The west is winning the words of the u. S. Secretary of state taking aim at china and russia mike peo also sought to reassure european allies concerned by president trumps policies pot is the u. S. Stance on Global Politics really that positive for the western powers or is it undermining their alliance this is inside story. Hello and welcome to the program im peter dalby Transatlantic Relations are not what they once were neither is the relationship indeed between france and germany and european leaders are concerned by the u. S. President Donald Trumps america 1st policy theyve to fit with him in several areas from iran to china this was reflected during the annual Munich Security Conference divisions arose between leaders as they discussed whether the west is losing influence to other global powers the answer from the u. S. Secretary of state mike pompei a was everything is just fine pompei you boasted the west is winning and the Transatlantic Alliance is not dead it rejected remarks by the german president who warned that the United States is putting its own interests 1st at the expense of its allies. Unknowns and stuff abundant or even our closest ally the United States of america under the current government rejects the idea of an International Community as if the attitude of thinking about yourself 1st could be Global Politics as if everyone started to think that its right to think about themselves only great again if necessary at the expense of neighbors and partners at least thats the way it appears. A few recent quotes from western leaders this quite frankly surprised me the 1st was from the middle of 2017 quote the fact that our friend an ally has come to question the very worth of its mantle of Global Leadership puts into sharper focus the need for the rest of us to set our own clear and sovereign course end of quote the 2nd one is from about a year ago so lateral order is experiencing its perhaps greatest crisis since the emergence of its emergence after the 2nd world war and a quote. The final one was from just yesterday. A quote suggesting quote that the United States rejects the International Community and of quote. Here this morning to tell you the facts those statements simply do not fact in any significant way or reflect reality. Im happy to report that the death of the Transatlantic Alliance is grossly over exaggerated the west is winning we are collectively winning were doing it together well the french president emanuel does not agree with mr pump. God or government that he didnt answer when i look at the world as it is being shaped and that is the theme of your conference this year there isnt data weakening of the west 15 years ago we thought that our values were universal that we were going to dominate the world in the long term that we would dominate in terms of technology and military and so on and then i look at the horizon of 10 to 15 years were going to be increasingly pushed by other agendas and other values they are emerging in the u. S. And europe dont see eye to eye on a number of policies including president Donald Trumps decision to withdraw the u. S. From the 2050 Iran Nuclear Deal several European Countries also didnt join a u. S. Ban on the chinese tech giant huawei playing a role in their 5 g. Networks mr frum has criticized european allies for not spending enough on Defense Budgets to support nato and the u. S. Opposes a new gas pipeline project known as north stream to between russia and germany across the baltic sea the e. U. Considers trumps middle east plans a departure from International Agreements on the palestinian israeli conflict. I. Bring in our guests in moscow we have glenn dyson professor of International Relations at the highest school of economics and author of the decay of western civilization and the resurgence of russia joining us from brussels is to reason fallon director of the center for russia europe and asia studies and formerly a member of the strategic advice as group to nato we also have in london roderick why hes an associate fellow at the Asia Pacific Program at Chatham House and formerly a counsellor and head of research on asia to the foreign and Commonwealth Office in whitehall welcome to you all glynn dyson in moscow if i can come to you 1st is the west winning. I would say no it seems like the west is weakening itself especially for compared to 30 years ago when the cold war came to an end now at this point in time the west was at the strongest it had well to some extent won the cold war so it had a lot of material wealth but also it had an ideological power that is or soft power us it had a moral purpose is itself having the task of advancing liberalism in the world now what weve seen over the past 30 years is that even Something Like like liberalism can go too far and over the last 30 years you know people have been asking her what would happen to the economies wise the economy becoming more and more unequal the National Culture being replaced will among multiple multiculturalism the Mass Immigration none of this questions see either political problems on the left the right havent really been able to been resolved within this neo liberal construct i think for this reason now you seeing in more of the west fragmenting into different populist movements both on the right and the left and just on a 2nd dimension would be the external one given that under this new liberal hedge of money we created after the cold war it it didnt really leave any room for russia in europe which is why now we have to expand in the 2 up to russia. Borders building Missile Defense on its borders is forcing its neighbors to shift between the west and now the russians are fictive the pushing back so i think their worst is seeing an internal fragmentation but also more confrontation with countries such as russia would share was never effectively given any. Legitimate space in europe after the cold war series a felon in brussels was this for you a domestic speech delivered internationally by mr pompei. At the Munich Security Conference that was just held