Hi im Steve Clemons and i have a question what is the dangerous and murky deep state the President Trump keeps talking about lets get to the bottom line. When you hear the term deep state what image does it conjure up is it a secret illuminati that controls everything around us so who are they President Donald Trump has been claiming that there is a vast deep state conspiracy against him for years now like when he said this last month in kentucky we are finally putting american affairs. Yet they did say that the family plans are dr drew resist any changes to their failed policies as they believe it is their right to rule over you have to redistribute your wealth all around the world no thank you no thank you thats why we ended the powers cord. So in Donald Trumps mind what is the deep state is that the quote failed ruling class or the socalled corrupt democrat politicians or the Civil Servants and diplomats who privately find him distasteful fortunately we have 3 people in the room who have all the answers to these questions elaine k. Mark Senior Editor of Brookings Institution blog fix and author of why president s fail and how they can succeed again great book republican strategist and former usa idea official Adolfo Franco thanks for being here adolfo and former Communications Director for the Democratic NationalCommittee John f. Injure thank you all very much for being here we could start this from lots of Different Directions but it all for me to start with you you do support these folks in the white house so what is this deep state conspiracy as you see it inside the u. S. Government determined to undermine the president well i dont think its anything new and i dont i think maybe a new term a new calling phrase when its a deep state but i think every president every administration of Different Levels have complained about i didnt hear barack obama coming out and say hey the deal well i got to do that if you want to jump to that very point you want if i can put it that i just saying is you know but barack obama did complain about leaks every president has complained in some degree about the bureaucracy and people undermining the administrations priority be the democrat or republican but you raise a good point when he said president obama if i could quickly is i think as a general proposition the been around washington 40 years including part of the state because i was in the Civil Service at some point i think the vast majority of individuals in the federal bureaucracy 1st of all have a point of view and it tends not to be republican except for the pentagon to defense and so forth and i also think that they become invested in their parochial interests of those agencies particular regulatory agencies so they put those priorities 1st over those of an administration the problem for republicans has been the fall away generally speaking when repub. When they were seen as a concrete army coming in to vanquish the Civil Service and i think when democrats when social services see this as a Liberation Army coming in to say let the 1000 flowers bloom and you do what you what you will and there is there is the difference which i think has been reflected in the polls that were taken prior to donald trump selection were over a quarter of the Civil Servants said that they would consider resigning their position if you were elected president and 74 percent would support Hillary Clinton thats the bias that exists in the just a reality when Ronald Reagan was president i remember reagan you know james baker people around that world you know that were sectors they expanded their bureaucracies they expanded the number of people working in government it grew to about so i remember republican resume in which the socalled deep state actually flourished elaine you remember that yeah you know i want to say did you remember that time but i remember that but i mean you have spent a lot of time writing about the deep state what it is and isnt so what is you know if you look at the dashboard of what matters in talking about this term how do you see it well the actual term is very very dangerous and it is a great disservice to use this term in regard to the United States government and the reason is that the deep stay at the origin of the term is turkish and it is meant to imply a secret government Civil Servants that go against the law not in favor of the law but you have to understand about the american bureaucracy whether theyre democrats or republicans is they act according to the law and let me give you a perfect example what if tomorrow President Trump decided to pay a visit to the Agriculture Department ok so hed walk in and everybody would want a selfie with a minute would be all great exciting and then what if he said to these bureaucrats guess what i think dairy prices ports are terrible policy. Ok now what would happen would they go back to their offices and stop the payments to Dairy Farmers what we know what would have no is not the o. M. B. And Mick Mulvaney you know the acting chief of staff actually would engineer the move no to begin finding ways to sell it i would proceed with we know that because weve seized it right now in dallas when you find out they would begin the process of change the law right they would not on their own change the law and that is something thats whats so different to this right now you know i think that what you have now is if he did try to do it you would have the courts intervening the there is no deep state in the United States of america theres a bureaucracy that frustrates president sizes i was in the white house i know that every every other day. We wanted to get to yes and there was some reason to go to this point the reason is the law and it is not right to this point that adolfo raised it out so many you know government officials and bureaucrats preferring Hillary Clinton over donald trump you know every one john you are a spokesman for the d. N. C. And so you know many of these people who are your friends that are out there are they lying in wait to subvert the interest of the president say today are your friends people you know democrats in republican clothing hiding within the you know if the structure of the government how do you see this 1st of all i think the point is very well taken that there are people who are government professionals maybe theyre in it for the pension but theyre not theyre not in it for their political interests and they there is a code by which the thats not say theyre always perfect for short right but those we need those people we elect people to steer the ship of state but this got to be a ship and so those are the i dont know crewmen whatever. Dont go too far with that analogy so we need those folks and whats interesting to me about this moment in history is