Transcripts For ALJAZ Afua Hirsch And Eniola Aluko 20240713

A country that has been debilitated financially by american sanctions for years now and the 2nd consideration has been for the government a public that has lost patience with it a public that sees it as relatively speaking unpopular so really the president here d trying to strike a balance between addressing this Public Health crisis and maintaining the economic stability of the country Going Forward and maintaining the social political stability remember this is a country that has lost patience with its own government over a series of crises that the countrys experienced in the last few months and this is also a president who in one of his 1st appearances since the outbreak was announced in the country came on state television spoke to the iranian people and said that in his estimation the outbreak would be over in a matter of 3 days now that was weeks ago having said that the latest figures might suggest some reason for cautious optimism let me give you what the latest numbers are from the Health Ministry in the last 24 hours the new number of cases is 966 down from 24 hours previous and the new number of deaths is 123 down from 24 hours previous still very large numbers still striking figures in terms of the spread of this virus but this does indicate a relative downward trend. In china domestic numbers have been dropping but there is a jump in imported cases up to 269 that rises sparking fears of a 2nd wave of infections just as the country recovers from the initial outbreak if you can pan in with more from hong kong. For the longest time china had been battling the outbreak within its borders and now its having to fight cases that are coming into the country and many of these people that are coming into the country are students or other residents who had been abroad and are facing lost sounds in other parts of the world and are returning home china has warned about this and has taken very heavy steps to try and for screening in fact that stop allowing slice to come straight into beijing diverting many of them to smaller cities where the passengers will be screened and if they are seen as having passed the test they will then be sent to beijing and then put in Quarantine Centers china the government has been warning about this from the start saying that they can control what happens within their borders but what comes in from outside is the next challenge as they say the 2nd wave there have been no new domestic cases for 3 consecutive days now in china china is now considering lifting many of the heavy restriction to just place that lockdown has place to try and keep people social distancing and keep people from contracting the virus from others in the city of who bit one in the provinces who bay which was the epicenter of the virus if you recall thats where the virus was 1st detected at the end of the last year there have been no new infections again and this is for another 3rd consecutive day in the u. S. More states are establishing unprecedented lockdown rules telling tens of millions of americans to stay home in new york illinois connecticut theyve all followed the site of california and rolling out sweeping measures to combat the spread of coronavirus nationwide curfews come into force in jordan as people are being told to stay home unless it is absolutely necessary to leave all shops across the kingdom of in order to close and the information minister says those who violate the curfew will be jailed. And in australia one of the countrys most famous beaches has been closed after people ignored a ban on Mass Gatherings large crowds were seen at the citys bondi beach on friday despite a ban on gatherings of more than 500 people thats a look at the headlines coming up next on aljazeera studio b. Unscripted. All. When you play for england i was never really going to be as accepted as my account name was and why race is not an opinion when racism is an ideology that is fundamentally all those without Democratic Values you know if youre not upsetting people youre not seeing in you know. If you want to know. My name is any honor and you care. Im the sporting director of Aston Villa Women Football Club i used to be a striker at one time well the shots. And im also a media commentator. I have worked in human rights and development ive worked as a barrister a journalist an academic and a writer if always hard is the diagnoses raif of them impolite for britain because we covered it my name is a for her. I grew up in london but my mothers family is originally from ghana i was born in nigeria but came to the u. K. As a baby and grew up in birmingham ive read any memoir about her passion for football since she was a young girl. She was at the top of her career as a successful striker when she was dropped from the England National team after speaking out against racism. Into a male player we dont 102 comes from their country after 11 years of playing i dont think you know it takes a lot of courage and determination to do that i know that africa has struggled with has your life density because shes of mixed heritage i spent my whole life wondering if this was really my country shes even moved to africa twice. To connect with a culture has also written amazing book about it so im curious to compare our personal experiences and our sense of belonging to. Africa is a part of both and me but we also british and black women so we have more than a few things in common but were actually quite different. Any other there were so many things in your book which are very personally related oh im so happy i loved doing it i loved it i thought it was so on earth and so revealing because i followed your career in real time and i thought i knew the story of what happened but actually i discovered there was so much that i didnt know him but the 1st thing i wanted to ask you about was the way you talk about identity and you use the phrase hyphenated identities to talk about your british nigerian background how you reconcile that relationship now because its obviously 2 very different lives that youve lived one in nigeria and one in burning away you grew up obviously writing the book is quite a reflective process so i really started to think about what how did i feel about myself when i was younger i was a popular kid you know i played football the boys loved me as i was running rings around them but actually it was a girl i was trying to be a boy the whole time there is this photo of you in your book with me you know he was quite young like so happy to be i really think i want to boy you know i was like there was just the biggest tomboy but actually really break that down i asked the boys to call me eddie i didnt want them to call me any which was my nigerian name and i actually love my nigerian name i love my name and you know but