The European Union is under fire over coronavirus its accused of failing to properly deal with the pandemic even as 2 of its members are among the hardest hit worldwide so can the union stay united and relevant this is inside story. Hello and welcome again to the program im peter w. The spread of coronavirus a shut borders across europe and challenge the freedom of movement and the Free Movement of goods those are the very foundations of the European Union and some argue the bloc could be facing an existential crisis european governments have been criticized for initially retreating behind their walls in response to the outbreak and its leaders are divided over how to tackle the crisis economically theyve also recently squabbled over how to share the debt burden germany and the netherlands are among e. U. Nations objecting to a joint Debt Initiative that also disappointed spain and its a. They were joined by france in calling for a grander plan of action president emmanuel mccrum says his country is ready to help italy in an interview with several italian newspapers he added europe must feel proud and strong because it is but it must indeed go much further this is why i defend budgets solidarity he said in the management of this crisis and its consequences what worries me he went on is the illness of every man for himself if we dont show solidarity italy spain or others would be able to say to the European Partners where if youve been when we were at the front i dont want this selfish and dividing europe you know some of the steps taken by e. U. Countries to tackle this pandemic austria france and germany have sent protective masks to italy germany has accepted covert 19 patients from italy and france medical supplies have been stockpiled and the export of protective equipment from the block banned the e. U. Is spending more than 155000000. 00 on the search for a virus vaccine as well as treatment and testing the European Central bank is buying 840 1000000000. 00 of Government Debt to stimulate the economy and euro zone rules on Government Debt have been suspended to allow a Member States to spend what they need to survive the break. Ok lets bring in our panel joining us today from perugia in italy julia the journalist and field producer working with foreign media from santander in spain fabrice pati a chief Strategy Officer at the political Advisory Firm rasmussen global and from berlin we have thorsten ben a director of the think tank Global Public policy institute welcome to you all julia can i come to you 1st paint us a picture what its like where you are right now. Well. It is quite the saw terri confinement at the moment at least still on lockdown. Though the raise in contagion and have had diminished we actually still have a growing number of people suffering from corona virus and a growing number of deaths so as of yesterday we had 900 in one day a little less than the day before when we had a 1000 the whole of it only remains on lockdown our government is currently working on new plans for more money to put into the economy as we are. Trying to come out of it and understand that the crisis will be heavy. All of the major activities that are not directly linked to replenishing the Health Care System have been shut down and are currently stopped and sebree spin sent sunday is that narrowed way you are. And for turkey yes as you know spain is the descent on the highest country in europe to be hit by the current of virus i think the number of their 5th birthday is is increasing and every day and i think everybodys hoarding depth raft to see how things are going to develop next week it is vote that next week will be privy to peak and hopefully to be any of this that hes a show of the rhythm of what the mediation and death. However are on the good side the spanish public kind of system is pretty strong and obviously overwhelmed sorbets a lot of even cities and initiatives to send some. Scuba diving masks to hospitals which could be turned into a pair of shoes for a ventilator so i would say the spirits hes high its week 2 of lockdown 2 more weeks to go at least and again everybodys already depressed to see how things are going however on the political side the government is obviously trying to maintain these measures across the country but as you know spain is bay decentralize every region as they all in. Parliament and decisions and these are not accorded 6 going on and the real question is whether we can still hold with a unified response for the next 2 weeks and what will be the Spanish Government is going to be concerned before the crises the Spanish Government had barely a reality going to be policy to be stopped rules and employment so later long after the crisis and this is the next big worry thorsten in berlin lets stay with the politics of this just to be clear has the e. U. Failed certain countries or done the perfect job as far as other countries are concerned. I think the big countries especially germany have. Failed its only and other countries in need initially were changing that but only very slowly and now the big question is whether we can really turn a corner i mean why did we fail in the beginning in the beginning we as germany we just put down all our National Borders like everybody else and said export ban on all medical goods because we need them for ourselves lets not ship anything abroad including to italy and we allowed to china to come in although thats the country that caused this pandemic to come in as the savior weve also allowed the author terry and he just such as Prime