The u. S. Imposes visa bans on chinese officials in retaliation for beijings policies in. The un and also call for action to defend human rights in china but will the International Pressure lead to change this is its own story. Hello and welcome to the program on iran come on the United States is taking its 1st steps in response to beijings National Security law for hong kong secretary of state mike pompei it is imposing visa restrictions on Chinese CommunistParty Leaders he didnt reveal any names but he says they current and former officials believe to be responsible for undermining human rights in all kong which china says the law is needed to restore order after months of protests that have turned violent at times its bypassing hong kongs legislature to push through the measure of the law would ban socalled axis of those and terrorism and for the 1st time allow beijing to set up a Security Office in the territory. The Chinese Embassy in washington is urging the u. S. To end mediately correct its mistake withdraw the decision and stop interfering in chinas Domestic Affairs it adds that no one has the right to make what it calls a responsible comments on hong kong and its not just the u. S. Expressing concerns on friday a Un Human Rights Panel demanded decisive international measures to protect human rights citing hong kong as well as abuses against minorities and the territories are saying jang and Tibet European Union leaders raised the same issues with chinese politicians during a e. U. China summit earlier in the week my pump has called on the u. S. And europe to confront china together the United States is not forcing europe to choose between the free world were trying as a 3rd carrying vision china is making that choice between freedom and democracy its tempting for many particularly in our business communities to make money in china to say we must calm tensions simply accept recently belligerent c. C. P. Thats nonsense dont accept that argument there is no compromise between freedom various i dont want the future to be shaped by the c. C. P. And id wager. No one of the skull wants that either. Lets introduce our panel in beijing vic to go chairman and professor at university in the german city of lipstick i dont need director of China Policy Center and in singapore i feel open tucci senior associate fellow at the Royal United Services institute a warm welcome to your let me begin in beijing with you victor gale a National Security law in hong kong being put in by china a Security Office being placed since the 1st time that china took over the territory in 1907 from the brits this despite assurances to the british that actually hong kong would always remain hong kong was chinese justification for this well hong kong will always remain as hong kong the one country 2 system will continue up to. 2847. 00 and nothing will be changed in hong kong now every country has a National Security law the british does have that the United States have that what china is doing for hong kong now is no more than what the british had in hong kong prior to 997. 00 just imagine anyone would do anything in hong kong prior to 99. 00 this summer which would threaten the National Security interest of British Empire or the British Government or the british monarch for example no way its not possible the british rulers before 997 would never tolerate any such threat to the british National Security interest it is the same case for china we know what china what hong kong has experienced over the past a year or even over the past 4 years or so and i think this National Security law is very much targeted against any person any Political Force which wants to use hong kong. A threat to challenge chinas sovereignty over hong kong and to china challenge the one country 2 system principle in hong kong lets bring adam me here in adam youve heard the justification for the law that for the Security Office what do you think. It was certainly i think. I think i think certainly theres an argument that every country has such a law however i think in this case its slightly different you know. The professor refers to. How u. K. Was not different but we have to remember that u. K. Was a clone your power and the p. R. C. Does not claim to be a clone your power instead claims to be if claims to be the right for sovereign of of home cause its a very different position that the p. R. C. Now occupies and what we think about one country 2 systems i think of the laws to take it also. I think over the last decade or so we have seeing it encroach from our beijing on that system and the changing definition i think it was always in big us what one country 2 systems meant and increasingly beijing is pushing the goalposts and the latest National Security law is an example of that. Under the under the sino under to sign a british declaration as well as the as well as the basic law of Hong Kong Hong kong is guaranteed a high degree of autonomy in different areas that is not a is is certainly not available to other cities on in the mainland. And weve seen a gradual erosion of that lets bring in rafael opened 2 g. Here in singapore. How much of this is simply that china is actually too big too powerful to actually listen to anybody even by putting visa restrictions on Chinese CommunistParty Members isnt going to stop it from introducing this law having the Security Office and continuing down the path its going down to when it comes to human rights abuses you know its going to be very difficult to see how the world is going to push back on what china has done beyond d the sort of thunder that weve heard i think the United Kingdom has done a very good and proper thing. Which is offer extended sort of blanket of protection in terms of offering so you know full of citizenship or entry to british beer no holders sort of hold a special documents which