This is the moment to stop all military action this is the moment. Im fighting every night to meet with global news makers the stories the. 0. I am fairly ok your age the stream the question today how could or should be covered 19 changed the range that we didnt business we will be on track in the Global Economy in 25 minutes or less im going to need a team to do that and i think i have just the people to help us do its hello they grace introduce yourself to our audience. Hi fi me im so im grace blankly im a writer at u. B. Magazine im on my last year released a book called stolen how to save the world from financialization about how finance has changed the way that capitalism what its good to have you grace hello there p. J. Tell everybody your. Nice to be with your family in greer said rebecca. The director of Tri Continental Institute for social research were best in argentina brazil south africa and india thanks for coming to the stream and rebecca lovely to have you tell everybody you are family thanks for inviting me my name is Rebecca Henderson im a professor at the Harvard Business school where i designed and taught a course called reimagining capitalism i just published a book called reimagining capitalism in a world on fire and i am all about how business must should and can help solve the enormous mess were in right great to have you guess were also streaming on you tube so you armchair economists an armchair pundits this is your moment you can weigh in in the chat and you can be part of that conversation as well i want to start with no fees are made hes the executive director a systems shift lap that is a group of researchers who are looking at sustainability and the future of avarice economies this is how the feast think we should start off the conversation so listen. Its not. All of them its problems we have to rethink our economy we. Relays it through means here of resistance in the economy not nice rethinking everything music groups that are. Nice really turns her blood moving away from this more. Interventionist compressive behavior towards more corporate ish alls and living. Together and. The wire and with it out that is a lot of rethinking im just wondering what has happened weve covered 9000. 00 that we are starting to think about how do we do business differently each place you start. Yes so as you said there was a lot a lot to unpack and knifing statement by think you know the pro thrust of what we just heard is quite right we are going to need to transform the way to. Do business if were going to adapt to climate break doubt but one thing i would add to that i think and i think this is something that the 1000. 00 pandemic brings out as well is that there is a question that how it is doing the saying interests its the adoption takes place but of course you can imagine a kind of adoption to climate breakdown that really insulates the most powerful from having to i suppose payback for the impact that theyve had on the environment which we know has been more extreme than the impact that the least will have had on him which the costs of that transition are actually imposed on those who have done the least to cause it particularly the. Kind of who are People Living in in the global south where the Climate Crisis is likely to have the greatest impact so yes i agree with this idea that we need to rethink the way that the economy works but i also think that we need to do so basically youre informed by an analysis of closs which will allow us to understand where climate breakdown comes from which is from the internal dynamics of capitalism and also how we need to transform our economy and society in order to deal with that. Rebecca i just. Go ahead and i did i just remind you that the Global Pandemic was announced by the w. H. O. On january the 30th now were at the end of genes and were looking at 5 months and 5 months are we rethinking our economy rebecca go ahead. I want to leap on that idea for me because i i think that Opening Statement was amazing but my 1st thought was how how are we going to do that and i think graces has sort of pointed the way but we need to be very clear we need to make it very expensive to burn through the plant so you know technically some kind of price or regulation on carbon and topsoil and the oil and poisoning the ocean but we need to change the rules of the game so that we get to the place we want to go and what does that mean tighter pollution regulation really addressing inequality making sure everyone can participate or no ones going to be up for you know everyone has to have a stake in our society otherwise theyre going to say well you change your way of life i dont want to change mine and last but not least we have to i think really reinvent democracy so that the rich are no longer in charge of making the rules rebecca my jaw just dropped before that remember how do you do that baby do you go for it im just like you just said no revenge democracy let me just get rid. Of the back of that because because that was a jaw dropping mom. Super quick yes in too many parts of the world the rich are making the rules in the u. S. 70 percent of the population says the system is rigged and the Political ScienceResearch Says they may well be right so we need to get money out of politics we need to recreate civics so that people feel that they can vote they are voting and their vote makes a difference and we have to somehow find a place in the middle in the middle of the political argument well. We can act more cooperatively understand that we all have a stake in our society and in moving forward and lastly business has to be a part of this because business has that actively dissing government saying it doesnt matter it isnt important business has to come to