Minister orban to take advantage of this and cement their author tarion rule now were stuck slowly starting to adjust at least in terms of the cross border delivery of assistance weve stepped up as as germany were taking in patients from italy and france were delivering vital medical good saw thats the 1st step but the big question is what what what will germany do in terms of joint Fiscal Relief for countries such as its only spain portugal greece that will be incredibly hard hit by this pandemic domestically weve taken Decisive Action germany has thrown all concerns about balanced budgets away and kind of unveiled what our finance minister calls the bazooka with spend billions of dollars in order to stabilize our economy but so far mrs merkel has not said a single word in her important public speeches on other European Countries and the need to really have fiscal solidarity in europe the old german red lines are still in place and that actually responding up the European Union countries such as the netherlands have a similar position as as germany and the. Portuguese Prime Minister acosta was very right when he said it was repugnant on the part of the dutch finance minister the transfer said all we need to inquire why are these other countries not able to mount a strong fiscal response of ok arent because just let me put that idea thorsten is all for Fiscal Relief to julia in peru julia you are there but the leading edge of this crisis france spain italy they have less monetary breathing room if you will they have less wriggle room anyway and on top of that social distancing means people do not go out they dont put money into the economy they dont spend so Fiscal Relief is fine in 3 or 6 months but as of now whats the need for you are well what we need right now is for italy to be able to. Increase the public debt theres no way going around that and the former president of the e. C. B. My view but i did the italian former president of the e. C. B. Has stated this clearly on the Financial Times just a couple days ago europe has to come together has to be. Run by solidarity and i loud these countries that they call the south of europe which is italy but also spain portugal greece as you said to increase their. Debt of course this cannot happen if there is if the e. C. B. And the Investment Funds of europe do not allow it and if the whole of europe does not agree with this now it seems like that will be allowed now there was a meeting about 3 days ago among the european leaders they have yet to explicitly decide what the measures will really be and theyve given themselves 2 weeks to decide even though italy and spain which are in the middle of the peak of their crisis well actually spain has yet to see it. Have asked that to come faster italy has also proposed what had been proposed earlier. In also the former economic crisis for a shared a european bond theyre calling it now corona bond to try and make the sound softer to the ears of countries like germany and austria and finland who of course would prefer to keep the state of the bonds as it is now so each state can sell their own bonds while italy and spain and now also micron from france has declared that there should be some sort of measures to allow the European Union. European even if it was just for this crisis and so italy i think italy spain and other countries of the south of europe are waiting to see whether the e. U. Comes around and does as they have promised to create a unified plan to bring these countries out of the crisis which as you said were in it right now it will probably get worse and also bear in mind that italy but also greece and spain and also portugal have already continued to we continue to struggle with the 22009. 00 crisis italy is made of Small Businesses mostly the economic web of italy is made of Small Businesses family run businesses a lot of them are in dire crisis weve had already pushed the e. U. To allow us to make measures for our higher unemployment funds and so while the prescribers crisis. In spain and sent under whats the spanish attitude morphing into being towards brussels because youve got the u. K. Cutting Interest Rates on top of which youve got the u. S. Saying quantity of easing is the way forward so that means print money or come up with these bonds that julia was talking about and youve got christine the government e. C. B. Saying oh the problem is down to nation states themselves. I think its too early for the general spanish population to stop looking a bit more at what the e. U. s dong or has not done properly i mean people are really again focusing on their own the house their own safety but surely likely to lead that question weve come back to us but you have to know that spain is way different now and its only recently the European Union days know all full name and t. E. U. Sentiments in spain because in spain the e. U. Ees regarded as part of the democrats hes ation of spain thats part of the story of spent getting out of francos the deck to ship so e. U. We still have a positively supported across the political spectrum with few exceptions but the reality and thats what their previous speaker say i think were facing here a double crisis one above the lack of competencies of the European Union the itself it doesnt have competence for x. On the border and it doesnt have competence for probably counts which still remains very meant to competence of the individual Member States and decision crises which is i think the reality were in part is that crises of europe and so that sort of diabetes among european