all of that i shut out for a long time and didnt actually want to explore and then theres all that stuff about actually when you play for england youre supposed to be as english as they come you know youre wearing the badge literally bar my names on your own luko so i was never really going to be as accepted as my striker counterpart whose name was and why. And now im very much somebody that loves being a nigerian woman so the concept of hyphenated identity in my head was all about this constant balancing act that we have to do i love rich tea biscuits and lots of british stuff but i also love to draw for us. So we shouldnt read it we should embrace it or ive heard black british people doing such Creative Things with hyphens with but we often call ourselves black british british nigerian british command ive even heard someone refer to themselves as a 1st saxon which i thought when i say i like their creative but theres always this question should we need to hyphenate you know weve spent all our lives in britain you were playing for england and i think if you ask a lot of english people what is the ultimate representation or symbol of english and many of them would point to the Football Team i mean certainly for me growing up that was an image of englishness and for me at the time in the england team was very white and england fans were very white and it was one of those things that made me feel excluded from the idea that i could be english and i think its no coincidence we often call ourselves british or black british if they were very rare to hear a person color say in describing themselves as english did you feel that this team as often represented quite a white idea of englishness was no longer going to be so much and because you were it and other but i am remember when youre playing football you know thats the beauty of football its kind of if youre talented youre in. And you dont think about you dont have to think about identity until you get a bit older and you realize if youre playing badly thats when media starts saying on nigerian born and they start becoming the other so when you do well your britain where when you die youre the nigerian you love and youre not doing so well youre kind of and thats the kind of dark side of sport and its not just exclusive to me its meant to in a measure ozo fastens famously stuck speaking about it you know. And he said when im winning work up some german when we lose and we do very badly im turkish reading your book i felt as if you really went on a journey where you started questioning things along the way but you were always very reserved in judgment and gave give people the benefit of the doubt the other way you describe things i think that speaks to my desperation in a way to just be accepted as being as footballers you just want to play football and that becomes a culture of just play football you know and so i used to dumb down my intelligence a lot and the questions that pop up obliged to ask are put the ball in the back of the net you know and it dates back to you know what i was saying earlier about just wanting to be one of the boys are you speak about it in your book you know at one point you wanted people to call you caroline but i let it like my middle name is caroline and i remember very clearly when i was 6 then i changed. In my 6 year old mind i said to my friends this is a chance for a new start i am no longer going to start again im going to keep it simple im carol i am you know i was literally trying to rebrand myself but why was that. I think that partly its an inherent issue if you dont look like either of your parents so my mother came to the u. K. From ghana when she was 12 and shes a black woman from majority Black Country and i dont think she had a particularly racialized identity as you all know if youre african from an african country race is not your primary identify its your region or your religion or your Ethnic Group Language but everyones blacks not a thing and my father is why but i think as a small child you notice that you dont look like either of your parents and thats not necessarily a bad thing but it is just a thing and then in my case it was compounded by the fact that there werent any other people around me who looked like me and i remember told a story that parents when my sister was born shes 5 years younger than me the 1st thing i said when i saw who is that she looked like me. And that was the 1st time my parents realized that i wasnt expecting to ever see someone who was i thought that no one else did look like me because that was the environment i grew up in my father also has this immigration story his father was a jewish child refugee from germany but within a generation he dissimulated into britishness you know he married an english lady my grandmother i dont think anyone ever asked my father or their siblings his siblings growing up about you know his immigration status or what the impact of their immigration had been in britain or where he was really from but my mother because of my mothers heritage that people ask those very questions about me its that visible blackness that make you really british you must have another story right and my logic was well if its because of my mother that people treat me differently then if i go to my mothers country then ill ill solve all my problems are just going to garner and be going to n. And i live happily ever after and so it is a little bit of a shock to the system well the 1st thing that happened when i went and i thought i was going suddenly thin is that gun in school me which means white person in a nigerian is where you will i think all that is that interior. And i was horrified i was saying they dont understand in britain they said im black. Now im her and i like me why thats not theres nothing you can do about that now ive spent lots more time in don i understand you know to a good man i represent. A european are bringing its not even so much about my mixed race heritage its more about my social conditioning and i have to acknowledge that and also theres a level of color privilege that comes out of a history of colonialism that there is privilege that people of european heritage get in african countries so not to acknowledge that would be to benefit from that privilege or understanding what it means and the damage it still does but the other thing is that because in school i used to you know i went to predominantly white school and the girls that picked on me were actually black tobin and they used to say you know african blood to you in the state make up my big lips and pull my hair in and one of them is mixed race for pretty girl i used to think you know sometimes used to think life would be so much easier for i was mixed i dont want to be that and i dont want to be that just want to be in the middle you know and so there is