The witness on aljazeera. Defiant indian Prime Minister defends his controversial citizenship the deaths of angry protesters sweeping the country the book id like modi change his mind how far is the undermine secularism in india this is inside story. Hello welcome to the program im stan grant a secular state where all religions are welcome and equal before the law now that idea is that the core of indias constitution but many believe its under threat hindu nationalism has been emboldened by Prime MinisterNarendra Modi since he was elected in 2014 his government has taken measures that have raised fears among muslims in particular a new citizenship law officers Illegal Migrants of religious minorities from 3 neighboring countries the right to become citizens of india but it excludes muslims and that sparked anger and protest nationwide laura burton manager reports. 7 its the greatest challenge indias Prime Minister. Has faced since he came to power 5 years ago. Dozens of people have been killed in violence fueled by anger against the citizenship know which opponents say it discriminates against muslims. Addressing thousands of the supporters and the election rally in new delhi modi blame the opposition for stoking the protests began by needle is a belief in my brothers sense the slow has been passed some Political Parties have been spreading rumors they speak a lot of misleading the public they are inciting the public. You know. I want to ask those who are pelting stones and sticks getting people to enjoy police trying to do the us what are you hoping to achieve the police is no ones enemy. The citizenship Amendment Act makes it easier for migrants from afghanistan bangladesh and pakistan who arent muslims to gain citizenship. Critics say the law could lead to many muslims losing their citizenship broader storm or a hug i might have died at staging protests is all right they should not be violent so i oppose that whatever the police are doing i request them not to do it they should also listen we are also indians like you we are also humans. As protests continue in the capital and other parts of the country the government insists the rule will not be repealed i 7 protests have been ongoing since parliament passed a law earlier in december was but a student protest in jamey a 1000000 islamiya university in the capital a week ago turned into a movement of hundreds of thousands of students and antigovernment protesters nationwide. People were angered after Government Forces fought with students and stormed the campus firing tear gas into the library and postures. The worst violence has been in Uttar Pradesh for more than 5000 people have been detained. At least 1500 people have been arrested in other parts of india. So muslims can get citizenship under the citizenship Amendment Act but its feared millions who are unable to provide proof could be rendered stateless even if their families have lived in india for generations who are about a manly aljazeera. Here are some of the measures taken by remotely that have worried the 200000000 muslims who live in india now they form the 2nd largest Muslim Population in the world after indonesia in august the Indian Government revoked the special status of indian administered kashmir that divided the state into 2 territories to be directly ruled from new delhi one consisting of john moon kashmir and the other of the duc and in the Northeastern State of a son nearly 2000000 people including muslims have been excluded from the list of citizens raising fears they could be rendered stateless Indias Supreme Court has awarded control of a disputed religious site in the town of a larger for the construction of a temple many hindus believe the side of a former mosque was the birthplace of the warrior god run and now there are protests over the new citizenship law. Well lets bring in our guest now distraught on nigam is a member of the legal wing of the Hindu Nationalist Organization russ tria Swayamsevak Sangh he joins us by skype from new delhi tarren hiten is a professor in public law and legal theory and hackney fellow in law what im College Oxford university he joins us from london and it is a researcher at the center for research on extremism at the university of oslo she joins us by skype from horning and in the Netherlands Welcome to each of you and tara and this is such a fascinating story that were seeing playing out at the moment when you look at the nature of the protests who is turning out the nonsectarian nature of the protests whats it telling us about india right now. I think the most important thing to notice about the protest is the mortar of a cavity that its using windows that of the Indian Constitution of india has journalistic secular tradition and i would not have imagined as a constitutional lawyer that i would ever see tens of thousands of people reciting in a public collectively indias constitutions and then we go to that what theyre saying fundamentally use we are secure we do not want to be divided up for a long sick tyrian term so why why are we hearing this and seeing this. I think this is a this is a fight for the soul of the country what is what is the kind of country india is going to be this is not just trying to ask my muslim citizens of india this is a protest by and citizens from or different religions and faiths costs races. And and this is a fight about what this country is going to become we have had 70 years of a secular privileged diverse nation the question is will we remain so or even become a majority hereon exclusive. And a nation thats the question before the people look if its a question then to disregard nigam is that what is at stake here is this citizenship Amendment Law or a direct attack on the secure fundamentally constitutional secular nation nature of india no im not not not at all in fact if one reads the citizenship Amendment Act it is not about epic been anybodys citizenship with in the country it is only about giving citizenship to go to you just you persecuted minorities are going to spawn and pakistan