A lot to the countrys fortunes we bring you the stories in developments that are rapidly changing the world we live in it breaks it down was a slogan that whatever the problem is of course jokes and counting the cost on which is iraq. A vigil in defiance for the 1st time in calling the bombs its a mule event to remember the chinaman square massacre it comes as china proposed to impose National Security laws almost semi autonomous territory so will the citys Democracy Movement so by this is inside story. Hello welcome to the program and its. Hong kong has held a candlelight vigil to remember the Tiananmen Square massacre every year for the past free decades its one of only 2 territories in china the other is macau where people can openly commemorate the chinese armys crackdown on democracy protests in 1989 but this year for the 1st time the memorial has been banned in both places police in hong kong cited the corona Virus Outbreak and restrictions on Mass Gatherings but some still defied the ban and gathered in the citys Victoria Park vigil organizers say the ban is an excuse to limit dissent. This is totally political motive a that the way you look at hong kong everything business as normal when you go to the subway is far more far more congested than any political gathering in hong kong so its an excuse on the part of police to clamp down on hong kong gathering including they do involve penhallow vidual but also because they have announced a National Security law they are also prey of protests again as a National Security law so its very all of it is it the whole thing is a little motivator its all happening at a politically sensitive time on the same day Hong Kongs Legislative Council passed a law criminalizing disrespect of chinas National Anthem anyone found guilty could be fined and jailed for up to 3 years and last week the Central Government in beijing bypassed the council and approved plans for National Security laws specifically for the territory prodemocracy activists a worried about their future as sarah clarke explains from hong kong. Weve had thousands gather in Victoria Park this was an area that was sealed off by the police earlier today after a police ban the government enforced social distancing rules and ban for the 1st time in 31 years this cant be true of the people of hong kong to mark the massacre of Tiananmen Square 31 years ago but as you can see behind me the people have gathered anyway and with her chanting of slogans are Free Hong Kong liberate hong kong one country one nation weve also got a number of flags calling for independence in hong kong and of course the organizers here encourage people to come and show their opinions about the democracy places that quite a boxing organizations are here and gather every year last year we saw about 180000 people gather in Victoria Park this year which still seems thousands despite that police ban now the organizers however are concerned about the future of rallies like this and thats as a result of the National Security laws chinas going to introduce those laws and potentially target political dissidents or those people who speak out against the mainland and theyre worried about the future of big assemblies and gatherings like this and that includes the chairman square cant let ritual to be held for the last 30 years here in hong kong. Lets bring in our guests in hong kong we have emily lau a member of the Democratic Party in beijing and democracy a Research Fellow at the center for china and globalization and in london roderick why associate fellow Asia Pacific Program a Chatham House welcome to you all and we allow 1st of all the chairman the vigil was always the event that most visibly demonstrated perhaps the hong kong is different from the mainland what effect disbanding it how. Well. The band was not a 100 percent successful as you might have seen there were probably thousands of people going into the park and i guess the police did not use violence to clear them but it is very sad because for 30 years all go was able to. This candlelight vigil and sometimes attended by over 100000 people always very peaceful and orderly and now this year. I think the National Security ignores going to be imposed on assume and under the banner of the pandemic as the authorities decided to not allow the video to go ahead it is sending a very very negative signal to the hong kong people to Mainland China and the rest of the well that had our 3 governments diminishing very fast ok and the as i may allow says its signed isnt it the channel in vigil show to the world that one country 2 systems worked that beijing was willing to tolerate that sort of protest and now its not. Im not sure i would use that to describe this we need to recognize that. That its been many many years since 1907 colors changed china has changed the world has changed and we are in a very challenging time in this. And so i think that from a Public Health perspective from a perspective of responsible governance this makes that being said i dont disagree with emily that there are structural secular changes going on in the hall as well both of these things can be true i would just point out too that in 1900 there was a lot of pessimism and skepticism after the hand over how things would turn out and i dont think it turned out anywhere near as bad as people feared and similarly today the chinese perspective on this is of course that this is a loophole that needs to be fixed it need be fixed for the good of the people all it needs to be fixed from the overall system trying with this one country 2 systems. Frame or as well so i wouldnt use i would say yes have changed and lets see where we are a year or 2 from now i would perhaps be a little bit more optimistic roderick banning the vigil is another nail in the coffin for hong kong it is a symbol one country 2 systems isnt working. I think these are also to big statements made from it i think i totally agree with them and it is sad that this was banned and it does send a bad message and on top of our load of other. Things that are getting much more difficult. For people to be able to express greedy views on matters relating to Home Products out there and to what has happened on the mainland and this is now being reinforced by this drive through so it would appear. And you look behind the National Security it will. Seem as if its going to be ready in a month and. Theres no time for consultation no time for examination letting them walk and i think its again. Very sad and disturbing what is happening