that there is that sense of you know colorism and and you know we have it in other races too is a big emphasis on the color you know the actual color and the shades and where that ranks and i think there is still often a tendency to if theres an Advertising Campaign use a mixed race model someone of jewel heritage with lighter skin and curly hair and it is almost the acceptable face the blackness but the 1st one to garner just going back to that story the other thing that happened to me was that i said to my mother. Was black and i remember exactly what i meant because the immigration officials obviously were black theres a framed photo of the president on the wall he was black the police were black the Army Officers were black the pilots were black and my mother also said that was the 1st time shed realized that i did not live in a world. Where black people wore suits were in power were at the top on the bottom and i hadnt i didnt know i was missing that until i saw it you dont even realize how much you internalize the idea of what power looks like its still on usual to see somebody who is black in a position of real power i mean look weve never had a black Prime Minister weve never had a black judge in the Supreme Court theres only one black person in the footsie 100 as a c. E. O. There has been so little progress compared to what i think many people expected but. At you know this is theres all these buzzwords about Diversity Inclusion but do you feel like diversity and inclusion has just become that deliberate attempts to try and please in rather than actually it changing what we see in terms of power i do worry about that when you have one or 2 black people or people of color in the room but that hasnt been the cultural change that allows their voices to really be heard or theyre in such minority or not a position of enough power to really challenge the status quo then it doesnt change the output it doesnt change the culture doesnt change the Decision Making and then to add insult to injury that person for to be wheeled out if something goes wrong having one person in the room who maybe put appreciates that nuance is not enough you need to have what would you know then is is the way to change it i think we need to be more radical in our approach and often ive seen this generation who are absolutely no nonsense i have to say and a lot more unapologetic in their approach just. Taking a different route starting up their own organizations and their own movements and really creating that Critical Mass of this generation they hold internet press conferences not just you know theres a dozen of linage of social media and Global Networks to organize to mobilize and really create campaigns that make change and i for 1 am so impressed by that and energized by yeah i mean this time thank you renee lets find out what you guys yes any questions so my question relates to the. Men to the caribbean people that have been deported and denied citizenship despite having lived in britain all of their lives but also to the conservative cabinet and in particular to the ethnic minority members whove done absolutely nothing to help so i just want to know is there a case for arguing that racism. And systemic disadvantage cant be dismantled without 1st addressing issues of class i agree i think classes is a separate conversation from race ive been in situations where ive been the 1st to do 2 to do it and that is pressure in itself but then you get the expectation of or what about us its like well give me a chance to you know figure out how going to change this 1st so its not easy but the agenda should always be to think about how you can open the door for others that look like you i dont think the wind rushing could have happened to people who were not both black and working class you know there are middle class people who could have been affected but they had the ability to hire lawyers or get professional advice to prevent them from being deported and this was really systematically targeted people who were excluded from those systems of power because of race and class but i think that the last concern. The government was particularly hostile as weve seen read to me there is nothing more profound than rounding up and deporting british people if you have told me that would have happened 10 years ago i dont know that i would have believed it its dystopian but i also think that black people we need to vote we need to vote if we all voted it would be a lot harder for politicians to get away with this kind of behavior because we dont hold them to account where an expendable community to them we also have to take responsibility as well i have a wide range of friends and you know when you ask them a why did you vote a certain way or because storms he said of bias. Well thats not thats not enough for you to like educate yourself understand how this is the effect if i vote this way you know because theres also pressure to vote how your parents your grandparents voted no so i also think that theres a lot of conditioning in ethnic minority communities where its like we have to think this way we all have to this way no were much more powerful than that both of you guys within your own record are considered to be role models to a lot of different people so how are you using both of your platforms to legitimize. You know the things that are sort of underrepresented by society you know whether it be sport or whether it be race i take that responsibility so seriously i feel really strongly that its important to show a Younger Generation not just that you can get in the room but that you can get in the room and be authentic because i dont think theres any point in us getting in the room if were not going to be authentic when not going to be pushing for change and i often put myself in quite uncomfortable spaces where im saying things that the people around me dont want to hear and the reason im doing that is for my own the self or is for younger people looking at me because i know that we dont get change by doing the same things we have to be honest and we have to be honest even when everything is conspired to silence us but i also think we need to be strategic and we have to think what is power who actually is in power what are the avenues of control and authority influence and how can we start to shape our own destiny but it is a big responsibility and if you feel so visible as well because there are fewer of us in the higher you go there are fewer of us and people to look at you and i remember the people i looked up to when i was young the huge influence they had on me and there were so few people to look up to which meant they meant all the more to me you know one of the. Is is what you just said the comfortable spaces that you. Put yourself in throughout my career ive had the opportunity to be the 1st a