Member States and like again the previous speaker was saying you had different groups 1000 economy including france asking for basically a brain you approach to how you can survey data and strengths and the euro zone something that already was pushed after 2008 never succeeded because of germany austria feeling the netherlands resistance and that feed here its really creating i would say from them and that tension of all whats the whats the sense of the european project because if we do not accept to create more solely the economy sorry diary across europe really going to be a big question. Yes in italy but also in france where you have strong euro skeptic girl movements like solving the look then what do you do use that to say look youre a peaceful nothing europe is not cant be us we are now an issue focused on i wouldnt strengths so i think theres going to be a there are equally in the coming weeks should the european Member States not get their act together and manage to have something that is written in c. And unified enough on the economy from ok toss them burn in berlin is there a recalculation here that has to happen in berlin in paris the axis of the European Union and therefore for the European Commission as well and is this the original calculation was post brics it oh every other european country has been cured of this idea that they might think about leaving the e. U. And now with those wealthy in the north poor in the south mediterranean countries italy france spain portugal as well theyre looking in on this and going actually may be a day of reckoning to pick up on that idea from for brace a day of reckoning might not be such a bad idea not now not in 6 months but maybe in a year or 18 months or 2 years. Yes theres a real real real danger that the european project will fall apart if we dont get this this right now this is an incredibly critical moment imagine we dont agree on a modicum of fiscal solidarity with the hardest hit countries in europe and then in a years time you have Prime Minister saw the need putting to the italian people the question why do we still it here to the european project why are we still members of the European Union i think youll have pretty good. Arguments than for its lee to know that that project if he wants to make the public case for that and we need to avoid supporting those anti europeans with our selfish act selfish actions and the responsibility is with berlin with the German Government and chiefly with chancellor merkel chancellor merkel. The german germany through this crisis fine she has an Approval Rating until now it crept up to 79 percent and so she has rebuilt her Political Capital and now is the time for her to use that Political Capital in order to move her own party and the german probably toward a more solid eric fischl. Position with the rest of europe to do way with these old red lines and once its a once in a lifetime thing is not corona bonds forever but here you really need a different approach of fiscal solidarity with italy and spain no its not their fault theyre in this situation this is an exhaustion is shock that is hitting us all and hitting the poor countries this proportionately and so its for us to come up with a joint response or the european project will fail the Commission President fund a lion also a german she said we either face this crisis with one big carts or with 727. 00 small stone cold hearts and right now it looks more like this 27 single small high. Arts. I think its for germany and other countries to make sure that we can kind of develop this one big heart julia when vanda lying goes on Italian Television and says in bad italian were all italians i guess i know what your reaction to that will be so we wont even get there but where you are in perugia right in the middle of italy take me through this because i get the sense that northern italy asset rich cash rich doing ok but as you go down south through the country it becomes poorer more working class poorer more working class cash heavy not savings heavy and thats why were seeing anger and frustration on the streets thats why were seeing the police being called to little supermarkets etc thats why were seeing people on the sidewalks having arguments with the police saying we have no money we have no food and the kids in the apartment theyre really hungry. Yeah that is unfortunately correct. Italy is very fragmented in the north which was also the the area of italy that was hit the hardest and which is why our crisis will probably be even more than we now realize is the most industrialized and its where all our productive sector really lies its like 40 percent of our production is in lumberton which is the region that was hit the most as you go south its more based on services and also based on state assistance because Unemployment Rate is very high because the youth usually moves away and goes and works north or in other parts of europe. So currently after these 3 weeks of lockdown in the south and especially in titties like bennett mall and maple the capital of sicily in the capital of companion were seen a lot of stress among the people so bear in mind most of them have under the table jobs or little day to day jobs that keep the family going now in a lockdown theyre not able to do that but theyre not also there theyre not as able as other parts of italy to claim for state more state help so were seeing families now that are struggling to pay for their food yesterday there was a scare in fundamental. Social media the police had noticed that there was a group of 6 