the table and say we need to build a just and Sustainable Society we need a genuine democracy. B. J. Go ahead oh yeah ok thanks for having me i have a problem in an economist tip when we talk of but really you would do it like we. Did were its a very Unequal World and yet in some parts of the world in some countries in some states in vietnam for instance their reaction to the pandemic of different then in the incompetent parts of the world like in the United States or in brazil in vietnam they have been no its because they have a vibrant Public Sector and they have a vibrant public action vietnam shares with china 1000 kilometer border its not an ocean away and yet they had no fatalities the government followed a science based attitude the government immediately in that did the Public Sector to produce much needed goods and they have not atomize this society they have neighborhood groups trade unions and so on that immediately went into action public action is something that just doesnt come out of you know the ito when you create a society where youve destroyed public action youve destroyed unions youve destroyed peoples organizations people dont know how to act without the stick and if the state is incompetent then youre left to yourself youre an individual in cuba 24000 medical students left their dormitories and they went out then tested 11000000 people thats 11000000 people thats the entire population of cuba so why is it that these socialist states have been able to better handle the and demick then these capitalistic states with the incompetent leaders like donald trump and yet about sonar. Rebecca grace do you want to take that or can i just leap on it the chair i am in other violent agreement. T. J. Im in violent agreement with almost everything you said with one exception so where do i agree Healthy Society stand on 3 foundations the free market a strong transparent capable state and a very vigorous. Deeply rooted Civil Society and i completely agree with you that the problem in states like brazil and the us is we have too long negated and run down both Civil Society and government we need to build those back up and get them into balance my only point of disagreement is youre talking of vietnam a socialist i think of vietnam as a balanced economy with a strong free market strong Civil Society and strong government the kind of state that we should all the kind of society we should all be trying to build. So thats i you know i think the idea of coming up with a Statement Like a Healthy Society is these 3 principles the question is who came up with that who decided that a Healthy Society is a free market is a you know Civil Society is a Democratic State im not sure that these are universal principles you know they dont come from abraham or from god or whatever people have to develop their own understanding of the society they want to live in new people have to struggle to ship their world not in use it to be more democracy i broadly agree with you that means there needs to be different ways for people to create the society im very opposed to having you know this sort of general universal principles or how this is is i dont think thats going to have a morning forward. Right so in moving forward youre going to inject for a moment no its not going right back to young and coming in your direction anyway so we asked our online audience about capitalism and whether we should be just going back to business as normal this is what they told us asunder what they told us on twitter and. The nikkei i am not so sure that the real problem is capsaicin itself but the way it is practiced no other system will be good if its not practice in a humane way it gives you another thought here from lucky besides its roots in genocide and slavery people are realizing its colonial ground for stripping people of human rights and security the equitable and secure living of the masses cant be done without undoing capitalism at one law this is Steven Steven steven and i say seamus is starting to make sense these days but i guess were not ready for that discussion yet i think that grace is ready for that discussion this is a. Piece that she wrote not so long ago how the Coronavirus Crisis is pitting tactile ism against democracy grace x. And. I think the problem that we have in the problem that were seeing in this conversation is that we too often kind of think about capitalism in the abstract we think about it as a system as you say based on free markets you know a certain amount of state intervention and you know a series of other rules and institutions that govern those markets in their states whereas actually you know if you look at the Historical Development of capitalism as a system and you start to realize that the various crises that are associated with cops Less Development and not kind of contingent. Coincidences that have come about as a result of you know leaders failing or. You know individuals they are actually inherent to the nature of that system itself i think were increasingly seeing that when it comes to the coronavirus com demick i think you know something we were just we were just discussing was whether or not we need free markets to have a Healthy Society is a very very obvious that we do know how to free markets under capitalism on the one hand you know the level of market concentration that we are seeing in many sectors today is astounding its more significant than any other point in history over the course of the pandemic the largest full. Days to compose by market capitalization of the entire s. And p. 500. 