lot and i couldve been like no like i just had to stay in my lane you know footballs and kick goals like i like i do stay in my comfort zone but nothing really changes need to inspire people if you do that you might do but not really. So ive been really inspired by the opportunity to be the 1st. Because i think its only then that you can really open the door. And i take it very seriously you know when i am the 1st i have to be the most person here and as a woman the reality is you probably have to work doubly as hard as if you make a mistake the margin for error is very very particular in football where its can youre competing with men where its like why did i get that you know that that opportunity any say that you know i go into unconscious was spaces but one of the things i took most from your book it really touched me was the story where any playing football and shes the only girl and shes willing as you wasting to do just scoring a goal off the goal of the goal and the dads the supporters of the boys on your own team for whom you are winning started being hostile and saying why she here get her off because they felt so threatened that you were beating their sons how hard must it be to continue to excel in the face of that kind of hostility instead of rewarding you for your talent actually punishing you about it very hard it was really hard because. As a kid i each want to be kept up for doing well like you know for scoring goals and. But then i started to realize that human beings are very jealous or they want you to shine but not too much dont shine as much as my son. And to be honest i went back home and i was. I dont play football anymore its too stressful so for like a year i was like i want to play tennis and i play tennis and i started when the b. s like the williams sisters them because you know because they were like black women and it was like ok its easier to be them rather than be different all the time so it was hard because i didnt understand it i didnt get it what did i do wrong. Im a good footballer and i. But you know thats i think now i look back on that. Success comes with opposition you know if youre not upsetting people youre not saying anything you know. Oh no. The other day when i went on a show as a football show called the debate and i made a mistake and there was so many people on social media law oh my god she doesnt know what shes talking about she just said mine united rather man city and no matter how well you do there will always be people that are like she doesnt have to be there she made a mistake just waiting to pounce. But they wont be talking about you if you werent there the way i plan a try and look at it. Stronger. Now a lot of International Charities have come under a lot of criticism for harvey we present africans in their fund raising complains what is your view about what they can do to me to gape this and what is the role of black people globally to own their own narrative thats a really great question. Because actually one of the things ive tried to do through social media my own social media when i travel to africa is to show sides of africa that are just not represented in mainstream the beautiful sides. I was we said in ghana or in a cry and i was a slag this is such an amazing place and i was shown the Art Galleries the music scene in the colonies scene. But of course there are you know there are sort of extreme poverty as well you know its about i think showing a whole list moralistic side of both of africa and again africa can be broken down into so many different compartments as well i work with a charitable Charity Water and they actually deliberately dont show you know the images of poor african kids with flies around their faces this is they show Economic Empowerment in african villages they show strong women pairing in the water but i think one of global scale actually africa to the world is becoming a bit more of a positive conversation i think theres poverty everywhere and i dont think we should ever try and sanitize it you know there is poverty anyway its not our job to try and remount to size it or hide it we should be very honest about the problems of poverty we face my issue with the narrative around British Charity at a few different elements on the one hand i think theres a context that is almost never present so for example britain draws out in untaxed profits more multiple times as much every year as it gets through International Aid and charity and so we talk about the content. Continent as a place of need and suffering and we dont talk about the extent to which it still makes british people rich every day and i feel that if you really care about suffering on the african continent then why are we not redistributing the wealth from these huge profits that keep the top one percent rich and that is something that i feel responsible charity should be addressing poverty while also putting it in its proper context i mean that context has a history the history of empire where we betrayed africans as savage you know as as dehumanised and so when i see charities depicting african children without the same dignity as they depict british children i immediately see the weight of that history of children everywhere deserve their dignity to be protected so im not saying people shouldnt support African Charities i think we should support African Charities we should do it on the standing that the agents of change in africa always been africans africans have been building africa they continue to build africa in the face of adversity in the face of continued economic exploitation by countries like britain so its just about putting some honesty back into that narrative thank you for those questions. If you raise facts facts about the empire people come hysterical they say you hate britain if you dont like it here leave one of my frustrations right now with football is that i feel that were talking too much about race and nothings actually happening. Both recognize the both sides have legitimate grievances do you believe there are no modi is a fascist or poor kids dont have all gone they taking debate with a front on aljazeera. And chemical agents are real weaponized throughout history alhaji warfare persevered its head with me and started fighting developed by nation states there could be enough to be fed every child. Now within reach of those seeking. Funding the most toxic substance in the little. Man me invisible thread on al jazeera. Im Kemal Santamaria with another look at the headlines on aljazeera they coronavirus pandemic has now hit another grim milestone the global death toll has passed 11000 and number of dead in iraq specifically is apostrophe 100 after 123 new deaths were reported and yet president house on rouhani says hes considering lifting restrictions on movement by the beginning of april. Really the president here trying to strike a balance between addressing this Public Health crisis and maintaining the economic stability of the country Going Forward and maintaining the social political stability remember this is a country that has lost patience with its own government over a series of crises that the countrys experienced in the last few months and this is also a president who in one of his 1st appearances since the outbreak was announced in the country came on state television spoke to the iranian people and said that in his estimation the outbreak would be over in a matter of 3 days now that was weeks ago in china domestic numbers have been dropping but theres been a jump in imported cases 269. 