World leaders meeting in berlin agree to stop sending weapons to libya and for new talks and the civil war but on the ground the fighting goes on so will the many Foreign Countries feeding the conflict back off and who has the power to stop libyas slide further into crisis this is inside story. Hello and welcome to the program im dennis now libyas civil war is now in its 6th year a host of countries is involved with Turkey Russia and france just to name a 3 providing support to the 2 sides vying for power the u. S. Backed government of fire. And the wall after now on sunday at a summit in berlin World Leaders agreed to respect the u. N. Arms embargo and work towards a permanent ceasefire so dargent have to both attended the talks but they didnt even sit in the same room however german chancellor Angela Merkel believes the meeting helped lay the groundwork for another meeting in geneva later this month the only comes in and 40 soon we feel we need to work further on the process to find a political solution and uphold the ceasefire todays conflict in libya has become a proxy war we hope to change the situation and finally return the libyan peoples right to live together in peace this return to the political process is essential. All the parties to engage in a leave you no longer live in a dialogue and the auspices of United Nations paving the way for a political solution to the crisis well libyas warring sides are backed by Different Countries as youve already heard some of which provide military hardware despite a u. N. Arms embargo the un recognized government of National Accord or the d. N. A. Led by Prime Minister fires al surat has a support of italy cata and turkey its base in the capital tripoli in the west of the country in the east into brooke theres a rival administration which backs holly for half that hes supported by egypt the United Arab Emirates and france Russian PrivateSecurity Forces are also reportedly fighting alongside half barrels forces. All right lets introduce our guests now in tripoli the libyan capital we have if to we a former libyan minister of planning in florence in italy we have version in colombia a professor at the middle east Directions Program in the European University institute and in berlin in germany gallup july a visiting scholar at the university of oxford welcome to you all that is or can i come to you 1st so gay lover off the Russian Foreign minister has described the berlin conference as a small step forward but how on earth can you consider that a success when there is fighting continuing on the ground and libyas Oil Production the means of its support has been drastically reduced. That is a video through i think in bolivia just made some wishes for libyans some good wishes for libya they are not really what employers any mechanism that will hold the few cease fire or when the oil fields so are really remain with the center tuition actually who are living with the more school or whatever has been done and more school but the balloon has north so far on the ground people are still out of all. You know the disability people are so not able to reaching to reach their home those who try and they were killed immediately we still see Voting Machines in the ceasefire. So practically. We have lists fighting but in the reality we cannot touch anything on the ground as far as bullying is concerned all right and then coming to you gallop in berlin the early in count friends that happened on sunday seem to place an awful lot of emphasis on the foreign intervention in the situation in libya and a centerpiece if you like of the final communique was respect and up the holding of the existing u. N. Arms embargo do you think that turkey for instance do you think that russia will abide by this and start to withdraw or pull back on their support for the opposing sides. Well i dont think that it will be the case we might see like some laws in terms of support the military support to the warring sides but i think this will with only a small interruption not like you will and or the holding of the military support to the war inside the trouble is through the berlin and the other International Processes with trade the board size the un recognized the government in tripoli but also the war as having equal legitimacy and as i will you call weight i thin thats the premises of which is completely fallacious in the end on the one hand you have the your retinas government yes yes absolutely got abandoned and the point youre making but on but also you have to recognize do you not that half the controls around 2 thirds of libyan territory he has to be taken seriously he is part of the any future equation is he not know absolutely he has to be taken seriously but i think this International Process should not turn into the legitimisation of or in that because that if this is the case then you are sending a message to everyone if you can do the things the arms to the militias do it then the International Process will turn what cream you create in the ground into illegitimate process so one of the trouble that i see in things like berlin process that the own willingness to call the spot a spot in there and one of the reason there is advancing is because the support of his getting from the countries like egypt your way and friends and i think the burden of process and then a similar young process should name you know should open a call on this countries to not to provide support what everyone call what iran framed as a war road so in this regard the legitimacy of the u. N. Legitimacy is what is at stake right ok lets get a vision in our in florence version a neither of our. Gesine particularly optimistic that this berlin conference is going to yield anything much anything positive at least how do does the situation. Change what needs to happen in all the for there to be. A credible ceasefire for instance. Well you just mentioned one of the most important points and there has been no major breakthrough during the conference contrary to maybe some hopes has been no consolidation or formalisation of the cease fire agreement or his the truce that had been pushed for by a rush on the one hand in turkey last week so here i mean everything looks like a kind of gentlemens agreement in which a much will depend on the actual goodwill of the various International Players involved in the conflict but also on the u. N. Security council it seems quite obvious that. The conclusion of the cease fire will depend on some follow up negotiations that should stop shortly weve heard a miracle say yesterday that the formation of Followup Committee has had been agreed upon so the idea now is that we take the discussions one step further and try to dig into the details of some of the necessary details that need to be agreed upon especially on the Security Sector reform the economy and the biblical process but it means that none of the main actors have really given up so far or right if theyre coming back to you in tripoli i mean youre living with the situation on a daily basis without a change in terms of foreign intervention is it a tool possible that a ceasefire can be established and up held in libya today. No no not