and bangladesh but sir if i can you know if you know of any there fundamentally what it is saying is that muslims are not included on that list how is that then not an attack on muslims and an attack on the secular nature of the country see indian in Indian Muslims are not affected by it indian citizens are not people are seeking and people seeking citizenship and not included muslims are not included hindus really live i think so we are clued into christians are included but what people are protesting it out of is that muslims are not include muslims let us understand the object of this act it is a very narrow objective of giving it to go to be just persecuted minorities are used to countries all the state religion is a slum so when muslims are being you know. Mistreated in those countries this is not. Religious persecution by one region. Or sect go to problems within islam those are governance issues of those countries which india d is not required to address and also there is a Historical Context to it because at the time of independence when the partition took place hindus and the other minorities wanted to come to india they were struck by you know giving in acting a law essential services law in pakistan because they wanted them to play in roads and other things because they belonged to she didnt cause at that point of time they were prevented from doing the angle e. G. Very clearly said they should be allowed to come to india so it isnt that contention also in the context of the agreement which happened in 1950 where they promised each other that they will take care of the minorities kept its words in india kept its word and the monarchies grew from 8 percent to 18 percent today where is it 2033 percent minorities in pakistan has been reduced to 3 percent so it is only a narrow objective it does not address Indian Muslims it does not affect indian citizens well that thats not how protesters saying it i want to go to every honest man but law giver a right of reply to that tower now when you hear this that it is not affecting the citizenship of muslims inside the country that effectively youre talking about muslim majority countries to be able to take care of their own does the citizenship law then have a different context how do you read that. Youre going to turn a different issues here one is the constitutionality of the citizenship Amendment Act itself and the 2nd is its going to action with its impact in connection with the National Population registered exercise now just the bill of the act itself is it is college in the language of refugee protection but it excludes a whole swathe of refugees and where these in pakistan where not benefit from the slow but also there is no rhyme or reason why. Is not on the list man might is not on the list no part is not on the list and were done is not on the list the only reason is that the minority protection logic applied to these non muslim majority countries were to quiet the government to include muslims so this is a fairly blatant attempt to to use religion to divide indians but also you know article 14 of the Indian Constitution it got into these the right to equality not just to those who are citizens of india it got in peace the right to equality before an in laws to all persons including those who are not yet citizens so it is a breach of the law itself is a breach of the Indian Constitution but it signals more importantly its expressive symbolic impact is that muslims are less than citizens let me go to it so its impact combined with that population where this survey can talk about what were going to do going to come back to that were going to come back to that but i do want to bring in now and just widen the context of a bit here because what Prime Minister modi has been accused of in the past is playing the he new nationalist charge if you like the philosophy of the new and it has been very successful for you he won an election just a few months ago resoundingly so what does this say about the poor of hindu nash. Billies im inside india well i assume he shares particularly with movies the election and how mainstream the idea is a few nationalism become the thing and governance in india and its important for us to remember that what to suggest and shit and im glad its reflected a forum actually across the world and in particular how anti muslim up there in her and to immigrant other and how racial and ethnic minority i mean has become so prominent in st magistrate its true arent them but this populism this this nationalism the era of the straw man if you like and we are talking about men we hear this from c. Jinping and the attack on the week as we hear it from Vladimir PutinViktor Orban Donald trump has played this cat it was part of the of the brics it discussion in the brics that vote as well why is it so successful it had been successful for modi it has been successful in swim what does it tell us about age yes its very excellent question what is something that unites all of these far right nationalist movements from india to the u. S. The u. K. Preserve the philippines turkey accent or is the idea that there is a cultural identity under threat of the majority and by scapegoating that in the minority that is something that is a primary message that pulls together all of these foreign nationals. Dish people have long memories and we know that there are still those who look to what happened in gujarat when when Prime Minister modi was the chief minister there and a 1000 muslims were killed in riots here at the time become an International Pariah he was accused of not doing anything to stop that the United States banned him from visiting we had the recent ruling on the religious sides that there is a feeling in india that promised a modi is has played this nationalist he knew nationalism codd and that this citizenship amendment fits directly into that what do you side of that. Let us be very clear the all the schemes that the Prime Minister has launched in his 6 years as the Prime Ministership. Have not discriminated between hindus