00 of them now the rise is sparking fears of a 2nd wave of infections just as china recovers from the initial outbreak in the u. S. Small states are establishing unprecedented lockdown rules telling tens of millions of americans to stay at home new york illinois connecticut theyve all followed the state of california in rolling out sweeping measures to combat the spread of covert 19 theres a nationwide curfew in force in jordan now with people being told to stay home unless it is absolutely necessary to leave all shops across the kingdom have been ordered to close and the information minister says those who violate the curfew will be put in jail and now pakistan has suspended all International Flights for a 2 week period and in efforts to contain contain the pandemic only cargo and diplomatic flights are exempt pakistans already shut all of its land borders it has reported 3 deaths and nearly 500 cases. And this is one of australias most famous speeches its now been closed after people ignored a ban on Mass Gatherings large crowds as you say seen it sydneys bondi beach on friday the images sparked widespread anger across australia with already say the closure will extend to other beaches of social distancing advice is ignored further we are back with the news hour in about 25 minutes time in studio b. Unscripted continues. So after i married got a little in common in terms of our legal background. I really wanted to ask you about going into the barrister world when i look at it and who i was when i was younger i was always that person that was good at speaking was kind of disturbed by injustice to kill a mockingbird was a book that i read in gage to it and the whole idea of like speaking up for the voiceless and so i think i always had a lawyer in me this funeral for how long you pursued both you continue to play sport at the highest level when you hold a fight and practiced as a lawyer as well yeah well i thought once i graduated i was like or im on the path now my eyes will finish. And as you do all the playing things. I think like you i was influenced by books that show i also loves to kill and i i have a strong sense of injustice and i was not afraid of an argument. From quite a young age i have to admit my curiosity for people i mean everything ive done has been driven by the fact that im interested in people and curious about them and i do to try to help people wherever i can and did you feel once you got into that world embarrass the world you know you talk about in your book did you feel like oh my gosh this is so non by verse like wheres the other women wheres the a bit i mean its i mean and then theres but you know that stage in my life i was getting frustrated because id grown up in wimbledon thinking as soon as i leave school im going to choose a very different environment right and then i went through oxford and i thought as i did also im going to be in a very different environment and then i went to the bar is like this isnt happening for me. The bar is a very unreconstructed English Institution right i mean we were white horse hair wigs in court right now im not really quick badge or anything yeah you know i actually like get that was like as for wigs you know why because. When i wasnt wearing it my clients mistook me for a codefendant i mean people thought and so did all the lawyers or they thought i was worse because at least from a defendant im doing something worse they thought i was the girlfriend of the defendant like at least 5 going to be a criminal act of one. That was frustrated when i put on the wig everybody knew who i was if youre young and black and female that can be helpful you need props one of my frustrations right now with football is that i feel like were talking too much about race and nothing is actually happening and i know youve said that you dont feel like we talk enough about race so i feel like we have a different viewpoint on that because 10 years ago race in football was a sort of elephant in the room no one to talk about it no one said the r. Word now i almost feel like im called up every week to talk tonight to rent a quote a quote from a new lead and im actually like why arent you calling you a for like why arent you calling for an Association Decision makers about like why this is not being punished more so i just feel like we have this conversation thats a click bait that makes people click on and click on twitter and kind of brings this level of divisiveness versus actual action i think my analysis is that were talking about race but were not having a high quality conversation and i think the conversation that were having is incredibly basic i mean im in a slightly different position because im not talking about race in the sporting world. I think the world im in still denies that racism exists so i mean weve seen recently this whole spectacle of her and megan leaving britain and absolutely real experience of high profile broadcasters. Claiming that racism doesnt exist while actively being racist its a very bizarre ive had phone calls from wreckage on the saying i dont understand this is like the conversation were having in the 1960 s. Im im missing something and i have to say no you dont missing anything this is the conversation in britain i think that people dont know what racism ists so race is people think that racism is having personal vitriol towards black people or people of color in that if you feel you can personally absolve yourself from having what they imagine a racist thoughts or doing racist things then theres nothing to see here and theres no understanding of what systemic racism is of Structural Racism of how race can operate and i think you do a really good job of explaining this new book how race can operate in subtle ways a lot of times and sometimes it can be patterns of behavior sometimes it could be treating people differently rather than saying anything thats openly coded as racist and i think that because we dont understand a history of empire as well or White Supremacy we dont understand the legacies of that you know these whole ideas about angry black women or about. Black people being associated