Should public transport be Free Luxembourg becomes the 1st country to abolish that for everyone that is the solution to traffic jams and pollution but will the cost of a ticket be paid in other ways this is inside story. But a welcome to the program that clogged in many cities public transport is often the easiest and cheapest way to get around its more environmentally friendly because if you have petrol and diesel cars are on the road its also free if you visit luxembourg its the 1st country in the world to make public transport 0 cost for everybody but not everyone is on board thats alexi abroad or. These ticket machines in luxembourg have become obsolete everyone now gets a free ride on buses trams and trains and the richest and one of the smallest countries in the European Union many cities have taken the same route but luxembourgs government says its the 1st time an entire country has abolished fares for everyone leaders hope their initiative eases congestion reduces pollution and supports people on low incomes a transport pass used to cost nearly 500. 00 a year. On stuff all over the world we must make the same observation mobility as it is organized today is a failure there are traffic jams everywhere urban spaces no longer work people and rule areas have been neglected so we really have to change the system to system like many of the citys traffic jams a common with a population of 620000 luxembourg has the highest number of cars per person in europe congestion is made worse by the 200000 commuters who drive from neighboring belgium france and germany to work in luxembourg some say theyll now change their habits is more environmentally friendly to take public transport in my case because the buses electric at least for a certain part of the city and so that is definitely instance and to not only drive the car every day. I think luxembourg is setting an example for europe and the rest of the world by making public transport free for everyone in terms of the money that i busy even just by taking public transport it makes a lot of sense to just stop taking a bus every single day tomorrows mobility is already here lets help luxembourg move on scrapping says as part of a 15 year government plan to upgrade buses and trains build bike lanes and encourage more copple like but critics say the government has failed to invest on transport and complain about poor roads and a rundown rail system. M. The government admits it a loser around 40000000. 00 a year and ticket sales but hopes that want to rial its vision for the future. Alexey obrien for inside story. All right lets look at where else bus and tram tickets a free italian and a stone in it became the 1st fat free European Capital that was back in 2013 but only if you live there good for tourists at dunkirk in northern france introduced free travel 2 years ago Bus Passenger totals have soared since then and last year indias capital new delhi announce free bus and metro phase for women at the Safety Initiative follows murders and rapes of tax on public transport and if you live in kansas city in the United StatesFree Bus Services are planned this year the 9000000. 00 annual cost is the same as collected in bus ticket revenue now. Our lets bring in our guests here in the studio with me is a relief transport correspondent for the Global Affairs and lifestyle magazine monocle in luxemburg constance cars standing by Senior Research scientist at the university of luxembourg shes also an urban geographer and in china india sagarika pond about is a founder trustee of the rug Area Foundation which promotes road safety sustainable transport and Community Development great to see you all thanks very much indeed for joining us constance and luxemburg constance carby great to start with you on the face of it this plan sounds great doesnt it but does it back close scrutiny what do you think yes i think it does and i think. You know when as look at the specific situation of lets a regular its a small country its very much dependent on trust water labor and the infrastructure it needs to catch up to its current current Economic System so its which is quite knocking at the moment and that needs to be worked on before the crisis but is it going to work because public transport is already incredibly cheap in luxembourg and luxembourg is pretty rich isnt it and youve got a lot of people who drive across the border from outside the country to work in the blocks makes it easy you know this is one of the issues im going to be driving is partly because the cross border Public Transit options are so weak and unreliable and uncomfortable and this is the least theres a lot of work that needs to be done there so the more of it the more growth pressure there is in the city the more. Infrastructure is going to be required and we also have to think about the housing prices as well through many for most labor its more financial makes more my natural sense to live in the Border Regions and look for Mobility Options from there whether theyre you know whether theyre one or 2 cars or whether theyre you know the infrastructure in public realty which is rather rather insufficient right do you think there will be an uptake in passenger numbers because petrol and diesel is also cheap in luxembourg is it and in fact you have tourists coming in petrol terraces that will have to fill up their cars that the tax thats right thats right that exists also well i cant of course one cant predict yet whats going to happen in luxembourg and there are studies being done on this but also we have to realise that there is you dont have to reinvent the wheel here in the transport geography sector thats lots of research on this and they show repeatedly that change in bear doesnt change much in habits actually that to get people out of their car is the public transport option it needs to be. Comfortable and has to be reliable and used to be safe and also we need to start thinking about ways to make choosing the car a little less palatable than it currently is right ok willie lets hear lets bring in