emily back in 2003 when Tung Chee Hwa tried to push through National Security legislation it was stopped because of huge demonstrations in hong kong you at the time said that you didnt want her to being stopped by beijing but you didnt want beijing to interfere but now it is looking back should you of let the legislation pass at the time youve got a better better chance of in influencing it. Not really i mean at that time that bill was opposed by many people but i think there were suggestions particularly by the Legal Fraternity saying that the government should publish a white paper to consult the people more broadly and all maybe refer it to the nor Reform Commission so there was the sense that people understood that it is in the basic law all the hotel and say ah should and legislation on its own but you have to do it in a way that you have proper consultation then you make compromises then you come up with a consensus but they never went down get rung so its very very sad. And and then the more they talk about it it makes people more scared that if they make the law it will be there to punish them to tell us how calling the police state so the whole thing is has been buried very badly handled and if this is the refrain you often hear the hong kong people askin because things are being imposed on them these new rules the new lead legislation will be written by the Standing Committee in beijing theres no consultation with hong kong that is the problem isnt it im not sure i would describe it as a problem so i think these questions about process certainly i think reasonable people can disagree to something rush has adequate consultation didnt allow but lets not also lets not forget too that any process there always will be discontents complaining there was not enough consultation that cetera and the main courts of governments is to serve the people so while perhaps. There are legitimate criticisms of how i think what really matters is. Does that make. A safer place a place better for the create hope that people will go for it all over the last year certainly that the people of hong kong have suffered some individuals grevious being set on fire being that. Being destroyed and these thats really not. What. The prove that im a putting. English that if that solves the problem it merely that some people felt there was a lot of. Roderick did to hong kong and his political leaders miss a trick by not getting this National Security legislation through on its own terms and is now going to be faced with something much stricter. They would have found it very very difficult it is only says there are processes in hong kong that would have been gone through and they were the chinese decided the chinese Central Government decided that they would push through this. On their own by themselves without any serious consultation with. And just in terms of chinese owned time is only just that it process this is being pushed through mat requirements most legislation takes considerably longer to being examined by the National Peoples congress and if this comes in in a month or so then all of that that is a really hurried push through legislation and we go back to randys point about making hong kong safe. I dont think it necessarily does me ill say that it makes a lot of people in hong kong feel a great deal less and theyre going to gain on their going to business. It is remarkable and saddening again to see the hong kong and Shanghai Bank being forced to make a public state. Support for the National Security war this is not the point this is not the end of business to be getting into the politics like that and again it just shows the general and. The peoples republic of china to ensure compliance in our rule. Emily chang chinas premier he says the law will provide for the steady implementation of one country 2 systems its not in Mainland China as interest surely to see hong kong crumble is it with the access to Capital Markets with Business Confidence in the legal system all those arguments weve heard before as to why it needs to succeed well one would think so but if you lead now were waiting for the details of the law to come out and if. The law is very harsh its just like the National Security law in Mainland China then i can assure you not just ordinary people that the Business People who are so frightened of the extradition bill last year and a professional i think they would be buried the scare if we have full fledge mainly National Security. And you know what they do to people who are guilty of such a vengeance they would be disappeared for yes no access to family members no access to lawyers they would be tortured and when finally get to trial it would be held in camera nobody would be allowed in and then a couple of your 10 year west attach a month no just this is a complete lawlessness and if they imposed this on. You tell me that International Business community would want to come and do business here a hong kong people will be. Laid east and say everything carry on living happily. Under the. One of the crown jewels of hong kong as his legal system based on the common law Chinese Communist party has no experience of a legal system that is not interested in a legal system like that it will damage confidence in Hong Kong Well i think we have to see i mean certainly memories depiction of the chinese legal system i think is props a touch dramatic and exaggerated certainly the procedures are different but lets look at this also if the chinese legal system was indeed as for russia as bad for business as she claims. Why would. So many for and to still continue to do the rules and even to step up there and. I dont dispute that serious or a lot of. Fear in hong kong but i think some of the negative feelings have. Manipulated exacerbated by the western media there are guns in the arctic relationship i think to to doing this and again what i say is lets see where we are in a year ok folks a short pause for a moment the United Kingdom handed over control of hong kong to china in 1970 the territory was guaranteed a high degree of autonomy for 50 years now britain says it will offer millions of hong kong residents a path to u. K. Citizenship mr speaker if china fullers through with its proposed legislation we will put in place new arrangements to allow denies to come to the u. K. Without the current 6 month limit enabling them to live in apply to study work for extended periods of 12 months the park also providing a pathway to citizenship mr speaker let me just finish by saying that even