over the weekend he did say democracy is winning and that kind of language is what resonates with the u. S. Audience but it he was followed by defense secretary esper whose whole talk is pretty much china china china so its a very different different narrative and the europeans felt that the pump speech wasnt very well received and that it wasnt actually very well written weve seen a decline in democracies throughout the world and that oratory rise in the Biggest Issue right now for europeans is how theyre going to navigate between an authoritarian china and the u. S. Also theyre worried about russia as we have this difficult narrative and how the u. S. Is going to map it out they made it pretty clear at the Munich Security Conference that europe is going to have to choose and this is one thing that europe does not want to have to do will require in london so clearly the u. S. Expects the European Countries to square off against china focusing in on way this massive tech giant why does it need that to happen. Well they focusing in on china because this is the what number one preoccupation of the u. S. And the u. S. President at the moment in Foreign Policy terms the confrontation with china i mean europe recognizes that china is more of a can a competitor europe realizes that there is much that needs to be done to protect and promote our own interests these are the china but that is not necessarily doing exactly what the United States says when the United States says it and europe has to find its own way just as. I mean in in concert with the United States perhaps but not following everything that the u. S. Does the triumph of liberalism or whatever you like to call it is not exactly the same as the triumph of the United States threes a felon coming back to you for a 2nd one could have been deafened by the the silence from the delegations from berlin from paris as well why is it so awkward for them why is it so awkward for them because who doesnt want a free ride so theyre very accustomed to the u. S. Of giving security through nato but they also see great Economic Opportunities with china and china has made it very clear that you know that they expect europeans to fall into line so no one wants to upset traina and these red lines are kind of invisible so that even Member States especially are very much under pressure we see this happening in sweden right now with almost daily comments from the Chinese Ambassador criticizing the swedish government and there is no. Help from the rest of the e. U. So each Member States pretty much on their own and. The inability for europe to even come up with a china strategy or to speak with one voice has left you Member States on their own so we saw as you mentioned at the unit at Munich Security Conference there france or germany wants to upset china and the most interesting thing was that one of the last speakers of the day was. Burrell and many people were already leaving by then so it almost seems that the European Union is getting downgraded glenn in moscow coming back to you as well there is another axis underneath this or a possible axis surely and its this one emanuel markram says europe should deal with russia does he actually mean he should deal with russia. Well now that germany is somewhat weakened after medical and is on her way out certainly france sees itself as taking a bit of a leadership role within europe and i think what others who are saying this is quite correct now that chinas rising as a key rival to the United States the u. S. Will see the 1st priority to challenge or to marginalize china now from this perspective that that west they envision is one where the europeans will fall in line and follow its chinese policy however if the e. U. Would do this they would diminish their own ability to diversify their ties to become more dependent on the u. S. And will go back to the cold war structures where the e. U. Had very little autonomy and and so for this reason i think that they have been indifferent interested to have a different approach to china but also with russia now mccrone stood out compared to the other europeans do in terms of wanting to improve relations with russia and of course i think he sees on to something because russias main concerns theyre not unreasonable this idea that you know then they bring countries shouldnt be forced to look east or west maybe uniting europe under big big military bloc which is doesnt include russia like all of this creates various there are some structures so you can resolve this through dialogue so i so. But i think of course he sees this as his while under his leadership of course in london clearly for mr pompeo he seems to see a heavy handed slightly predatory approach when it comes to how the government in beijing does what it does when it wants to carry through on its aspirations particularly for what way thats the key thing that we have to drill down into if you were distilling all that down and giving that to the Foreign Office in london would you be telling them that is factually correct or is just a a worry that shouldnt really be dealt with. It is it is both in and of itself its a worry and in a in a wider sense its a worry its we havent really come fully to terms with the implications of ai and Technology Technological change and what those will mean for Foreign Policy for state security and it is a very great risk in my view to commit. Very strongly to. This to a Chinese Company like whoa way where there are. Requirements by the Chinese Government for all chinese citizens and organizations to respond to the government on National Security issues so i think we need to look at this both in terms of why way itself and more widely in terms of security relationships and managing this critical cybersphere that has really not been properly dealt with it an International Level to raise or would this be as big an issue as it apparently is if there was a stronger relationship between paris and berlin angle of merkel is soon to be a thing of the past and her current defense minister has said