the governor in the studio here at the research transport systems right around the world what do you think we hear there from constant change in fed does not necessarily encourage a change in practice whats your thought right i think thats thats true i mean i think you know if you make public transport free it can be a part of an overall solution but you need many more aspects and that solution in order to incentivize people to take public transport instead of getting in their car and that includes some of the things that constance mentioned are having to be reliable safe punctual you know also you need to have a broader system that that takes into account that you know people people feel more comfortable in their cars in many cases in many cases even with a good public transport system like in stockholm or amber. You have very good system but it takes maybe twice the amount of time to get somewhere as as it would in your car so you know you have to also penalize people who are in their cars you need to raise if you dont have a congestion charge a need to have one and you need to maybe in some cases even raise it theres theres lots of ways to do this i think in general in principle i like the idea of free public transport youve seen examples where its been successful but especially in larger cities you need to really rethink the whole fabric of urban mobility which many cities havent done thing is we call it free but theres no such thing as a free lunch is thats right yeah i mean in many cases you would have to say for example have a higher tax to pay for theres a municipal tax maybe to pay for your free public transport which you know in every city thats going to be a different situation you could maybe make the case for that but there are also potential cost savings if you if you reduce the need for controlling fares right now they have hundreds of Police Officers in new york city going after people who are evading fares and how much is the cost to have those police right for example you can speed up transit times because people dont have to pay when they get onto the bus there are other tangential benefits to consider and some of those include saving saving money actually right were going to move on to me in just a 2nd but just one final question to you wouldnt tax on fuel for cars be a better idea because then it negates that the loss of an income stream from making public transport free and youre gaining revenue from doing that to make it more expensive for people to use it cause yeah i think it could be you know depending on the situation again or you could do it in combination you know make it more expensive to use the car and lower fares for certain people or or reduce fares as hero across the board and use the revenues from the from the cars to offset right ok lets bring in sorry. Theres other aspects to this of course not just because of congestion or because of our mental concerns delhi brought in this 0 fees system for women to improve their safety explain that for us if you would and does it work. The q. Mark position to see is what evidence do you good to offer all to me seems yet improving there really is this 101. 2 as im close only one if questions do they. Come back to india that the city across florida is still going for luck to be happy is it written or its already the fuck up because it was 8 so if you see that right is happy it was only just for 15 percent less focus. Women will focus on but. I pity. The worlds 4th largest cause going for any of them from here being. Back. To let it all 70. 70 but if you see my in baby is less than the national the census it did us was just when it didnt get put in focus and bus and also for men traveling for things was what it is Lady Betty Ford and. I see is that making it i think are breaking free of a simple system for woman so we have seen this thing has been launched in september and in 1 month and we have seen back. The comment participation although a month travelling in the public will test in just a few. But then you have a sort of domain our judges will just want to jump in because i read that the former managing director of delhi metro wrote to the Prime Minister before this happened also him not to approve the idea because he felt that it would set an alarming precedent for other metro projects around the country so theres not universal support is that. Well you will not ever go man one pink thank you and you got a gun he is. Driving a roll of you thought it is not polite it. Is not but well like you know this is one thing it all means you know it all if you are a liar being a 4 bit well. You know it. And you will say if more validity then you are a ding woman what for and that is i think you are duty why so that is one thing i thought like you when you walk. Yet that what you think are good of you more. Not just woman but for everyone ok constance this question of cost and luxemburg ticket revenue amounts to 41000000 euros from public transport not deficit apparently we will not be met by the treasury but as we were discussing with gabriel if someone somewhere is dumping up the cost how is that being dealt with and in luxemburg well it will be put on the taxpayer of course. And one can of course talk about heroin tax as a means of redistributing wealth this is of course a very important mechanism in the case unless im really in a number 2 that again its a cross border situation and a lot of labor is living in the Border Regions and theyre paying taxes well and is the question of how much will they be paying taxes in addition to paying the for them ability to get to the border before they get to the 3 trance where option inside of the country so theres a its not this is not a magic bullet lets say right now we talked about how this is going to be rolled out in can in tallinn the stone the. Passenger totals have soared in dunkirk and i think its been successful in telling to this new tell us about that a a but can vastly what the impact on the numbers of cars on the roads be right i think you see that in general if you if you