with crime you know the way that we criminalize crime if there is a paedophile who is of Asian Heritage its an asian grooming gangs and will not vast majority of paedophilic crimes in britain are carried out by white people we dont call it white paedophiles or white crime it creates myself like a small thing but i think a lot of people now believe that only asian people can be paedophiles you know and given that this is already a minority about him so much bigger insists that is a highly toxic and dangerous tripe and i press promote it i mean this isnt the right wing fringe this is the Mainstream Press on the front page day off today so you know my grandfather was a jewish refugee from nazi germany and he is no longer alive but his brother is he was kinda transport and im so fascinated by that period in his. How people can go d from having so many jewish people who are considered german or who consider themselves german to going to the other extreme and i think people forget that didnt happen overnight how it started was with top white headlines and with truth and with narratives that conflated the identities and the history of jewish people with certain negative hate filled stereotypes and thats why i think im so sensitive to those narratives that people might say you know its an overreaction to conflate this to nazi germany the reason to compare is to understand how it starts and to prevent ever becoming that extreme we havent approached that extreme nowhere near it yet but we have seen an increase in hate crime we have seen unprecedented levels of anxiety and fear among many of our ethnic minority communities people saying they dont feel safe in space as they used to feel say do you want to do you have conversations with your fellow journalists about the responsibility that we have to make sure that were not perpetuating some of this stuff because i feel like whenever i speak to. Other journalists they try and pretend as if i dont write the headlines. Like when im writing a column every single word that matters so i dont i just i just feel like the media i used to think of journalists like you know like lawyers and i think the media these things have just become so desperate and so kind of base in the profession that were now perpetuating a lot of you know the problem there are also i think kind of structural factors so for example i think theres a lot of false equivalence and what i mean by that is this idea that if you have somebody like me who talks about antiracism about how to combat and fight racism theres this idea that you need to balance me out with a racist race thats not an opinion racism is an ideology thats fundamentally at odds with our Democratic Values but i fear its becoming normalised by. Ignorance at best and at worst a kind of malicious attempt to really debase the narrative to get more views more clicks and i really think its crucial to call this out and i dont think this can be left to journalists i think we all need to call this out i think this is a loser and i have got to go to question time anywhere. On your point about journalism and how the media is in a way complicit in continue racist narrative so i would like to get into the Meat Industry would advise could you both give to me to try to in some way combat those narrative swaps im in the room because it can be quite challenging or im a bit ignorant to the actual process of like what happens in a news room we have recent examples where like you know kobe bryant sadie passes away and his is mistaken for Le Bron James that to me thats bonkers and that happened thats happened of quite a few times i think having a more diverse newsroom will help that but then i dont know whether actually practically speaking you would have a say in changing. What you know is a racist headline i think there is no substitute for diversity so on that basis i think its so important that young journalists from all backgrounds go into journalism thats what they want to do but you need to be prepared for the fact that its not a Straight Path and what i did which worked really well for me was actually to do Something Else 1st to build up my knowledge my expertise my credibility so that when i went in a i had the confidence to speak and challenge and be i had to be listened to because i was someone who had the credentials that may be difficult to ignore in a way im kind of losing interest in asking me to organizations to take us seriously to pay us equally to listen because soon as we have to keep asking for thats like weve already lost why are we asking to be paid the same as our white similarly educated similarly qualified counterparts and i think that sometimes we have to vote with our feet and there are lots of very inspiring examples of people whove started their own media organizations and who understand how to reach audiences like them and are actually changing the way the whole media works by their example so i think we need all we need to be represented in big Mainstream Media organizations thats theres no substitute for that but its not the only way a lot of times frustration with the system pushes you to do. An amazing thing that you would never have done if you were in the sort of majority so sometimes its about saying well ok i can get in that way im going to get in this way and do it myself and my last piece of ice is find allies you know there are lies everywhere you just have to find them and dont assume that black people or your allies also dont assume all white people are not your allies their allies and youve got to find them work with them and create those networks and i found that incredibly powerful in my career ive had white men whove been huge allies ive had black women whove supported me ive had people from all different backgrounds who ive worked with so i think find your allies know who they are work with them for a change both of you have roots in former british colonies can you talk about your experience of learning about colonialism and compared with what you learned to school and the impact you think the lack of colonial education in this country has on people on how brits see race and their own identity as well my colonial education was nonexistent im actually still learning now. Its nonexistent half was book actually helped. I look back at my secondary School Education and i learnt more about Martin Luther king rosa parks america africanamerican Civil War History than i did about colonialism why because we dont want to touch on the things that we did in britain its easier to talk about that you know. That disappoints me. I guess its never too late to learn and i think now with bracks it and the kind of those feelings and sentiments theres a lot more focus on britain. Now but also like where is it all coming from where is this sort of National Sentiment coming from so i think now people