00 index thats a staggering level of monopoly power that those companies have at the same time you have Central Banks and states providing endless amounts of loans and actually free money in the form of quantitative easing that as then plowed into the Financial Sector which is found its way to corporations have been able to borrow very very cheaply. That up to the kind of corporate debt problem that we had before this crisis which is manifesting itself now hot free markets we have markets that constructed markets are constructed in the interests of the powerful and that isnt something thats as i said coincidental its not something we just expect a tin create around with the system is an inherent part of the way that capitalism was how do we deal with that but that was the question was. Kind of looking at in my article where youre starting to see monopoly power and actually state control over the cost the economy but in the interests of the powerful expound so much during this time what can we do in order to push back against that and what i think we need is not just political democracy political democracy of an obviously needs to be deep and on broad and particularly in places like the u. K. We still have the next and Democratic Institutions like the house of lords we also need economic democracy in israel to extend the principles of political democracy into the realm of the economy whether that comes in the form of you know the building up of cooperatives of work or ownership of law school large corporations or great Public Ownership and public Democratic Ownership where Workers Service users and actually society as a whole have a say in how our economy what gets kludgey we need to subpoena a go well professor binnacle is thinking about this from a global south perspective what is covert 19 giving us an opportunity to look into what are the fault lines at 1000 has exposed this is what she told us earlier its been demick do deal 2 faces of humanity bunches of hunger unemployment and poor people dying without. The other she is living by that and make use of communities reaching out to help others with through it and support this whole and future hope i believe governments must built health care and social protection for all and communities should cooperate to transform our food systems and actually go systems this could create millions of jobs most of all human cooperation rather than competition should be the center point of our economic model. Just wondering if this is an Incredible Opportunity that we have a Global Economy shut down for about 5 months going to take a while to build back up again this is a reset surely. Its absolutely said i think the important issue on the table femi is the debt question 11. 00 trillion dollars of debt external debt burden on the developing countries this needs to be immediately cancelled this trillion dollar sic x. Havens you know if you dont cancel the debt youre going to make it impossible for most of the world to rebuild their Public Sector just give you a quick example from jamaica the i. M. F. Is insisted that jamaica hoard Public Sector wages down what that is meant is for the last several decades the jamaican government which it you know really runs the Public Sector health sector. As an. Age as the jamaican nurse has. Come because the n. H. S. From the then comes private hospitals through from the United States and the us is out of jamaica but to make us help us it so it is time we cannot look back at this idea of the. East at stake. Here to me is our. Stands are really changing how they think about. Firms are of elite changing how they think about engaging after covert they are trying to raise wages they are looking at being much more inclusive i think the pandemic has really shaken up the private sector graces critics criticisms are very well taken i think a lot of Business People are beginning to worry that society has become completely out of balance and theyre open to having a conversation about rebalancing society i was working recently with the c. E. O. Of a Major Insurance Company and he discovered that. 10 percent of his workforce was working on minimum wage they had to work 2 jobs they were on food stamps he said this is ridiculous lets just raise the wages and he found that that led to a much better productivity much more engagement im hearing from c. E. O. After c. E. O. Whos beginning to really move in what would be a 6 months ago considered extraordinary direction so yes i think this is a moment for reset and im just going to look here at each of grace and for a couple of the ideas at you and you can do an instant reaction who had. Been part of our conversation as a result of care could that negatively impact all types and level of economy could actually kill have to listen. While im not sure about that im not sure over the courage of ours is quite powerful enough to destroy all of the Political Economic and social systems upon which life all around the wild well within which life around the world is is is is linked well i would say. The pandemic is kind of accelerating many of the problems that already existed within the kind of capitalism that were living in today and really is a kind of capitalism thats characterized by continuous crises generated in part by the combination of. Rising inequality which is associated with him on to the returns in the real economy at the same time as we have this financial ised economic model this is periodic booms and busts in Financial Markets now if you look back over the last kind of 20 years were actually not you look back over the last kind of 40 years you can see the cycle of breman boss take place and that is you know a financial driven by a kind of mania in a particular asset market obviously before the financial crisis that was housing more recently its been a high yield corporate debt so risky corporate debt that money is then kind of flooding into the soup is that euphoria ends