to see who is doing what so moving me is not. Hes part of the conquering army and so what we actually believe that he actually chief of staff so the head of the office of management and budget correct hes got a couple has he reports directly to donald trump and not to get too much out of the news of the day but it seems like he actually did hold up some payments possibly in violation of something called the empowerment control act of 178 or so he may have to take your Egg Department analogy actually just gone and did it but thats because hes not one of the sort of permanent restate we are we dont know what really impeachment right now is because a not insignificant number of members of congress think that he and the at the president s orders all of the violated the law so it will be i have to go and see all of those you know that read and read it i dont want to talk about it because they want to talk about impeachment you hear that heres the reality but i mean a lot of people have connected deep state to impeachment and i dont want to i will be this way as well i have been around whistleblowers ive been over on i. G. S. For years and my opinion the socalled whistle blower if you want to talk to them is part of a couple all in my opinion and the way it was no no no the way this this this complaint was written and the way the things you typically go to a hot line is suggest to me that a lawyer in a number of other people potentially the members of the democratic staff of the Intelligence Committee were involved in it thats a suspicion people have but im going to put that aside for a moment as were talking yesterday were talking about were talking a broader broader issue which is the socalled deep state this is a romantic notion my colleagues have that somehow people come in and they just follow the law no they dont they have an agenda they have a political point of view there is no coincidence that all of the bedroom communities in the washington d. C. Area are heavily democratic and those are the people that are by and large working in the government they have a point of view theyre quite informed and they have an agenda now you might say you claim that theyre just simply the people president are frustrated i think. Democratic president s are less frustrated when you ran a program reinventing government that i was involved in you had about 2000 people from the bureaucracy involved in it you were promoting the bureaucracy democrats promote the bureaucracy every congressman every senator in the metropolitan washington d. C. Area is an advocate for this federal bureaucracy so you brought up president reagan he said government is the problem not the solution president reagan was the one that said very clearly theres something bigger than the presidency the judiciary and the congress its the federal bureau of bureaucrats and they dont have your interest a little bit there is just it isnt just not really lets look at it this way for all these years of republican president s they always come in and complain about the bureaucracy the rockets are anybody being you know why the bureaucracy is going to fire people no because we have laws that mandate big programs what the republicans have failed to do is they cant cut the government they have not been able to cut back years of Social Security they cant cut back medicare they cant get rid of obamacare the republicans fail to let you all back us and you big time you know what we do if you have a Big Government you need a law let me let me say let me respond to that very quickly if we had 2 thirds of the senate if you had a majority in the house which weve never had a they veto proof or a i should say filibuster proof senate we will get those things done president you know youre going to get like i did wrong in president probably there was a photo of the president troubles advocate in the abolition of the office of right now manager a he was he was advocating for a reduction of salaries and reduction a person also side of defense the problem is in a divided government our system is divided that is extremely difficult to have so if you show us you have let me show that you know let me show that in 2 weeks why do you never have 2 thirds of the senate because when you run when your guys run on cutting Social Security or medicare you know running out of ok lets let me do this. Let me run a tweet here from the president for a minute. He says tonight we forcefully condemn the blatant corruption of the Democrat Party the Fake News Media and the rogue bureaucrats of the deep state the only message these radicals will understand its a crushing defeat on november 3rd 2020 john i would come to you for a minute your maybe more than a minute. Because it i think its passing conversation and i think you both feel what youre feeling very passionately question is this is a Campaign Slogan this is a campaign feeling this is you know one wonders adolfo if you were able to. Overcome what elaine was showing at what youve been able to do and kind of get this you had a more responsive bureaucracy of the time that was still public interested whether or not but it seems to me that donald trump john seems to want this issue absolutely so he needs it why does it resonate i mean he is hes getting a lot of his way in washington right now because congress isnt functioning and he owns the executive branch and as weve seen these willing to go even some liberties with it. But hes got a he still need to be he needs to be the underdog they need to be fighting against he needs to be fighting for the American People against some shadowy powers which is why we get this sort of deep state rhetoric even though we bet that the state. Is a deep state he is a combat veteran with a lame of harlem the standing state side to steady sorry it was out there he just didnt understand the state of the player minutes later hes not hes not any who can. Point is a conquering army when he heard that phone call he went sprinting for the counsels office to blow the whistle on like morrison who in sprinting to say that. So he he was he thats who that is that were talking about somebody who didnt know that he was a lifetime of Service People understand that as a point exactly im glad you said that people who have an agenda a different point of view but engender i disagree with the president s policies you know the one we always honestly dont see where our policy of these reason with these individuals are not. Charged with implementing their own policy and the break up in these hearings they cant use the word that they cannot say it is it was related lamenting the law and theyre not putting it in their own dollar i mean if you are what is going to be is the well it was a good example that im not. Going to become a gap between the law as written