or 7 people. And arrive at a supermarket thankfully that was stopped the may have been and was now put forth a program to distribute food for free to families that need it. But also there is there is. Organized crime as Everybody Knows in the south and your gay are taking in already there are signs of them taking advantage of the situation ok because organized crime or she is where weapon people have a problem so the state must respond right away ok fabrice briefly what is it for you the e. U. Or the commission doesnt do that it should be doing i mean why did they go into a huddle and spend the 1st months of this crisis bickering why didnt they look at the countries whove handled it properly south korea japan taiwan singapore you know the models to handle it properly were there in plain sight. Because as i mentioned earlier its a sort of crisis of competence the European Commission does not have competence over public accounts again this is the national Member States who will handle their own Public Health measures and policies and spending so or if you do in brussels the 2 seat and watch and put a good face on whatever decisions the Member States were taking and you often saw basically Member States chipping away sharing of european Common Police sees lack ashamed un lack even if hes got a pretty yacht and the European Commission had no other choice but just a good face on it and move along so i think the big question and hopefully when we get out of the know how this part of the crisis will be what a trend of new competence we need to use to brussels to have a more coordinated approach in the future and if in the public have i dont think its going to become new york and Commission Business but on Public Health they tell me in a how you people on who has done what to us travel where i think there will be a big discussion at the european level about what kind of Legal Framework to make sure that we can control Public Health data but also respect the privacy of every people tossed in briefly from who have been to washington the Coronavirus Crisis has blindsided every president every politician around the world and its not done yet people are saying this might cost donald trump his job in the white house he might not go back in again could this cost the European Unions president s and Prime Ministers their european dream. I think it could and as i said before its a make or break. Moment for the European Union and its for the countries that are doing relatively well fiscally and in the crisis like germany to actually make sure that d we invest in dealing with the aftermath which will be incredibly severe for all of us also in germany but for the for the hardest hit countries and along the way we shouldnt forget the rest of the world to many developing countries in africa or latin america this is only starting to affect them and we need to stand ready to help in solidarity and we shouldnt forget the migrants at our doorsteps d that are living in incredible incredibly difficult conditions and camps in greece in turkey and we shouldnt just turn inwards because this is about europe as an open society and if we want to preserve your of as an open society we need to make sure we invested it and go against those the author terence be they from beijing or be they in budapest and their take advantage of this last word to julia in Perugia Julia world war 2 united europe might coronavirus divides it irreparably unfortunately that i think is at high risk italy itself has a large number of euro skeptic people and already there are talks of whether this government currently which is which is currently law but whether it will survive after this crisis and if we have to go back to elections because as you know it only works on call nations now if you go back to elections if he you does not respond strongly doesnt show side very very its a likelihood that the u. S. Skeptic groups will wind like salvini and that could bring as mentioned before by the other hosts to italy leading a sort. Break of the e. U. And wanting to withdraw because there are discussions among the people and differently from other countries of the south we do think that italy there are a lot of people that think that italy might be well off better on its own if it has to constantly. Come from the e. U. With its restrictions on the way we manage our public that ok we must leave it there thank you to our guests Julia Fabrice party and thorsten ben and thank you to you too for your company you can see the program again anytime on the website aljazeera dot com and for more discussion check out our Facebook Page facebook dot com forward slash inside story or the conversation carries on on twitter thats at a. J. Inside story or tweet me ill tweet you back im at peta dubbing one for me peta dobby and the team here in doha thank you for watching the show we will do it all again at the same time tomorrow i will see you very soon. All i want to stay with most outstanding my wife arrest internment and mass indoctrination all we were children are now in a process of reeducation or chinese assimilation forced labor and the use of high tech surveillance were being complicit in the human rights abuses that are trying an australian investigation into chinas systematic repression of the weakest tell the world on aljazeera. We will be extending our guidelines to april 30th. To slow the spread of. President trump extends restrictions on people for another month to contain the spread of the corona virus in the u. S. And we shall carry this is al jazeera live from doha also come