are delving more into those questions. And i think theres a push back a little bit from africa you know if you speak to people in business in africa its like its almost like we dont want the kind of 100 outselling we want to do ourselves and i think that comes from a post colonialism mentality that shift in so yeah i didnt have. Yes i didnt have a. Little education in history which i loved with love history went from henry the 8th to the 2nd world war im not exaggerating and when you actually analyze what was left or how it just happens to be the entire period of empire building and unfortunately i have a daughter whos a turning 9 and very little has changed that actually being educated to believe something thats not true which is that prison existed in isolation and i think thats incredibly dangerous you know i think that ignorance about the British Empire which is by far the most important period in british history in the last 1000 years you cannot understand our position in the world the reason were a Multicultural Society our relationship with europe you cannot understand our industry you cant understand our regions none of it there is not a family in britain i believe that has not been touched by empire either because someone in that family worked for the empire empire was a huge source of employment and social mobility for working class white boys historically so many people who couldnt find opportunity in england scotland and wales went to the empire where they were able to move off in society its a complicated history and i think its also important to say that there was not really one empire there were multiple empires you know britain in west africa was very different from the raj in india to the caribbean to hong kong or Southeast Asia and i think we know almost nothing about this its completely invisible and not only has it been a raise from the School Curriculum but its there is no National Museum of empire in britain or what i was going to touch on that because i think it is a very deliberate a mission you know i love berlin for example and when i go to believe in im so impressed by just the level of just kind of. Openness and honesty that they that the germans confront with the history there is not a st louis you cant go to a museum and learn about the holocaust and you know i would add to that family was forced to reconcile its nestles by the allies having been defeated in the war i think a lot of this stems from britains victory in the 2nd world war but after the 2nd world war britain felt morally victorious rightly having to leave the nazis and remade itself forced to lose its empire remade itself as this benevolent nation on the right side of history and any aspect of our history that was not compatible with that was quietly square because history is written by the winners and now we are in a situation rice i believe that has created an incredibly dangerous for gelati when i say fragility i mean if you raise fact historically great facts about the empire in the Public Discourse people become hysterical they say you hate britain if you like dont like it leave what kind of way is that to respond to historically facts about our recent history and i really think that if we cant understand how weve become this nation the reason we look like this that we occupy the position that we do culturally so much of our culture comes from the imperial period and were totally clueless about it and i think that weve been failed actually by generations of leaders who have continued that in public and theres nothing to see here so i feel very strongly about this and i dont think this is our job as people who have stories that come from colonies in africa or asia i think this is all of our job as british people to start being curious and honest about this history i do think the whats whats great at the moment is im seeing lots more authors african authors you know i think now theres a demand rather than going on netflix in and just watching something that you know. Is sort of people want to learn like people want to watch documentaries that speak of this stuff so i think in terms of the entertainment world. I personally feel like theres a lot more out there that we can kind of tap into and and learn that i didnt have growing up or at least didnt see as visible as we do now. 21000 was termed the year of return in ghana and for those of us who were part of the guardian diaspora it was such a warm welcome and an exciting prospect the question i wanted to ask you is how do we find balance and practical who practicality in the idea of going back home and building a genu. Ine and practical relationship with the motherland i was so excited to see the groundswell of love a Movement Towards gone out of there but i also think part of the person experience its important to have realistic expectations you know if gone and see me as different thats completely justified ive had a different life but i want to contribute to ghana i want to go on as economy thrive i want to see other african countries rise i want to see the continent become unified again to see trade within africa not always extracted to europe and america i want to see some of those colonial borders that divided us through language and National Boundaries become useful trading cultural exchanges as they were 2 before the imperial period so i think its about how can we contribute to that movement and i i am fascinated by the panafrican this period you know those intellectuals who actually created the independence of sort of sovereign african nations who managed to. Colonial era and their philosophy was one of building up the african continent that there could be no future where black people can live anywhere while the african continent is oppressed and still controlled by foreign financial interests so i think thats a project which anyone who cares about this can contribute and its just a question of finding your place in that project i actually went to a panel on that question when i was in the car and it was very much about ok this time weve had lots of parties you know i think 1000000 visas were given out like it was a success. But how do we continue this and so one of my friends is on the board of the tourism board and she was talking about beyond return you know the whole idea that actually the diaspora coming back to garner have to also have a practical mentality you know just Little Things like going into a restaurant and expecting service that you would get in Central London is not going to be the same you know and just understanding the culturally we have to adjust to as dire spore we have to be patient to its not always about them receiving asked because there is differences so i think people are just more conscious about it and everybodys having a better conversation around how do we as diaspora help but also