make public transport free then ridership goes up thats. Seems to be a pretty constant especially in the smaller cities that have tried it it tends to work well in terms of raising the number of people using it but it doesnt necessarily take cars off the road in tallinn as i understand it has by some degree not a huge amount Something Like 10 percent but look if the goal is to take cars out of the city center or whatever the urban core might be then you need other policies like i mentioned its not going to be enough to just make free public transport right its all the horses for courses in that because one city is very different from the next what you can do in tallinn or in dunkirk or indeed in luxembourg you can certainly do in new york or london right these larger cities obviously its a much bigger challenge because of the fact that with smaller public transport systems made for smaller cities you know the cost of collecting fares and forcing fares can be much higher relative to what you lose so in other words. The math might make more sense for them in terms of revenue loss versus cost efficiencies gained whereas in new york thats a much more complicated situation billions of dollars a year in ticket revenue goes towards the m. T. A. So yeah its its very complex especially in large cities very difficult clearly because otherwise we would see more of them doing it in the right converse lee we have kansas where theyre offering a Free Bus Service to as a 2022 to build up a kind of culture of bus riding because of course in the fiftys the transport infrastructure Public Transportation structure was ripped out to make way for the call yes and thats true i mean especially in places like in the us where you have people have been pushed toward the car for years and now were trying to get them back into public transport you need that cultural shift to happen you need radical to go up obviously with lower ridership theres lower investment the bus is worse and worse as less people ride it and vice versa right so you need you need to get more people riding and i think thats great if you if you begin trialing Certain Services certain bus lines making them for getting people on its and showing that it works that people will take it and that you know you can put on more services and therefore increase the ridership right. Horses for courses sirica when we talk about india its a different ballgame again isnt it when youre dealing with a country with a population of more than a 1000000000 and cities with millions and millions of people and not a great deal of wealth around in many parts of them how do you take on tackling the transport infrastructure of the future in india so if you want to focus in. This because you dont feel this is a good move and the other stuff the system is mostly before us we could actively actively impose any of them what they instead said what we. Saw efficiency based. Ben media can be summed up in the hullabaloo and sometimes more and more published up with a system in all of us to use in cities because as you know as you well i like i said you have to differ secondly if we have 5 in my as the most value if you do both authors well we see that its you know that also somehow we need to hope the. Eye and the dissolution if thats in effect a concourse of them and its probably blocking him 2nd just. Because the other she did more than that its that it might be many other many see that image and to do them made is that the sort of many you can see is that make disapproving the right not to give the right you out of it given assistance in ghosts and it is not because if you eat beef was really gone so move all of it or you can force just opportunities and the only defense insurance of fact is provided being assertive. And united will. Come from things have got to change in a big way as we move into the latter half of this century and were talking ideally about a 0 carbon world what might transport Solutions Look Like as we enter the brave new era. Well i would certainly be and i would certainly prefer indorse you know more investment into Public Infrastructure absolutely i dont but i want to drive im going to have to show that it works and there is that kind of a metaphor circulating and thats about right now that the public the cherry on the cake but the congress did not is that which it needs to be bait 1st and so we right now did have the transport options you know are very weak and you know we were times are more investment worse yeah. We were talking about earlier before the program started and you looked at helsinki didnt you which is challenging the kind of widely accepted views of how mobility should be and kind of organizing the priorities tell us about yeah i mean theyre finding ways to you know not only work with private companies and in the Public Infrastructure but also to sort of build you know rebuild and build new parts of the city to in order to again disincentive eyes cars theyre putting no parking on the street for example so if someone wants to build a parking garage in their building they can but their their take is that well they will probably be you know valuable enough real estate that they wont do that and so people it is especially if you have good public transport theyre making that really really important you know and theyre also trying to get people to to walk in cycle thats thats another really actually relatively low cost way to get people away from cars and to have People Living in a more you know healthy life in the public realm right so you put in cycle lanes that that can take you where a need to go you show people that its safe to do that you know thats that can be another way to go about this and theyre kind of pioneering that right and thats how the focus is as its going from walking is the priority then biking then public transport then then cargo shifting calgary around and brought aboard the list scotts right i mean naturally there will be you know the need to deliver goods there will be some cars around you know as we head into the future of Autonomous Vehicles small smaller electric vehicles you have new possibilities for health you know you could you could have cars and there. But they are all shared theyre not privately owned for example so theyre always in use theyre not parked on the street or theyre not you know sitting around most of the time so theres a lot of ways as we especially as we get new technology to to address this. Its all part of. The need to have a new mindset if you like in the way the way we look at public transport. This is going to publish them or men for the poor because that sort of you are putting. Into these. India pakistan you have all the parts and off the hook. I just fell victim support system and india india and i dont see 75 percent off a lot of money on patient if protests im sitting more than 1. 