Election trail has been forced to take a back seat will the president ial candidates ever hit the road and so their brand of politics to americans before the vote follow the u. S. Election on a just. A global reckoning on racism at least killings in the United States triggered protests and debates on racial legacies in britain and elsewhere so can europe and the u. S. Learn from each other this isnt about. Hello and welcome to the program on iran come on the killing of george floyd an American Police custody has triggered protests around the world some in solidarity with the black lives matter and the mint in the United States other demonstrations are coals to confront the legacy of racism in their own countries rallies in britain have hard like to discrimination against minorities as well as britains colonial past a statue of 17th century slave trade edward culson was dumped in Bristol Harbor last week in a london city leaders removed a statue of another slave trade a role that milligan and fearing move on to listen boarded up Winston Churchill statute before protests on saturday. For rights activists have held accounts or alley saying they wanted to protect the statues of what they call British Heritage more than 100. 00 arrests were made britains Prime Minister has condemned the protests as racist thuggery Boris Johnson is accused of stoking division and saying antiracism demonstrations had been a hard act by extremists intent on violence. French people also rallied against racism and Police Violence highlighting the death of a black man in custody 4 years ago and in belgium last week protesters set fire to a statue of king leopold the 2nd tens of millions of africans were enslaved and died when he ruled congo in the 19th century. Lets bring in our guests in Providence Rhode island in the United States tricia rose director of the center of study of race and ethnicity in america a Brown University in london Patrick Vernon cultural historian and campaigner for the Windrush Generation in the u. K. And in brussels suit Senior Research officer at the European Network against racism welcome to you all i want to begin with you in the u. S. Its been 400 years weve had slavery weve had segregation apartheid in effect weve had extradition killings weve had black and ethnic minorities in the u. S. Traditionally do worse than their white counterparts these have been problems that weve known about for a very long time but right now there does seem to be a moment where these things are being discussed in a much bigger way than perhaps ever before is that an accurate description. Im not sure id say ever before i think the theyre the pinnacles of the Civil Rights Movement and the black power protests were very significant and stretched out over a much longer period of time then were as yet reached in the present sounds but its a very important moment and it is a high point of lots of activism that brought us here and so theres a chance that it could be a big Tipping Point but let me just get into the structural nature of the racism within the us it seems to me that its slightly different from say europe and particularly u. K. Where many people say its immigration that is the root causes of. The cause of racism here it seems to be that you know you have a section of americans who have been deliberately targeted and discriminated against by successive governments theyve been get so wise to their neighborhoods havent been given enough money why is that. Why is that happened in the us why havent they simply been integrated once segregation was over. Well the main reason for the maintenance of the logic of the that drove segregation is that racism is not just a matter of personal believe its systemically aplan to so that hierarchies of value among groups of people can be maintained and so while the Civil Rights Movement and all of the other movements that led up to it were working very hard to create an even Playing Field theres been tremendous resistance all along the efforts to integrate Public Schools have legally succeeded but in reality have failed and that distinction applies everywhere in terms of job rate its of discrimination in housing rates of discrimination in terms of criminal justice in the ways in which its applied what whats very unique about whats happening in the last couple of decades is that were confronting the fact that we have a Mainstream American Society that has said that they themselves believe in racial equality but whenever they are confronted with the significant proof to the contrary they develop an alternative narrative that usually relies on the behavior of africanamericans in particular to explain these vast disparities they dont like school they drop out thats why they dont have the same education they dont save their money thats why theres this extraordinary wealth gap so theres a kind of narrative about the socalled failures of black people that drives the resistance to really confronting systemic racism so thats mainly why were in this situation and of course there is a significant segment although not a majority of americans who are Old Fashioned old school racists something that we dont talk clearly and explicitly enough about. Particularly in london let me bring you in traditionally in the u. K. When it came to Race RelationsRace Relations organizations would look to the u. S. For if not guidance at least inspiration we look at Martin Luther king we look at movements like that but there are now in the u. K. Leaders emerging people emerging who are talking about what it was like to be in those 1st generation coming over to britain in the in the fiftys when russian aeration particularly the woman im going to ask you about those generations have faced a different type of racism from the one in the us but its had the same effect hasnt. Let to let you know that we have a long history of points in race and discrimination you know go up to the farms or. Placements in prison a lot we all know a black. Or jewish. Flame counties. In the caribbean and the British Police and so we have a long history. And then the 1st person Congress Place in london 1901 point with an academics in in 2 years not when. It was trouble all new color pink. So weve had a long history of race discrimination in britain but when restoration came down to 48000000 people laid the foundations of not you know congo in 4 in the 1st. Place and around race. Ive been not 68 there was a color. Race very similar to what was up think. America young differences with the plate and. The bench in. One place in america but we had the. Rest now in 2020. Programs