you see a big crash out of the question what the state does off to those crashes take place what weve seen is the state steadily loosening Monetary Policy so consing Interest Rates and always deconstructing this the same as that of quantitative easing of asset purchases and we have really starting to see states activity in the global north directed towards targeting asset prices that means basically keeping the wealthy wealthy wow that is potentially enough to save capitalism from some of its own problems and contradictions but whether or not its enough to actually deliver rising Living Standards for the vast majority of people is an open question and i dont think that it is. Recommendable never to you from this one is from clovis one danette a and clearly says it took ikea one weekend to go back to sales volume prior to the pandemic we really going to see any long term changes. Clovis what a wonderful question i hope so ive really hope so. Our system is really in a bad way we need to make some major changes grayson vigil and i disagree on exactly what but we all agree major change im guessing you feel the same way i think we will we see in the closing down of thousands of firms half in the us half half of black americans and half of latin x. Americans are financially struggling with seeing a major social movement half of the students at the Harvard Business school think capitalism is roku i think were going to see change. Is a good point for me to bring in Candice Mallett shes a freelance journalist and she speaks to that point you were talking about rebecca about Racial Justice social justice as well and now is a good time for change this is what candace told us earlier. I have a concept latin area which at its current iris pandemic really highlights capitalism and failing all our mothers having our health care ties and employment and the fact that minimum wages and a stagnant people are to many an entirely industry kind of meat or worse. We need our government to act we need social benefits we need universal health care universal basic income to support us in times like these and we really need congress to continue the action 600. 00 and Unemployment Benefits you know everest im a lot less not right now but i want to see that in your economic policies you know because black people have been distortion impacted by this. Economically and so i really see that. The j. A. G. Thing that discrepancy will be addressed its so. In a headlines right now we are seeing protests around the country and around the world talking about the disparity of social injustice and the disparity about race and how races are of use and we have this opportunity. Yes but listen this opportunity will not be taken im afraid because if you dont just within europe if you just look within europe there d is a group known as the socalled fall and they are refusing to collectivize the debt of Southern Europe they are refusing to cancel the debt of the developing world i mean they have a racist attitude towards other people on the planet in other words that they are not frugal enough the very words frugal being used is troubling to me you know when you look at the way the debt crisis has basically continued from the 1970 s. On and theres been no adequate debt relief to anybody this is destroyed societies it is convulsed the Public Sector in many countries theres no appetite for any of these governments from any of these people you know to my mind they are not serious people when it comes to solving crises they want to kick the ball down the road they dont want to change that deep in the wood is that have colonial roots in this system they simply have no appetite for it i dont see bars johnson you know yet he is defending Winston Churchill for gods sake you know if theyre going to defend scoundrels like Winston Churchill and all the belgium its highly unlikely that theyll take it forward looking view on something as pressing as the colonial debt crisis. B. J. You know what you just wonderfully connected to a show that we have asked down which is about monuments and who should come down and we talked about these icons these monuments and so the previous string show connects to the current stream show we thank you for creating that linkage thank you for being on the show as well we appreciate your thoughts and the debate grace thank you rebecca thank you and also you to thank you so much for being part of this conversation always a good time to tell you that we never have enough time on the stream so on a sunday through wednesdays we have an Instagram Live conversation sometimes its with the guests sometimes it with somebody whos very important that topic and always it is weve lived 1630 g. M. T. Sunday and when i say on instagram now im signing up thanks for watching say next. Afghanistan is on the cusp of a new chapter in its history. After the us on the telephone signed an agreement to pave the way for the withdrawal of the national troops. The high cost was paid to get to this point. Over the past few years the us has increasingly conducted its part of the war from the sky was more bombs dropped last year than any other year in the past decade. But with that came a rise in civilian casualties. This is all thanks attempts to happen at mistakes do happen and that this is about owning all mistakes this is about things are in this about accountability in the in the last day on account of war for families we interviewed not receiving adult humans from the u. S. Left without closure. They told us that they saw a liquid happen to their loved ones was a crime. And they wanted justice and answers something war too often denied. Capturing a moment in time. Snapshots of how the lives. 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