00 growth. But this is somehow. Contradicting other bees and other. Activities making funding centricity us how do things look at addition all or indeed a thing wont ship the perfect human being to the needs of that investment block and that. If an system will fall back as i actually said in the market but back to you know if you want the input of the cost of the stuff you need to focus on more than loving the stuff that my going to do need to put up with the system then we need to make a lot of discomfort to some the a. D. C. And later i was getting that i was and that i can get mike up to the system and back in front of him back and then he got it back and i dont think this is the fugitive weve just found a fungus to work. And that were going to actually go there in the end what youre seeing more and more at best but i love her budgeting. Ok and we need to help us out of doing more with the bottle thats like them defense obviously fucking fun to see a lot of it isnt about all sex i got really good at her job and members are coming im sort of it was one thing and just coming out of iran and gave her i just wanted just that good. Your take on this if you were designing is the new city how would you how would it look in the shape of its public transport system if you had that kind of blank canvas to develop what you wanted i think what were talking about before i mean you know a lot of cities they have to work with what they have right and so that can be difficult to put the kind of ideal. Transport mobility lets say system in place but but i think i think Something Like you know what helsinki is trying to do is a great approach i think you know you you prioritize getting people out into the street and having them on ground level you know cycling or walking right now where thats not possible you have you know good electric options for you know mobility around their own core and then you have you know the trick would be i think very important is to have these kind of easy intermodal connections you have you know you can get on to the next thing the Long Distance train or even the plane you know seamlessly where you dont have to those are the pain points i think where youre kind of pushed toward a car where you dont want to have to do the kind of awkward connection from one thing to another so you know i think i would start with that yeah what about you whats your sense of the amount of research and investment thats going into the transport systems of the future in global cities. I would say there is a lot of work to be done absolutely and i also want to stress to every city really is different in the any chance where an Infrastructure Project needs to respond to the local problems and local really specific issues so you know theres not theres a lot of work to be done i salute lee and i think the point is that before we talk about kind of or thomas colors and free rides that in many ways people would say wouldnt just be great if the trains run on time right yeah thats key having it work well punctual reliable frequent service i think and easy connections yeah i mean the cars dot com is concerned just very briefly if you would do you think you see that as a kind of leader in your i think it could be more of a leader you know if it has a good system i think that its great that in in stockholm in sweden in general you can get anywhere you need to go without a private car basically and thats something you cant say for many places for example my home country of the u. S. But i think they could they could do more i think they could invest more i see cities like copenhagen with its incredible adoption of cycling already helsinki with its sort of attempt to create new solutions i see them doing more it at least if we talk about that region all right well great its been a fascinating discussion talking about a little glimpse into the future thank you very much will be a really a constant car and so recap pondered but thanks very much indeed and thank you too for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website aljazeera dot com and for further discussion just go to our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com ford slash a. J. Inside story and of course you can also join the conversation on twitter. At a. J. Inside story i mean the clock on the whole team here is good bye for now. Aljazeera who is beneath the waves with a team of women determined to save the dolphins we all share the same it was appealing to me to do something today but next time a thing i mean by using a variety of scientific techniques to study their behavior we can monitor them for their vocal photos and behavior were able to how theyre adapting to their new environment women make science dolphin sanctuary on aljazeera. Jews iraq. With and for you. In the war. Aljazeera. In a table in doha this is the news hour on aljazeera coming up in the next 60 minutes and you confrontation on the borders of europe turkey releases video of the greek coast guard trying to scare off a boat load of migrants ending his attempt to solve the libyan conflicts the u. N. Special envoy steps down days after the failure of the latest talks also this hour the coronavirus death toll triples in its lead as the European Union raises its risk level