to break them. Down on race to excel. To the now in brussels a g i g r k. I just ask you what are we talking about when we are talking about race in 2020. Thats a very short and simple question where talking about everything that our colleagues have mentioned before i mean were talking about Police Brutality obviously this is what a lot of protests have been about but were also talking about structural forms of racism and systemic forms of racism which means that across europe were seeing people people of color and black europeans being more likely to be to be stopped and searched and were also seeing people of color and find it difficult to get employment and you know theres a lot of barriers there for people to get employment but also across all types of areas were seeing that people of color are either discriminated against or there are continuous kind of memorials to old colonial legacy is that do not include people of color in the National Identity in National History so theres a theres a wide range of forms of racism back people will experience living in in europe and i would like to say that its its its a mixed a common experience no matter where a live in europe so whether its in the u. K. Or france or belgium you are likely to be experiencing racism along the kinds i mentioned just now but is there a difference between racism in europe and racism in america you mentioned Structural Racism that the structures of how people are oppressed because of the color of their skin cities have been get a wise things like that is there a difference between europe and the u. S. In this case towards attitude is this is the is europe much more of a colonial attitude towards immigrants in his own country. I mean its difficult to make comparisons between the u. S. And europe 1st of all europe is made up of many Different National countries or with their own history and identity back to the experience of racism and discrimination is common. In both europe and the us and i and i would like to say that its not so easy to distinguish between slavery in the us and. The colonial history in in europe because its very much linked so were talking about systems of oppression and White Supremacy which is global and racism is global and we can see that also with the with the response with black lives matters so of course of course its something that came up in in the u. S. But its reach is beyond the u. S. Borders you see black lives matters protests since 2015 in the k. Other parts of europe and its becoming something that people can identify where its not so easy to just say that you know the u. S. Had slavery and slavery on only us kind of grounds and perhaps it didnt take place in europe but lots of european historic leaders were involved in the slave trade there were involved when at least 19000 africans died in the in the middle passage. On their way to the u. S. So this is history is is very much connected and its not so easy to kind of make distinctions or make comparisons we have to look at it in a kind of global way trishas a very interesting point you cant really separate the history between europe and the u. S. They have been connected for a very long time but the rise of i want to talk about the rise of White Nationalism over the last few years its seemingly much more vocal than it ever has been it would be easy to blame the white house and the president Donald Trumps language for enabling these people but is that accurate. Yes but its not entirely the whole story he has been extremely effective in galvanising a dog whistle white supremacist ideology and by that i mean they dont explicitly at their marches usually say things like we you know we hate black people we want to kill them or we hate immigrant brown people and we want to kill them but they ultimately are absolutely dog whistle ing violent forms of white supremacist speech. But its important to remember that this is not the worst moment at all i mean its a kind of strange idea that we could think that that kind of extreme White Supremacy wasnt operative under slavery under jim crow under you know after reconstruction so on and so forth i mean it was the dominant culture of the United States from pretty much its beginning until 1965 or so right that that is the reality that it was not just a country controlled by whites but that it was controlled by whites with the express intent of suppressing all other people of color stealing all the land from native people dragging millions of African People to this continent with the purposes of of controlling their labor and their social standing for the purposes of expanding capitalism and that developed an ideology around the fact that black people are supposed to be understood in every possible way as subordinate and whenever that subordinate status is threatened or challenged by black people or by their allies then you see a more vivid crushing form of the return of certain kinds of White Supremacy so a few things in the last few years that made this happen has to do partly with the Tipping Point around the demographics which connect black americans to other immigrant blacks of from other countries as well as many other brown people especially mexican americans but not only. And this wave of larger numbers of immigration connects the kinds of resurgent racism that we see in the u. S. To what youre seeing in europe because theres a very similar formation there but its also about a black president we cant forget that you know barack obama was a symbolic kind of you know reorientation which suggested that whites were not the presumed leaders of of the government and of the policies that it produces and no matter what his success was in terms of creating Racial Justice that doesnt really matter for this point the point is that symbolically it suggested that black people could be on top and we have to understand that you know while Structural Racism is institutional and meters out a tremendous amount of harm at the level of economics and and other forms of value education and so on theres also just a psychic dimension to white power white you know supremacy which is that they must be the most privileged and that drives the ways in which they extract resources from people of color and from africanamericans in particular it drives the the logic that you could have a vastly different Quality School system for them for them but not for us and so when you the kind of emotional intensity that was behind the hatred for obama i mean the hatred for this man was absolutely one of the fuels that trump has been able to gather and capitalize on in terms of