at all and. You know this ceasefire was not even possible and i think it was really excellent work by turkey and russia who really you know. Succeeded in making this is fire allies we dont really expect lets let me interrupt there let me interrupt there is a because of course after himself didnt sign the cease fire at the meeting in moscow he walked out and a half so how much influence really does russia have on the process in libya what it turned our there they dont have really full. Full influence but we have to understand that have to or is not in his own you know hes not in his own control one half that is supported by other. You know countries like him or not and they dictate what have to are supposed to do and they were with him and most schools will did not let them sign but to some extent the ceasefire is holding with some violations. But it is theyve all right and then i would like to just explain place i would like to explain one thing. It is not fair to talk about the 2 size as equal size as far as this war and i have to wish this war on terror believe. Before that we were going to a political solution in in of adamus but he violated this and he attacked at the beginning. The government of the called never bought in the world was never built or he had to really fight for it for a force to reproduce or they are in the defense situation and as soon as they were asked to stop the war they are ready to stop but this war is one sided war alright and the ones who are to war to stop the war and withdraw nobody will or will follow them or i this is a point that gallup made a bit earlier and that there is in your view there is a kind of equivalence being given to both sides and yet you consider half as is the aggressor in all of this but tell me how do you think western European Countries now should be responding to the crisis because it seems as though they turned their backs on libya for the best part of a year but all of a sudden it seems as though western europe is coming back in force and trying to make a difference. Well i think well i think the 1st and foremost the western European Countries should basically form a position a unified position because within the context of libya what we see is a rivalry between italy and france taking place as well to vote or or source for the opposition side and this is the aggravating the crisis this is only they put in the crisis so 1st and foremost is a western european powers are going to form a policy position because they are in berlin process all the e. U. Institution was the head of the e. U. Commission the head of the European Council the e. U. s chief friend of foreign representative and all the major european west European Countries was that what the trouble is that didnt seem so much consensus among them when it comes to when it comes to libya and particularly the friends seems to be like you know playing a role in tendons with intend on with. Egypt and u. A. E. That is not very fruitful and that is not very of contributing into the stability of the libya in this regard i think you know particularly germany and italy should assert as much as possible and particle sporter un process and support the legitimacy so in this regard we once again so we should not indulge the maximalist position of after because in there and he was the one thats not the effort in in moscow for a ceasefire and he is right now the one that is there you know or indulging in stubbornness and maximal ism so in this got it should not be just a plea for the sides to abide by the ceasefire but actually there should be a clear mechanism of pressure if any of the science seems to be low value right ok listen until we put like you know clear reference points for the violator i dont think that we are going to come up with any form of a sustainable ceasefire in states like you know the particularly the or hotter will continue with its maximals disease all right again one way or another gallup virginie coming to you now is it true to say is it a fair statement to say that europe. Pretty much views the problem the crisis of libya through the prism of irregular migration obviously thousands and thousands of whom have either reached italy or died in the mediterranean theyre seeing the the problem in libya through that lens and obviously the way the production of oil affects the Energy Markets i mean is that fair to say as regards to the european view of libya. Well im not so sure its only this for sure the migration threat as it is presented as long constituted a major issue for the European Union and in particular for some countries within their opinion like for instance italy for other countries within the e. U. The focus has been much more on Security Issues if you think of france for instance their interest in the focus that they had on security issue counterterrorism specially focusing on the south of libya this is also one of the issues that theyve used as nongovernment to support and provide military support to have to force isnt the best actually though over the past weeks the fact that europes marginalization and weakening on the diplomatic scene has come clearly to the fore and the fact that russia and turkey had started to play a much more Important Role positioning themselves as mediators in the conflict after being president militarily as all be asleep constituted a major wake up call for europe and clearly you see also that from the part of european diplomacy for france to mr well they have started to become much more active of the past weeks because clearly for europe having 2 major powers russia and turkey taking the lead in 1st. I mean supporting military developments on the ground in a country which is so close to each really and to the borders of you is problematic also because by doing so theyve positioned themselves as key players capable of. Also framing not only assess fire possibly and how to implement a cease fire but also the rules of the game for political agreements for probably were not there and theyre not so influential so far but i think the e. U. s clearly perceived russia and turkey is becoming more influence as a kind of threat and something that they needed to react to right ok coming back to you is so now lets lets have a little look at the political process with. The u. N. Secretary general talking about a return to the u. N. Led political process that is owned by libyans but also im drawn to a quote by gus and salamanca calls the u. N. Special envoy who said recently that libya is a vast country with strong local identities thats the population there heavily armed and theres a weak government infrastructure gotten salamis assessment of the situation is that its a difficult country for one group to control do you agree with that do you think that one leader can lead a united libya one of course one leader can lead the united libya and we we can you know think of the dirty been there for 42 years but eventually that system was collapsed i think they have the you will be in our midst really dealing with libya in 2011 they have helped libya to overcome a very severe dictatorship. And the libyan were happy really to go to a new democracy they went to elections