the law as purpose and the law i think frankly i think thats setting up the wrong question with all due respect to our host is this isnt about the law this is about policy and this is about individuals that are vested in their agencies vested in their Political Part of some points of view right that are seeking policy the best example i dont want to get into the impeachment is ukraine was about Foreign Policy the United States the they kept repeating the word irregular not a legal irregular irregular irregular President Trump can decide whatever policy he wants the chain saw is that the bureaucrats who think they know better and are going to do the right out the administration i found that usa id i founded in the government in 1990 s. Frustrate the intended policies of the minnesota actually i think youre going to let me ask you to play actually no better because its not a surprise to you but it was a no no there is a fuzzy line but there is a little there is law there is no actual i had broken in this case let me ask you what i did about it and i did their part i mean it literally are a little look at a difference of more in the policy of the law when its the law thats what they run every county office and so i go this route and it seems hard not to like it right you love hold a 2nd lets change the game here for a 2nd i want to discuss the afghanistan papers that have recently been peris into the pentagon papers and looking at this issue which i find fascinating because president obama and President Trump have both struggled mightily with afghanistan both of them wanted to have less of an american footprint the military bureaucracy the National Security class what might be termed as a deep state by some resisted president ial direction under obama and clearly under donald trump many times to do this. So in these National Security cases i dont i would ask you among your colleagues was that an ok case where there are other generals could you know essentially lie and deceive about performance feeding that into the president im absolutely its not ok and you think my instincts because i would be supporting generally speaking the pentagon the defense is more simpatico with conservative from the right look and points of view and admiration for a lot of these people that have been involved theyre wrong but theyre equally wrong which is when its e. P. A. And when theres a state department or anything else and that is the point where theyre either manipulating data or theyre frustrating directive from the president in the case to answer the question that is wrong that is and that is an example of the deep state to use that term whether its originally turkish or otherwise it is a coined the term steady standing at a steady steady state that is that is that is that is an example of what we need to correct our cross the government not just the john when you talk with the politicians that i know you know across the field running for office in the senate here for 2000 you know the democrats yes im interested in how this is resonating with them are they put in a position where theyre they feel they need to bond with the Civil Service bond with those servants of the state and that that that so in it by by essentially the political act of flamboyant criticisms that the president s been offering do they then fall into the trap of becoming a natural and say yes those people are ours i mean i guess if youre running for congress around maryland or virginia where those are your actual constituents then you certainly do i think there is a there is a broader thing though i work with a lot of excuse me 1st time candidates and so it is important to appreciate what the steadier standing state is doing for folks who come into washington and dont know where the restroom is right and i just know nothing about how washington works its really important to have those people there and so there is we need some form of whatever it is. I think yeah they do have some incentives that are always aligned with other folks so youve got to monitor them but you need them both so thats important to understand but it its a its a separate and necessary Political Class from the election i think all of us go to universities and we talk to a next generation of folks that are interested in Public Service and serving i think and i know you teach and john and it all for you do this i do as well and i find an anxiety among young people both parties on whether this is a smart career move whether going in and serving at this point becoming a young Foreign Service officer or joining a wimpy or something and b. And so when you look at the ranks of government were not hiring or maybe we cant theres a big jobs you know skill in the jobs gap in there so delphi me start with you if youre a young person youre going to advise young people im going to go today would you advise him to take this route given the bashing that so many people have taken in these roles i would i did it myself and i the reason i think its important i had a stereotype of what government was and it was actually confirmed and that is just what i described i was in a bureaucracy fighting people who were not taken the directives of the president and i serve you if i do usa id and before when i was going to i was on service i saw the directives of the 1st president bush being frustrated firsthand i just saw that firsthand so im sorry this is a good example of what i would say to people yes go into government there are many people in government quite dedicated and talented and they are necessary im not bashing the federal bureaucrat kratz or i was part of that theres a lot of that but to and i think youd recognize some had to suggest that there isnt a bias here and it is not a republican just as it is a bias so it is it is a democratic you know i understand rocker scientist but i want to ask you this question here when a cell phone always hold 100 dollars let me say hundreds of former u. S. And. The employees also signed a letter about present trouble said their distraught at the dangers inherent in the president s cavalier and quite possibly corrupt approach very Strong Language to making Foreign Policy an impulse in personal interest rather than in response to nationals critique inserts so i want to stop your book you talk about bias that i get and i understand when you see a letter like this is unusual this is not a normal. Does this not represent a red flag that someone ought to take a look or should all of these things for your perspective be i think something that i learned a long time ago in the white house was this when you get a letter like this that means were doing the right thing and the right thing means this were setting the right policies and we are doing is to quote the president as you have the