at this stage i sincerely hope china reconsider its approach. But if not. The u. K. Will not just look the other way when it comes to the people of hong kong. Now chinas government has rejected the comments as gross interfere its human war we hold that the u. K. Has no sovereignty governance also provision over hong kong after its return and therefore the british side has no right to cite the british joint declaration to make irresponsible remarks on Hong Kong Affairs came into feed in chinas internal affairs. So rodrick as china drafts this law is there any sort of leverage from the International Community that could work that could maybe 10 per it in any way. What we are seeing and i think it makes it most unlikely that there will be any change the chinese determination to put this thought through the news that has come out in the last day or so makes it quite clear that they wanted in place by july that. That doesnt really give time for any International Pressure of any guy. And there is some there has been widespread. Expressions of concern. Your. Other places on state and theyre asking all these its. And the u. S. Of course has. Sort of said that they dont believe that hong kong is fully autonomous anymore and that maybe consequences of that decision but only this pressure at the moment is does not seem to be saying that the chinese in any way amalie is there any way of mitigating how china might draft this law does the offer of. A path to citizenship from the u. K. Sanctions from the u. S. Help from australia does that make any difference to how beijing thinks do you think does it help your cause. Well i dont know how the communist party thinks but i certainly hope the International Community will continue to speak out because the him china human rights lawyers have told me they said dont dont believe it if people tell you china does not care about International Public opinion because beijing just care because they care about face so anyway i hope they will all speak out but if the gentling is so hell bent on doing this thing. To do to you know to frighten a little hong kong people and are this then i hope that britain will offer a lifeboat to the hong kong people and other countries i hope they will have some immigration policy which will help hong kong people because i remember in the last century when the vietnamese boat people they came they plotted out and they came to how come we were the 1st port of call and they came and we offer asylum to them and the u. K. Government actually went to the United Nations to call for an International Conference on resettle like the vietnamese refugees. I hope that will not happen to her. On the is there a risk or does the mainland government a brain drain from hong kong is it threatened to the worried about the British Government giving asylum if you like to be no passport holders to australia and the us doing similar sort of thing. Well i think thats a very interesting question certainly i think as it is currently configured in terms of its. Human capital certainly is of value to china however if there are any changes i think that there would certainly surely no shortage of talented people in the mainland people overseas whether these are Ethnic Chinese whether theyre non chinese also be interested in the opportunities for us. As a standalone as a 2 year course has as it becomes Interest Rate it into the greater bay area i think the opportunities for only become greater and to the degree that. People are uncomfortable with the new environments im sure many other talented people ready to take their place and run what message is this sending to taiwan because one country 2 systems was held up as an example of how taiwan could reintegrate with the mainland is beijing given up on the idea of peaceful unification. Those are 2 very 2 very Big Questions 1st of all i think the whole group they whole concept of one country 2 systems as long as being of no interest to taiwan or the people in taiwan or the government and you can very much so that. From that perspective. What happens in hong kong is especially if it seemed to be. Strengthening of the hammock that they are saying that governments are wrong that is going to make hierarchy even less willing to come to some kind of political arrangement with yasi because it demonstrates that they cant be trusted there is a joint declaration that spoke of. A high degree of autonomy of the hong kong and there was an article pretty israeli which spoke of its. Humbling to do sing this no decision on its own and this is just not happening china is imposing this new National Security war on our 7 days fast peacefully in its occasions and thats a very different set of questions that. We just do not have at the moment that china is still i am not opposed to the mantra of peaceful reunification as they. Are but there has been no Real Movement in. Developing a political relationship with iran in the last few years and its not likely to happen ok emily youve been an advocate for hong kong and democratic principles in hong kong for a long before the handover dont you find this exhausting i mean where do you go from here this the big Chinese Communist party is much bigger than you and those people who you work with. Well i dont look like an exhausted person there i am there somewhat is that it said to me recently well why give up a habit of a lifetime it is actually it is the struggle of a lifetime and it is something i believe then its an ideal its an imprint soprano and i just i just dont want to be walked all over by these big powerless where they with the u. K. Or the chinese coming upon communist party or anybody else you know theres a thing called human decency we have to stand up for what we believe then and so im not tired im not exhausted and neither are the homecoming people over any of us are going to come in you dont fight ok and andy very quickly should there be a vigil in hong kong next year to commemorate the chinaman massacre. I think that remains to be seen i mean i think therell be a number factors to consider including Public Health issues i think are other issues have to be considered as well. Lets wait and see ok well unfortunately we are out of time but to all our guests to emily lau to be mocked and to roderick why and thank you too for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website aljazeera dot com and for further discussion go to our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter we are a. J. 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