very successfully looks in in july 2012 they brought used them and a government but the intervention of the external forces the enemies of democracy you know those people who think that democracy is dangerous for them they have into the field and they have spoilt the process and believe me believe me despite the number of weapons into the body the problem is not from the weapons and it is not from the people as soon as the external forces withdraw their hands from libya libya will settle down and would become very stable country because we are naturally stable so they will be should really they ignore the problem correctly and they should not install a new dictator in libya thinking that this will help them stop the immigration problem right the secure the security or i or the libyan have a story and so i didnt sorry to interrupt you there is a lets go to gallup in berlin and gallup if weve got 2 parties led by surat on the one hand and hafter on the other and they dont even want to sit in the same room how on earth can you expect there to be any kind of political process at the u. N. Maybe being overoptimistic by suggesting that within the next week or so to also take place in geneva. Well i think 2 things one of the situation is not very promising as we have this cause but one thing is for once again in china powers do have a means of leverage if theyre war that if theyre willing to apply to them because thus far the International Powers did not use their leverage. Very much they were dictated by the stranger on the ground and the situation on a grant was dictated by the warring sides and their. Backers so in this got a what we are going to end be libya house 2 neighbors one of them is tunisia one of them is egypt and i think in this regard right now what is at stake in libya is the contest also to model one of the model of egypt which effectively means in the form of the hubs are having and libyan libyan cissie in trouble you see poorly and i think this will be a terrible news for the europe having another c. C. In its near abroad and the 2nd one is tunisia where it was a messy process it in what like many compromises many concessions many many you know debate at the publics for but still it is the whole italy working and then the e. U. Through sport is so in this regard the question should not be whether it is hostile or all of. Us it is what mother should prevail in libya are we going to once again abandon the libya to another military dictatorship on the shore to europe or are we going to the sport of transition no matter its going to be. Quite congress on one so in this guy i think like the principles that we have to 1st set on is not by can or a person or b. Person but what kind what form of the government should prevail on the doorstep or of europe and in this about unfortunately despite the heavy your pimp a presence in berlin that was more european position that would have supported such a model that could be right for you and good for the libyans of same to me is good is gallup right its a right when he says. This is basically about 2 opposing ideas 2 opposing models of government what is in your opinion the dividing line if you like between those who support haftar and those who support the un recognize jna in tripoli what is the dividing line. Well i think its true to suck to a large extent there are 2 competing visions for governments that have been fighting themselves over the past months and years but i think maybe more interestingly what is at stake now and i think what is to some extent also wearing in the conclusions of the bilin conference yesterday is that when the return to the political process is mentioned it seems like the way its is and the vision looks like a kind of return to the libyan political agreement of 2015 and not so much a return also to the which means to some extent a kind of power sharing agreement between the Major Political and security actors and not so much a return or at least. Taking into account also her son salaam is bigger idea of the National Conference was main aim and i think its very important was to try and i divert the political at least balance the influence of these warlords from both camps and try to make those actors that have actual influential influence within society to low them to play a political role to diet to try and balance this influence of the warlords and make sure that the power sharing agreement would not only reward their behavior their position of power but try and build a political scene which would be less organized around these 2 blocks that are opposing themselves in a very ideological way and i think unfortunately it might be that the priority is go towards spyware sharing agreement and much less towards trying to build a consensus among Political Forces so it means much more focus on those warlords that have dominated the scene for the past months and unfortunately ok it is coming back to you in tripoli giving you the last word is that how you see it do you see that the libyan people are condemned if you like to enjoy a still more conflict until such time as talks in geneva get underway with a real chance if you like of delivering some kind of National Program for the country. Ok the libyan of people are just coming out of a very you know of severe as i said they describe it as a severe dictatorship they were isolated they did they have no experience with democracy and. They never exercised through economy did bindon annoying the hand of state so that we expect the western world to help us achieve our democracy actually they need they want to have a democracy and they prove that in the beginning in. July 7th 2012 now they have been led to think that they what are what were what are you know the only what were the only thing they need is beasts because they deprived of their right to exercise their democracy now i think the the free world should stand with the libyans to build their civil state and their own democracy and this is the only way that you can find a proper partner to deal with all right and this should really stop there gratian of have to who is trying to install a family state. You knew the yankee i have to i have a big i have to jump in there unfortunately were out of time thank you so much is a tool we just live from tripoli virginie colombia a talking to us from florence and gullit delight talking to us from berlin thank you very much indeed for an interesting conversation thank you as ever for watching the program you can see it again and the time you like by going to the website aljazeera dot com if you want more discussion theres always a Facebook Page facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story and theres always a twitter sphere our handle is at a. J. Inside story and im at dennis for me in the whole team here in doha its by for now you get. Journey of discovery. Which is the culprit of a letter not c. Germany addressed to my grandfather aljazeera. Traces of family links back to the regime of Benito Mussolini the nonsense is fascism returned to italian poultry freshers in the family it makes me sick this letter. I found. On aljazeera. 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