swamp fighting back but your boss lets just. How youre going to get i dont know a lot of them so thats a big part of the i dont know how to have said something or dont want to lay the response john showed if you have the gulf but i know its not there or president has got theres no other president has it i mean ladder make the kind of reforms that now is what youre always this is what the president this is also this is were not the president right it is it is working for and it is the President Trumps agenda President Trump ran in 2016 to say he was going to what to the swamp drain it and this is part of the dredging proxies are not going to go partisan you lately can never really know we really need a road figure of a of a wonderful piece that i recommend people take a look you know google you link a mark and type state and youll find a fascinating article but you wrote in your in the end he said you know it here its to law is what differentiates the deep state from the steady state you see we should deep 6 the deep state but in this you you imply that the deep state is of those people that would violate law are there in the system so can you just give me just a short take on your concerns about the deep state which i know youd like to get away from that term but you recognize it in your article my concern about the deep state is that the president of the United States is undermining one of the very strengths of the american political system if you show me a country where the bureaucrats routinely ignore the rule of law i will show you one of those countries that the president so graciously talked about with talk about how much they do. In those countries in our country by and large right the bureaucrats no matter their personal biases the bureaucrats basically follow the rule of law and when they dont bury it in trying to avoid she avoids the key word here nobody has whatever is policy are they knowing how they found the sign and there are many in the bottom of that directive is the president of the United States be a donald trump or barack obama and titled no who said he was just a neo not know so little as he is not king holiday by any chance to change the law the president is just one policy the president you are just so you know yes i worry that were right now in this final debate here im going to ask each of you the president the president i dont care if i dont know that you know i got you into politics of my me to give you a hearty 2nd to issue your final piece on this how to just 30 seconds each of you how did you get the equilibrium between a president a white house wrestling with the bureaucracy to do what he or she wants and working constructively in that process versus demeaning them in that process i want to ask each of you that how do you get the balance right from your perspective well 1st of all because ive been around for a long time and i came in the Reagan Administration president reagan did a different time fundamentally what donald trump is doing president reagan fired the air traffic controllers. Right that was a big scandal president reagan called the bureau the bureaucrats a problem president reagan said the most frightening words in english were im from the government and im here to help so i dont think those were particularly flowery or supportive things and donald divine his director of o. M. B. Very clearly said it right these individuals are there to promote their parochial interests and their policies they convene right to talk about the law lets talk about whether theyre implementing President Trumps policy theyre frustrated right got it john so i think its true that the folks. When the government have their parochial interests or professional interest right there theyre having a paycheck and theyre having a professional situation and theyre interested in that stuff for sure and they do have policy preferences for sure but there is above that there is an allegiance we all swear and there is a long and thats the problem here its not that donald trump has different policy preferences we expected those from a republican president the problem is were running up against the law and were seeing not only democrat time. Right were seeing john bolton leave were seeing dan coats leave and were seeing all kinds of people who want no part of this a mess that is created when elaine may president s have policies absolutely correct they deserve to get their policies heard but their policies need to change law ok a present you dont we dont go from president ial policy to action if in fact theres laws in between and thats what you are asserting with the deep state youre asserting that a president should be should be a king so if i may youre saying not even a king youre saying an absolute monarchy but not an absolute monarchy absolutely not what we have never done in this country before we try to live as if she was worried about might all want to go with this you know very chatty conversation were out of time id like to thank you all for being with us elaine k. Mark director of the center for effective Public Management at the Brookings Institution democratic strategist john f. Injure and republican strategist Adolfo Franco thank you all this was a fantastic conversation i dont think weve solved it but were going to keep it together we have you all thank you very much and so what is the bottom line when President Donald Trump came to washington it had the feel of a hostile takeover more than a smooth transition of government his top adviser at the time steve bannon said that every day would be a battle for the deconstruction of the Administrative State and donald trump talks nonstop about the unholy alliance between democrats Mainstream Media and government bureaucrats all conspiring against him but in reality he is no different than any other politician who gain sympathy by painting himself as a man of the people fight. The powers that be but trump is the 1st to call his own government workers absolute scum and that will have consequences for years and thats the bottom line. 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And how will his in in doha with the top stories on aljazeera police in india have detained 100 soon defied a ban on protests against a new citizenship law internet and mobile services have been walks in parts of the capital new delhi the new law offers a path to citizenship for persecuted minorities from neighboring countries but x. Clothes muslims sell raman has more from new delhi the Security Services have a different strategy in different states overall whats actually been applied so far is that because section volatile for one full force the penal code which stops assembly of more than 4 people or stops the assembly of people in designated areas so using that law the police