and muslims both in those and muslims have benefited out of it and other minorities as well so that in fact in their areas are more muslims have benefited than the hindus and therefore that does not you know for that kind of allegation that has been made secondly so far as d the. Interest is concerned he brought the brought under control the riots then todays massive rise of the taking place and out of which he can do so also died because of this fighting nobody seems to be aware of that now somebody raised the issue of tamil and during the summer it was a movement about independent state independent country and that they have sought yes we have given to tamils hundreds of thousands. So far as youre concerned that was also right about independent state of rakhine in burma and these are bengali muslims and their 1st you know contact is with bangladesh and that is where they 1st refuse under the un law if they move forward then it is considered an onward not on the basis of religion that are just cannot be given on the basis of religion so any movement beyond bangladesh should be considered for any other reason not for religious persecution together especially just ask you for letting us know yes minister just just politically never did want to do more no there are 2 more important issues out here people Somebody Just talked about article 14 you know the a of violating article 14 there is a concept called reasonable classification inherent in our constitution under which the special and higher rights have been given to muslims and other minorities it is on the basis of same concept this ca has come if you like that this principle then you attack the special privileges given to minorities or the reservation given to certain sections so this is not what active of article 14 there is a concept of the simple classification inherent in our constitution apparently by the Supreme Court of india it is on that basis this law has come and we have done our work before before this law has been brought in the parliament this law has been logically passed by the parliament with majority this is how the laws are made in india there is a fear mongering lot of fear mongering going on among the people that has to be start people dont people on the streets dont even know what this noise is all d about so one has to stuff your mongering lot of politic all parties or do you want to put that then to tyrant is there an element of fear mongering here as dishes this was a law that was passed by the parliament we soon are in ramadi speaking to large crowd as as well today so there is still strong support for someone who has had said before was just reelected a matter of months ago. Look i think this argument of people who dont know what theyre protesting out about is astonishingly patronize ing to the people of india. Basically the point of course article 14 but its resembled classification and the point is whether this classification is a reasonable way for classification to be these networks if you will the intention is to protect religious leaders security minorities protect all of them if your intention is to. Distinguish between different religions that classification longstanding jurisprudence of the Supreme Court principles the contributions say you cannot make a classification based on religion that is simply not it is an investigation right so the and they inclusion of as our families after the most the over inclusion of other religious groups who dont even need to prove persecution under this law so what youre creating is the 2 track system where some people based soley on their religion and nationality get citizenship without having to prove anything and some others have to go through an extremely onerous situation see generally providing evidence of persecution in their countries to maybe get citizenship right that classification because its based on religion and not if the government are you absolutely needs a refugee law in generous fair and just refugee you know but it has to apply to everyone who was persecuted not based on some religions who are and some are not even though it will not count as very reasonable under any. Standing u. S. Prince of the Supreme Court or maybe im just wondering here given what weve seen given the response of the government the crackdown of the government the ban on protests now whether this protest in your view came as a surprise to noor in ramadi that he wasnt expecting this given the success of the new nationalism hindutva if you like previously. Well we can certainly see that basis incidents toward somebody end of the government has been building for a while just by the fact that marie was reelected earlier this year and its also become more prominent in international spotlight in terms of what this government and the previous governments have implemented in terms of achieving their International Stage and that is not something that has gained more International Media and critical attention to me after the Company Issues with kashmir summer and and how last become part of the international spotlight there is a lot of attention to insurance in the movement so im not surprised that the protests planned so much of her great dish was this a stip a misreading of the mood have you been surprised by the anger that is seeing on the streets seem let us be really clear again that 99. 9 percent drug is not participating in this protests and 99. 