actually yell run the party but im not going to stand for election next year when germany goes to the polls. That was the elephant in the room at the Munich Security Conference everyone is so used to merkel and her safe steady pair of hands and now her appointed successor a. K. K. Has stepped aside why because of the rise of the right in germany this is something a very serious narrative going on in the background the rise of. The right wing party and what happened in thuringia so. Franco german cooperation on these issues that have been still made it and mccrone is seen as you know a man with a big vision but how is he going to implement this this type of narrative actually repels the poles it upsets the baltic nations so its actually causing more Division Within the e. U. And you know people in brussels will say fine wed love to you know work with process soon as they leave crimea going dyson in moscow so to quote the German Defense minister how does a quote consensus of words become a consensus of action we seem to be in a period of people trying to push other people to reinvent themselves but nobodys quite clear what the direction is here. No and i think thats quite correct in the you see now the being pushed in very different ways for a variety of reasons you just mentioned technologists there obviously the americans have been unable to really translate their security dependency by the europeans into as a national geo economic loyalties so you see europeans now signing up for their. Technology platforms you see them signing up for the belt and World Initiative countries from you know turkey and others are buying russian Weapons Systems and all of this goes against irrespective of american objections and threats of sanctions so if you see now someone trying to subject ptolemy others are seeking more closer alignment with the u. S. Especially poland then. But then also in terms of russia the relation is quite different because of course during the cold war for many eastern europeans and the cold war a lot was largely about the dominant of russia so for them after the cold war they wanted not necessarily to raise the Division Lines but rather to move to the east and to a large extent thats what happened now if im not going on says that he wants to have a different approach to russia. Then essentially what the russians want is to remove the dim Vision Alliance in europe and that would obviously make the Baltic States and poland quite uncomfortable. You know that goes against their historical narrative and the way they see the main challenges being in the world and roderick picking up on that idea of a change of narrative if france says we should be looking towards russia russia is kind of pivoting towards eurasia surely its working on its relationship with turkey to do with on going events the situation in syria as well youve got the whole brics debate which is still active in europe and russia is saying actually no were going to start looking east no its south and west. I mean i think this is part of the underlying situation that rick that we are faced with that this is a we are in a very fluid International Situation at the moment with things changing really quite rapidly and there is less confidence to be frank in the International Institutions that we had sort of grown up with if you like and these are not working as well as they might but there is still a lot to be said for working towards a rules based International Order you may not like the International Order as it stands at the moment you may be seeking to maneuver through your own particular countrys advantage but there is still a lot to be said for finding ways of working together to deal with some of the problems that we are facing as as a world things like Climate Change these cant be dealt with simply by geo strategic maneuverings to reason in brussels is the language wrong here when when mr pompeo says the west is winning if you have a winner by definition you have a loser and that means that washington is framing beijing as being the loser here because thats maybe not the most nuanced approach to have towards the Chinese Government also the mindset that they always have as well it was very interesting because at the Munich Security Conference food being brought up this issue of huawei and immediately in all the Chinese Press it was shown as a victory but weve seen you know while youre kind of was asleep but china was able to create a lot of leverage by buying companies and businesses in europe creating leverage and also coopting elites so its very difficult for europe to speak with one voice on a hallway and this is kind of a red line for the u. S. But this narrative of cold war 2. 0 i dont think it really fits the situation that were in were really in uncharted territory weve never seen this before and some analysts have even said this is almost like a prewar period but with technological technology at it so i think its very does. Rodrick why that its a very disruptive period this transitional period is extremely dangerous and we dont even have the vocabulary dont have the language to describe really what is happening at such a rapid pace rodrick why is this a prewar period and if it is what form would that war take were told constantly now that the next big global war will not be guns tanks and missiles it will be hospitals closed done by remote it will be a Voting System that is completely obliterated because of use of technology it will be people being manipulated say as well. What we are saying when when you say that kind of thing is that there are a whole load of new weapons and alternatives open to states to. Pursue their interests particularly if if we come to a very hostile situation but if you look at it from the other side there is no great value that i can see for widespread conflict of the kind you are taking talking about between big supernational if you like power as we see endless nation to nation conflicts and within nation conflicts going on but the bigger ones are just so awful and potential consequences that i