how do we assimilate ourselves into a culture that is is becoming selfsufficient is becoming successful. So its really exciting to see i think its a really excellent and i had a amazing time garner too much too much of a good time actually. To what extent can we really produce new knowledge within the system thats already based new knowledge on africa new knowledge on what would be considered the east when so much of what already exist is framed through the white i when our basis is already flawed i think youre right about the bases being floored i sometimes think about for example oxford if you study latin greek its called classics and just the name it legitimizes one history of ages of laissez sion as superior to other ancient civilisations. We study. Study the Industrial Revolution as completely separate from any history around the Transatlantic Slave Trade these things are kind of conceptually separated and even the language we use in everyday life you know we talk about the emmy people stuff that mean anything its everyone whos not white flying together in a big lump so here you go it is a name for you all. I am really excited as a cultural creator about the opportunities now to speaking to an audience who get it so im not really speaking to the academy im not speaking to people who are interested in breaking down those conceptual bars im speaking to people who are hungry for knowledge and who are curious and now you have Global Streaming Services that will reach people in the african continent that might reach africanamericans that mean i dont have to go to the same gatekeepers who will say we did a series on africa last year so common a thing else said africa. Oh if you pitch a serious enough now we did news that we did after music last year so. This is i mean after half was point we are we living in such a Creative Time and a lot of us all of us are many journalists in a way but actually theres real amazing people that create so i think were living in the time when we can definitely create new information and new perceptions to the point. Because this is so many. Forms to do it and whoever wants to see or see it and whoever doesnt well youre losing out and i dont want to let the gatekeepers off the hook but we live in a global capitalist Society Money talks and what were seeing actually is that the platforms that do get it taking the money to follow consumers are more i mean the word is work but i feel like people are much more inquisitive about ok well if i buy nike or added where theyre actually coming from or if i watch this on this broadcast or but that broadcast is linked to that and so i do think people you know as you said are more conscious of the content that were consuming and what we are learning and the and because of the week that you know creators have to really be very responsible about like are we pumping out the same narrative is a different narrative and i think thats really exciting because were learning and were feeding ourselves with new information because thats the demand thats whats been demanded so what do you see for the future. Or for me ive just retired. From when the story of. Its almost like life starts again for me in a way you know ive just accepted a role sporting director of aston villa Football Club probably so i get to kind of make decisions now and i guess that i was kind of always that player that sort of prodded it Decision Makers that while were doing this thing why are we doing that and now i am it and its kind of scary but exciting at the same time if i saw him you know whats i working on for vick writing projects. Which im really excited by i think it just speak to everything weve been talking about how do you reach people i am im an optimistic person yes i think that most people are decent and want to know and learn and experience new things and so. A good journalist a good writer a good crates finds ways of reaching people and about the big challenge that im excited to take up were looking out for it and i want to. Thank you so thank you. Frankly the collapse of our institutions began on t. V. And i realized i was working for something that was evil and i had. Been a part of actually creating its like they invited people to their house and they gave everyone guns and said its the wild wild west. London people cost 10 times to special guest in conversation when you say a lie a 1000000 times that becomes a fact you then can create whatever narrative you want from uninterrupted and i realized i was working for something that was evil you know being a part of the creating. Christopher why the death of journalism is only the. Signal for the death of democracy unscripted its on aljazeera. Well again lets look at weather conditions across the americas for south america lot of heavy showers across parts of peru extending down through into the in parts of bolivia but it should be largely dry in the past lima now meanwhile across eastern parts of brazil some heavy showers of likely here so fun to later could well see some heavy downpours this frontal system is just generating showers across parts of brazil is moving further towards the northeast of the risk of shows will decrease for Rio De Janeiro with time for the science looking dry and fine for bunnies there is their highs of 28 degrees so through sunday not a great deal of change i think for bolivia and peru the main concentration of shower activity across the region lets move into central parts of america think generally for the wimbledon Leeward Islands a scattering of showers coming through for most of the authors the caribbean though gerri not looking too bad see plenty of sunshine the showers blowing through fairly quickly and the same body goes up through the isthmus there will be some showers at times for still a fair amount of sunshine yucatan peninsula looking fine we can can see in highs of 27. 00 into north america we have this area of low pressure moving in towards the coast of california meanwhile weve got snow clearing up northern parts of canada but some really cold air falling on behind. The grim consequences of mexicos bloody drug most watched the people around you mr governor youve got people who are with the narco through the eyes of the journalists determined to report the truth your government is full of narco she said thats how the article should start 6 years on we revisit the reporters still risking their lives. This being another outbreak of violence of more of course rewind the deadliest beat on aljazeera. This is al jazeera. Everyone im Kemal Santa Maria this is the news from aljazeera the crossroads of the world at a virtual standstill these are live pictures from new yorks times square as one of the biggest u. S. Cities goes into effect of lockdown. In a very quiet Central London this is. The u. K. Is having to deal with a complete transfer my