is sort of dealing continue between hong kong and the United Kingdom but i think the fundamental problem is that from chinas perspective this is not really seen as a Foreign Policy issue from chinas perspective hong kong is another chinese city that had this kind of special situation but ultimately it was a city which is going to be brought which is going to be which is part of china so from their perspective this is a domestic question so from that perspective when youre trying to get a country to change its behavior towards its own citizens within its own territory youre treading on very difficult ground because ultimately whatever youre doing is something which is going to be perceived by the leadership as an erosion of its power before its own people which makes it very difficult to know how it is going to actually change this sort of behavior especially when youre looking at a power like china which as you know which is now the worlds 2nd largest economy which is you know on its way to developing a sort of substantial military force and is becoming a real power sort of in the world you know its going to be very difficult to see how youre going to get this sort of a power to make the decision to do something which it perceives as being nearly as i think mr garrett professor sort of articulate in his comments you know the sort of continued normalization of hong kongs role as a chinese city. To go china is becoming a power it is becoming a very powerful nation to paraphrase stanley the great graphic novel novelist with great power comes great responsibility china surely is getting to the stage where it does have to take seriously the International Community. Absolutely i think china is one of the countries which actually shows the highest level of respect for the International Community treating all countries big or small as equals treating the nations and other International Organizations with a high level of respect chinas not manhandling any other country or any other International Organizations and i would say china is a shining example of treating the rest of the world as an equal even though all it has the largest population in the world even though by p. P. P. Chinas already had larger than that of the United States so i would say treating other countries with the respect of treating other International Organizations with all respect is a bust for any country china include it and i think china will continue to do that Going Forward enough as a sovereign over Hong Kong China will not tolerate any attempt to use hong kong to constitute a threat to chinas National Security interests look at what happened over the past year you see a lot of our marquee and attack kong rule of law arson attack innocent passengers in the streets for example and kankar as a democracy has full Legal Protection for law for protests and demonstrations but many of these things are not lawful protests are demonstrations they are illegal and if you do the investigation you are realize that there are Foreign Forces behind it aiding and abetting fire to this political unrest in hong kong this is exactly it what this National Security law is aimed about i think the people who will be targeted by the National Security law will be very very small because the majority of the people in hong kong have no interest in challenging china sovereignty over hong kong or overthrowing the communist. Of china or seriously undermining the one country 2 system in hong kong a further plan to just see you shaking your head in disagreement tell me what you think well i think its you know i think this narrative that weve heard frequently from beijing that there are Foreign Forces stirring this problem up in hong kong i think is exactly part of the problem because i dont think that is the root of what were seeing in hong kong what were seeing in hong kong is a public that is very concerned about what is going to happen to them and is very concerned about beijings continuing expressions of power over them yes it is true it is not everybody in hong kong there are people in hong kong who agree with what beijing is doing but there is a substantial minority majority its very difficult to tell exactly what the numbers are who are really unhappy and very concerned and that is what were seeing in the protests on the street and its very concerning when we hear voices from beijing blaming this on foreigners because it sort of misses the point that you have got a population in hong kong who are really concerned about their future about whats going to happen to them and theyre the ones who are really stirring these protests are now of course there are some elements within there who are turning to violence who do need to be dealt with but the fundamental point of these protests are real articulations of anger and concern about what is going to happen to their country just need to go back and look at the peaceful protests youve seen in hong kong. I forget exactly when now but in sort of past year or beyond you know to see that many hundreds of thousands of hong kong as a really concerned you know we saw the 1st to give nations of these protests when china was there when there was a discussion about changing the laws on extradition from hong kong and then weve seen the rearticulated now around the National Security go so there is something really going on here that i think beijing needs to engage with and not simply point fingers at Foreign Forces who they say are stirring these problems up i think by doing that youre really sort of missing the point of the root of the problem and in some ways. This is exactly what everyone else is worried about when they look at how beijing articulate this particular legislation because as others you correctly pointed out it makes sense to have some sort of National Security legislation in much the same way as it