpet now trump as were discovering is vulnerable. We may look forward to a truck free america in a few months time there is a lot of anger in the senate and congress too or saudi arabia its particularly do with. Oil and the effort really to drive the American Oil Industry into the into the ground if i can put it that way so their oil sector is really angry with the saudis theyre angry with m. B. A. s and of course they are also many senators and powerful senators in the porters of trumper are not happy with the yemen war so n. B. S. Is vulnerable and i think the combination of this kind of search now for a moral high ground that you know will help to elevate and push this story back onto the front pages and i i do commend that turkish governments insistence that it be a trial that is forensic thats thought through properly because its only that way that the real truth i hope will emerge and i think the truth whatever comes out will continue to damage might have been some not at a time really when he needs deliver on this huge lead make of the saudi economy vision 2030 which is now stalling out hes continued us all right huge amount i think weve got family bill weve got 60 seconds left on to give the because youve raised a really interesting point its my own to what extent in 60 seconds do you think that anchor is is calculating the might be a chance for International Traction if theres a change in upcoming u. S. Elections on this issue. I mean this is of course turkeys point talkies not related. With the elections in the United States i mean the process the Legal Process proceedings will continue in turkey and if it is. If it is there if it is a concluded read or reread with the murder conviction down probably it will be taken to an International Level turkey at least turkey will what it is but will try to do this and it is there how the search for justice could be actually have to be made actually all right well well end it there. Gas for really interesting discussion weve had bill law is no mantell g. And challenged thank you all for for joining us on that one and thank you for watching you can see the show again of course any time by visiting our website out 0 dot com for further discussion head over to our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story can also join the conversation on twitter our handle there is ak a. J. Inside story from me sam is a them and the whole team here for now its goodbye. 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