think still people are drawing back. Or would draw back from from from the brink on that on their own we see a lot of maneuvering we see a lot of maneuvering because it is a period of fluidity and there are opportunities and there are times when you might say yourself as winning or losing but to describe relationships between china and the United States and russia in europe or russia or in the United States as ones where you can actually win or lose i think is a very mistaken way of looking at things glenn coming back to you in the immediate short if mr pompei o slash the trumpet ministration doesnt get what it wants might there be a real consequence and could it be a lack of information and intelligence sharing between the United States and its european allies. It could be because so well the way weve had not the same but similar instances instances in the past that is the u. S. Obviously you know the Central Power in the International System now usually once had a man emerges after war in this instance a cold war it tends to develop an International System which. Seeks to benefit itself now once this had them and then the clients. You know you see other countries their rivals beginning to come up with alternatives and at some point this death or ity of the hedge im on starts to disappear and this kind of the very difficult and destabilizing period that were currently going into or so i. Did the us to come to see as relegating to some extent on the responsibilities it usually had towards other western allies in addition its seeking to make sure that countries like china and russia cannot challenge its authorities so at the moment theres a lot in the air and not really sure where the pieces are falling just yet to reason obviously the trumpet ministration feels it has choices the trumpet ministration believes all the other European Countries have choices as well for the authorities for the powers that be in beijing what do they believe their choices are. Well i think china has a Clear Strategy to make the world safe for the Chinese Communist party and weve seen a growth of assertiveness on the part of the chinese and its not just in their neighborhood they expect certain behavior from everyone so we say why our way or the highway so those countries that dont embrace weiwei their businesses inside china will be punished now this doesnt mean so much for a small country that really doesnt have much of a business interest in china but for become a country like germany theyre really sitting on the fence here because the Intelligence Services in germany will say dont buy it dont embrace it whereas the businesses are telling whispering in merkels ear you must embrace weiwei or our companies will be penalised inside china so its this conundrum that these countries must face and i think that china has really position themselves extremely well i always say that the best strategy china has been able to do is to convince everyone in europe that they dont have a strategy and that theyve been able to coopt elites and invest very carefully and strategically and now they can call you know call the terms we even saw in the u. K. For example house half the house of lords have some sort of title huawei so it wasnt much of a surprise when even the Intelligence Services were concerned in the u. K. About huawei that eventually Boris Johnson has decided to embrace weiwei thank you for that the clock has beaten us as ever here on inside story thank you to i guess they were clint dyson too is a fellow wrote required thank you to you to your company you can see the show again any time by going to our website aljazeera dot com and for further discussion to check out our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com forward slash him inside story and also join the conversation on twitter our handle is at a. J. Inside story for me Peter Doherty and the team here in doha thanks for watching well see you again tomorrow but like. I. Talk to aljazeera we talk about 2 of the biggest problems facing them they all the endemic corruption the gun we listen so if you really put place chinas ahead of me a little more theres another really than yours we meet with global news makers and tweak about the stories the back to know just 0. The un published the most comprehensive study of life on. They found 1000000 species face extinction thats more than 12 percent of known life on. What im trying to destroy the much Oil Infrastructure on which all wild to have the report identifies the 5 main drivers of this crisis 1st the way we use and abuse all products resources 75 percent of the lad and 2 fads of the Marine Environment have been severely to by human activity exploitation of species through over fishing and hunting Climate Change caused by a Greenhouse Gas emissions pollution and finally the how to create told local ecosystems by invasive species. Who are supposed to say the decline can be slowed even stopped in some cases but to do that we must transform our relationship with. On counting the cost food coronavirus and its impact on the gas market spending billions of dollars to save trillions later from new york future cost so we look at the cost of while using sea level food oceans warm up dogs improve our risky itll. Come to the gulf on aljazeera. Its come to the zebrafish storytelling around the Biggest Issues done but had to do you should do it again. Hello im adrian setting and the top stories on aljazeera japan has confirmed 99. 00 for the cases of the coronavirus on board a quarantined cruise ship in yokohama port it takes the total number of infections to 454 aboard the ship hundreds of american passengers have been flown back home 14 among them a confirmed to have the right the virus but not all of chosen to leave Matthew Smith is one of those still stuck on board he says he was worried about getting the virus if he left the ship with other people but essentially we decided that the circumstances in which they were going to provide the flight and the requirement that we do another 2 week or emptiness no we hadnt done one