makes sense to have some sort of an extradition law you dont want to have a place where a no rapists and murderers can go and hide absolutely not but the point is the way its being implemented and the way its being articulated is clearly something thats a great concern to the public in hong kong and i think that is the issue that needs being gauges rather than you know simply pointing to you know dark Foreign Forces that are stirring things up which frankly there is very little evidence adamy weve heard about human rights abuses by china when it comes to the treatment of the week as the week of muslims when it comes to internet restrictions attacks on journalists and the list goes on and on so of course there is concern from people for example in hong kong that that could start taking place within the territory itself china has always said that these are internal issues that this is a about the internal domestic politics but when it does come to human rights abuses by the Chinese State how concerned are you. Yeah i mean certainly in me as well as International Community. Is increasingly concerned about the widespread human rights abuses in china especially in relation to determine kempson change um. I mean these are wise spread well documented abuses of human rights because of course beijing sees that as a domestic issue. But thats increasingly building you know well amounting to not amount the International Community and i think rightly so how beijing how beijing acts internally is going to at some stage reflected in its International Actions and i think we should be gravely concerned about what is happening china in terms of human rights i think to get out early you talked about respect for nations that china has respect for other nations other nations are now increasingly becoming very critical of the chinese Foreign Policy chinese human rights record and now my pump has taken this step to ban certain Chinese Communist party leader members what does that do to the chinese america relationship. Well this is very unfortunate as and i think it is very ironic as one editor in china well said today at this particular time when the called in 1000 makers region and reconfirmed havoc in the United States who wants to go to the United States. Side think is really barking up the wrong tree now is talking about boycotting Chinese People or chinese officials to goal to the United States the carbon is partly of china the ruling party of china has a membership almost 19000000 people including all the important government officials starseed really want to ban all the members of the governing party of china from going to the United States not thats not realistic now what does he really expect does he really expect the chinese authorities banned pompei all himself from visiting china any more though this kind of manhandling is not helping the United States and is not going to change the position of china over this National Security law in hong kong at the National Security law is carving storm and its going to be implemented and anyone who wants to use hong kong as a platform to challenge and threaten chinas National Security will be dealt with as such period thats the end of the story saw you need to accept this megatrend and deal with china as it is this is not showing disrespect to the that states this is exactly how china and the United States need to deal with each other there are people in washington were still indulging fantasies that they can do things to hold china to the ground without consequences those days are gone forever the United States need to give china minimum equal treatment and respect otherwise consequences will attach to these man had linked tactics of the United States refer youve heard some very strong words there from victim is seemingly a defiant stance from beijing theyre not going to listen what do you think how do you make china listen how do you make china listen to legitimate International Concerns. Well i think you know there is something to the fact that we are dealing with a power here which is very strong and becoming stronger and is clearly got a mood at the moment which is very confrontational very much not minded to stand down to any sort of adverse or is and actually if we look at whats been happening with china and somebody neighbors over the past few months for example clashes and india for example some of the war rhetoric that weve seen in kazakhstan some of the smaller level clash we see in russia as well of course as all the ones happening on china seas with hong kong with taiwan. Japan you know were seeing china which is really sort of seeming willing to pick fights all over the place and is entirely clear to me why this sort of mood has taken off in beijing but i think what it does reflect is the 5 youve got the power of the moment to feel very confident of itself and theres a lashing on all directions now i think the one element i would impress upon d you know colleagues and friends in beijing to remember is that you know you may dismiss some of these concerns that people have about you know treatment of domestic populations as you know interference in your affairs but i think the point i think adam sort of hinted towards was that you know if the way the world to look at this is those who if the countrys going to treat people like this and how its going to treat the rest of us already we can see this narrative quite dominant with the United States we look at the protests in the United States we see what reflection that has on the United States on the global stage so i think thats an important element the chinese forgets is that you know how you articulate yourself to yourself how you express yourself to your own people is reflected especially when you get to the stage of being a large power not to your specific question about what the world can kind of do