9 percent of the people are not participating in this protest right but it can be established and can be very as you proved in that you know theres something afoot in not in that case why then the need to ban protests why then the crackdown that were seeing were seeing dying on the streets in these protests if that isnt such a big deal why that response. See the because these protesters turned violent they started burning the public property the buses and the police had to diac to it and nobody can be allowed to burn public property even in qatar i believe if you touch a public Property Police will react anywhere in the country in the National Register of citizen is a constitutional legal obligation of the government up in the us which has to be done it is done by all the countries they maintain their own register which is also. Part of our constitution and various other laws and let me also tell you that indian concepts of nationalism is based on a spirituality it never excludes anybody but the fact remains that there are certain Historical Context to it yes those are slummy countries persecuting these minorities and if there are you know 1st if you can the brothers under islam then there are issues when using language when you are trying to spiritual have a result when you are saying spirituality you meaning hindu laci which is the majority no country you know to know that islam has are our spirits the spirituality does not talk about hindus only talks about everybody but here is the promise reciprocal promise made under the natalie attacks then subsequently in the run with the pack these are obligations that the government of india has which the earlier comments were not doing and also the promise of gandhi who said these people should have been allowed and they were prevented by making law in pakistan which is now broken into 2 countries so yes there are issues there are and some people have gone to the Supreme Court will await the outcome but in my opinion this issue this law is perfectly constitutional based on reasonable classification that classification is given a special privileges to muslims to hire extra muslims than be inducing in the country and therefore i dont think just because we are giving its citizens or people citizenship a few people from afghanistan pakistan bangladesh this will become unconstitutional this is a very new. Object it will the law i can turn over to get your response to that and also whether youre getting a sense here that these protests may in fact have an impact whether they be legal challenges that are successful or whether in fact there is a political response to this that causes a a rethink where do you see this going from here. Today i sit here as an extremely proud citizen if india. A a country whose citizens not just a minority students are willing to take to the streets to defend the rights of minorities and they and the constitution has hope does this mean that the Supreme Court will uphold this law i think the pound us as a right it and saying that we dont know the Supreme Court. Is a complicated institution and some would say even a compromise institution its record in the last few years has not been clear but what the people are claiming despite this propulsion at an extremely violent use of police force you know. Students sitting in the library and studying where the police dont and beat them where not damaging any public property chinas reaction to hong kong looks saintly compared to what democratic india has done to its own people so in that context when people in that tens of thousands take into the streets demanding the right doing to prevent on constitution this is not a movement being led by the opposition because the opposition isnt that decide ok it is a Leaderless Movement that has no n. G. O. S leading it because n. G. O. S have been crushed and so this is a genuinely organic i hope you know Movement Across the country but i dont know what its political impact will be it remains to be seen this of this is uncharted territory we do turn thank you indeed thank you to all of you for joining us with this discussion today disruptor. Tyron khaitan and if the logic and thank you to you for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website aljazeera dot com and for further discussion go to our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter now handle these at a j inside story from a stan grant and the whole team here by fanatic. I. Think stories generate thousands of headlines these protests are saying down with the system and down with all of the parts with different angles from different perspectives just because we came to prison doesnt mean right stuff that the gate separate the spin from the facts the western media jumps on stories without taking down the misinformation from the journalism its about telling the stories of those human beings on the ground with the listening post on aljazeera. Legally prescribe for the pain relief of the sick but taken in life threatening doses by millions in search of a fix. Huge illegal shipments of the opioid tramadol or flood the quest that some. People in power goes to nigeria to investigate the devastating addiction epidemic that is even fueling the boko haram insurgency. West africas Opioid Crisis on and. I thought this conviction that everyone has a deep reservoir of tunnel billeted and if you can give them the opportunity wonderful things start to happen sometimes the simplest situations optimist and pack for ya they are. The main things that sets out 0 apart from other news organizations is that a lot of our reporting is about real people not about ideas or politicians or what they may want to do but how policy and how events affect real people is something something something good a little complicated operations happening if this is not an act of creation i mean i dont know if the office of the work youre doing here is amazing but there arent so many fossils and it feels like this is just a dent what was your relationship with normal or ok the suddenly becomes. This job isnt just about whats on a script or a piece of paper its about whats happening right now. Moranis expected across india as anger over a controversial new citizenship law shows no sign of subsiding. Though youre watching aljazeera live from doha with me for the back to old still coming up russian and Government Forces found at last rebel held area of syria triggering a mass exodus of civilians. Frances president asked west African Leaders to publicly back its military presence in the region as on time french sentiment grows. In a Nicholas Hawkins and where people are queuing outside of banks for hours find out next why since Robert Mugabe left