fueling this support for you know really just extremist white speech which and and action and policy which we see in the government not joe and the congress in the senate not just in trump and not just in some Fringe Groups project vernon in london youve been watching like us all the protests unfold in and in Parliament Square where White Supremacy groups far right groups have been effectively fighting with police all you werent the these groups are getting larger and they are becoming much more larger much more vocal because of the social media because of the internet in recent years. Far right place but from script always been here in britain. You had also mostly. Nuns. They call write a novel and say. To personally lanie. Of these the last month and arrives in the me and say and then 6 you know how its. Human vision and well with you on the story many white people. Tell you and then you have the rise of the power. Or the National Team say this is the trend in britain you will have these bombs with former comes out and then it disappear again one reason well its. A number 2 but metro. Stop crime and these are rights groups. Of course when we have a were going to lock down in 3 months most. Will be playing group of straight. People terrorists who are. The people hungry months and then. That angry frustrated and those. Payments what is the point i mean. This cop violence with the multiple strikes in them some. Of them are. A lot we can. Probably say and a lot of happened to us on peoples. Terrorism but when it was new. Russian law people. Recognize. Or. Do so. But the racism. That we need to dress up. Is a mock america at least in america you have a clue about race improved so we could tell. The tale here in brussels do we have a conversation about race in america rather than invest in your study both countries. Yeah i would say that in the u. K. We are far more advanced in the converse conversation around race and racism and Racial Discrimination and understanding that through figures and data thats collected very very well i would say in the u. K. Similarly to the u. S. In europe its a completely different story i think that its only in recent weeks that racism like Structural Racism as an idea has emerged on on the the front pages of newspapers and in the media and its a discussion that people are really not aware or you know able to understand how to have some of the questions that ive been asked to kind of interesting and it seems that theres a lot of explaining that needs to be done in europe just to get us to a point where people understand what racism is and the data is not adequately available to to to show how pervasive racism is in europe and this is a really huge problem because people are not aware and i think that this is one of the things that having unfortunately George Floyds manager you can see on video and somebody losing their life and theres not that kind of video captured of incidents like that in europe not as many and i think that thats whats happened in the us theres been several cases of peace which has he been captured on fact on film and quite rightly so i think a lot of black black people in america are saying weve had enough but similarly in europe there are lots of incidents of of Racial Discrimination and Police Brutality and you know racial profiling but because its not systematically collected this. They said im talking about we call it quality data just to know where each ethnic group or racial group is standing in society how easy is it for them to get a job how much are they adding this kind of information now so to bring these issues on to enter the kind of public you know square to just discuss why there are these racial. Its really like in behind let me bring in tricia rose head tricia this is a very wide ranging question hoping you that you will be able to answer weve talked a lot about Structural Racism the structures of racism in the u. S. Where there are black people were oppressed after segregation came to an end because they werent given the same treatment as their white counterparts and white neighborhoods has that Structural Racism now changed in the u. S. Into institutional racism is it embedded now. Well i use slightly different formula for the hierarchy of language so systemic racism or Structural Racism is the biggest order of of institutional racism institutional racism is more specific so for example if you want to systemic racism at the big picture level examines how various aspects of society that are significant work in concert with one another to create chronic adverse effects based on past and present both past accumulation of negative affects present policies they take place in cultural ways they take place in Institutional Policy ways and so on so that means youd be looking at how the police connects to questions of say segregation you cannot easily police black people so differently than you Police Whites and others if you dont have housing segregation right if we had fully integrated housing you couldnt have easily easy policies where you can have a whole neighborhoods that are on Police Occupational level lockdown because whites would be living there and we would be outraged and they would see the difference they would understand the problem differently same things true with education so if you look at systemically youre saying education Housing Police wealth and other aspects of society work in relation to one another to reinforce each of those areas institutional racism is specific to a given institution so that would be say policing or perhaps criminal justice more generally or education so to me those are institutions and those institutions work in relation to one another in a way that connects them systemically right so thats thats how i connect those 2 levels of of sort of. The ways in which institutions embed themselves in structures and in systems more broadly theres one of the really important distinction and that is that structural is. Implies a kind of fixed process and so ive used it and we all use it its important not to get nit picky but at the same time systemic it suggests that its sort of happening the way its supposed to happen therefore its a little bit more flexible it responds to the conditions in front of it to reproduce the outcomes its trying to reproduce but in any been both cases structural and systemic are the biggest picture and institutional are the various institutions that make up a systemic process thank you very much a fascinating discussion as ever to tricia rose Patrick Vernon and. 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