about some of these issues within china it is very challenging i think where we have seen evidence of possible shifts in chinese behavior is often when we see things dealt with it a very sort of micro individual level. So weve seen the kind of International Community you know lobby very specifically about certain individuals seen specific companies being pressured to sort of with drew we have seen some evidence of sort of movement but there is it is very difficult here and it is going to be very even going to be even harder i think to get china to change its behavior as you see it Going Forward but i think the key thing from everyones perspective is there would like to see a china that is you know behaving in a way on the world stage that is kind of reflective of the clearly you know great power that is rising to be at the moment i think to a lot of people around the world there is a great deal of concern about the sort of power that were seeing china articulating itself and that i think is the root of a lot of clashes are other me what do you think do you think china will ever become a responsible player like the in the way that those described. Well i mean it depends on what you mean by responsible play i mean this certainly the narratives about china being a responsive stakeholder has being you know partly partly driving the shift in u. S. d policy the idea or rather you know the reconstruction of the history that the u. S. d had engaged china on basis that china was going to liberalize and become a responsible power and now that they found out that Chinese Communist party had no intention of becoming the kind of power that the americans wanted it to be i think that kind of narrative as much as a historical as that is driving us policy towards china and indeed rising side ease in a lot of different places in the world about china china that is backsliding in terms of its its protection for human rights and its its political system towards a more liberal direction on the sheet of china that is increasingly becoming more powerful and is welling to assert its interest on the International Stage including with coercive tools so of course thats going to create worries amount Different Countries around the world and i think increasingly as weve talked about before china has to recognize that that genuine grievances both domestically so in this case in hong kong and inching john in other places but as well as internationally amount its International Partners and competitors. About a whole range of issues and china has to be pragmatic about these International Concerns and actually deal with them instead of seeing it through the lens of trying to contain china per se i want to ask all 3 of you this the same question im going to begin in beijing with vic to go how much of this is actually because the u. S. As a superpower is in decline we are seeing the rise of russia we are seeing the rise of china and given that china believes that the u. S. Is in decline it can simply do what it wants is that a factor in beijing beijing thinking. I think china and the United States need to get along whether when china was much smaller than the United States whether now china is already larger than the United States in terms of coaches in power parity but china will be larger than the United States in about 10 years time by official Exchange Rate calculation all whether al gore have to disturb you guys to get around to get a lot of the running out of time so let me begin with i dont need you think a lot of this is to do with the fact that america has declined as a superpower. I think some of it has to do with american decline decline there is a change in the relative lisa power in the way that you know china is more confident about its place in the world and the ability of it to get its way so on the one hand you have a rising china on the other hand you have a declining United States and its in that uncertain period of transition of flux that i think is most dangerous refer to what are your thoughts. Nature abhors a vacuum and i think thats what weve seen happening in the past few years of the United States sort of essentially removing itself from the world stage youve created a situation with no great power sitting at its core and within that system weve seen all sorts of powers moving in to try to fill that vacuum in the different ways i think whats worrisome to me is that its not clear to me that anyone can actually fill that vacuum which is why were in such a dangerous moment now where we have all these powers that it clearly seeing theres a moment for them to sort of bump into this place but none of them are actually able to do it and so as a result we get lashing out in all directions we are clashes we get miscommunications and misunderstandings and we get this very chaotic International Situation the recount is stuck in. Thanks for the incredibly interesting conversation that was vic to get out of me and rafael pun tucci and thank you to you for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website out a 0 dot com and for further discussion go to our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story and you can also join the conversation on twitter we are at a j inside story for me imran khan and the entire team here into life and. As countries begin easing coronavirus restrictions scientists warn of a 2nd wave of infections in the last few days. In front of the neighborhood and many feel the economy is being tired ties to both human life until fall to pull yet again the focus is on the outfield because i can pull that 1000 places we bring you the latest developments from across the globe coronavirus content a special coverage on a. Aljazeera. Every. On counting the calls of europe at a crossroads of deals with a rising china and a u. S. 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