The only Boris Johnson get the exit where does the date go through here follow the general election or dont you. What does it take to become an indian citizen the government says a proposed new law offers a home for those fleeing religious persecution but opponents say it excludes one group of muslims and undermines the countrys secular identity what will it mean for the constitution and indias future this is inside story. Hello and welcome see the program on how the more hed seen a proposal that would bring sweeping changes to indias 64 year old citizenship law is dividing politicians and activists and sponsoring charges of religious bigotry the Ruling Bharatiya Janata Party or b j p says it offers a safe harbor to people around the region fleeing persecution but opponents say the bill is anti muslim now it would allow Illegal Migrants from pakistan bangladesh and afghanistan to obtain Indian Nationality if they are members of religious minorities in the countries they flee that includes hindus buddhists Jains Christians sikhs and parsis but not muslims it follows earlier moves by in a range of movies government to strip millions of muslims in the state of us some of their Indian Nationality where critics say both measures undermine the secular principles of indias constitution the new citizenship law still needs to be approved by the upper house of indias parliaments but we begin with this reports from onshore vora in new delhi. Projects that mean organize in several parts of the northeast of india and also in the National Capital these people of new jersey again sitting in the militia citizenship Amendment Bill and. They call it discriminatory they did government says its only trying to protect religiously persecuted minorities who have come to india frequently is like im gonna start boxed on and bangladesh the political analysts question about madonnas intentions they are asking and that indeed is the governments intention then why not also by the green jersey but again analysts say that the Indian Government from now on is going to be deciding who is and is not an indian on the basis of religion and that goes against the burning idea of india a secular india and some of the b. Whether its will be deal more she say thats the Indian Institution starts with we the people not to be the indians not to be the muslims it is a sense anonymously community that they are now going to be dogmatic that they would have been but many are not including the impact on indian citizens x. Would say that this may take india even closer to being a hindu nation and further away from a secular state. Well lets bring in our guests from new delhi by skype or joins boy harsh mander director of the social justice Advocacy Organization center for equity studies in london womanly a visiting scholar at Queen Mary University of london and from sunny parts in india also by skype straighter and charlie a professor and dean at the gentle school of International Affairs gentlemen welcome see you all if i could start with you harsh mander what do you think about this bill which has passed the lower house of parliament in india do you feel its controversial. Its not just controversial its probably the most single most dangerous though for the survival of india as a secular democracy if it gets passed by parliament. And i need to explain that it is that he is its about belonging and its about who would have the right to have rights which is that thats what citizenship is ultimately about and trying to in guess freedom struggle. Mug and he led his struggle which was phoned in a home on the visit idea that india would belong to all those who would or would want to believe that this is a country and religion would be irrelevant to decide whether you indigenous with citizenship or not. This is the game much harder because the muslim league. Demanded in find the. Doubt the nation be on religion it was but its done. And then view was that this is 2 not one but 2 missions theres a muslim pakistan and the hindu india and and therefore there was a good vision a 1000000 people to date and in the western reds my own family was. Was one of the many who had to cross the borders. But mama got here and and the leadership of this country does all of that even on whatever may have happened in india really mean a country the jihad really belongs to all its villages when it was a people of different religious identities and repeat them because it is in the b. B. And you must remember that muslims who have stayed on in india had a choice between and it is but a son in secular india and the jews thinking that india and and 2 did what the median in doing is in a sense proving that. You know that they dont want the legion i was getting if they believe that india is fundamentally been mission or. Its delivering but from this bill does this bill strip nationality from indians who are missed them already or is there citizenship amend the bill does it doesnt it just apply to those who are seeking to apply for citizenship in india. No but well see this is going behind something called the National Registry of citizens which weve seen and slid in in a sense whats extraordinary about that process is that the speed as you move is that who are not a citizen and it is up to you to prove the documents that you are a citizen another in a country that is that you do little bit illiterate people you know people who are going to school we dont have a boat certification. Process is people dont even move their dates of birth you have to produce documents ensure right from your ancestors that your ancestors who citizens of this country and you are linked to them and this is goes in whole is suffering and you know its almost got to heres what people have a good tool in in a sense ok so what what were basically seeing is that if then theyll be a nationalist of citizens across india not the people of any other than it is the identity even if they are undocumented have nothing to worry and this is typically because it will be presumed that you are if you g. s and persecuted and therefore you get citizenship it is blue muslims who if they are not able to produce these documents it is quite likely. Then be. You know i have no Citizenship Rights ok let me put those points to you charlie weve heard there that this at this citizenship amendment is dangerous and harsh mander. Words and hes also bringing in that the controversy which is surprising saying this that this registry at the same time what was your assessment of this bill that has been introduced and how do you respond to those allegations that its dangerous. Well its completely unfounded its based on an ideological turn of our Prime Minister mr modi and his nationalistic vision for the country and to project india as. A savior of minorities across south asia what this bill purports to do is to try and correct a historical injustice thats been done to a lot of minority groups in these neighboring countries like pakistan bangladesh and afghanistan just look at the statistics in those were 23 percent of pakistan after independence in 147. 00 now theyre less than 2 percent of the population lot of them have been facing you know forcible conversions assassinations and ethnic cleansing and theyre looking for india to give them or if you are going to shelter sikhs in pakistan they used to be 40000 of them in 2002 down to just 8000 today hindus in bangladesh another country to our east and on 14 percent of the time of independence in 171. 00 now down to 9 percent and willing hindus and sikhs in afghanistan the 3rd neighbor which is the purpose of this bill 700000 in the 1970 s. Now hindus and 6 are less than 7000 so if you look at the situation there are a lot of jihadists of extremist groups you know one neighborhood that are engaging in ethnic cleansing and genocide of campaigns against my not nice and all these countries that the. Islam is a straight religion and there is no basis of persecution of muslims in the country on the basis of religion a lot are sick you know there may be other and india does host muslim refugees for the fact you know this is often ignored by the critics like mr munder there are more than 40000 ruhi Indian Muslim refugees what currently in india who fled ethnic cleansing in myanmar we are nearly 20000 Afghan Muslim refugees were been here doing since the war us started in the ninetys ok and we continue to share them or give them a liberal in order few would. So india i think what we are trying to do through the citizenship Amendment Bill used to you know provide like a white house out of beacon of hope for those who are in very very dire circumstances a lot of us countries if i were the region is not persecuting minorities then there are fundamentalists you have these groups that are doing it well and i dont know they are its interesting that you bring up the points about the branches because the brain just would not be able to apply for citizenship under this bill no they dont get citizenship but theyre not being deported either there are more than 1000 i am but why would they not get success and ship if this is about. The same to be at cross purposes here either its providing safe haven to persecute people or its a chris correcting a historical injustice and its not giving them citizenship because this is a fresh exodus that has happened only in the last 10 years theres a hope for them to return but event it comes to the afghans they have been living in india for a long time theyre muslims theyre well integrated there is no issue of dog so and for that matter i want to clarify one more point the population of muslims as a whole in india is 200000000. 00 it draws from 90 percent to 49 percent of the time of independence 40 percent to date that driving unlike in the neighboring countries where non muslims are under serious threat of extinction muslims in india are thriving 90 percent of Indian Muslims lorded for mr moore these party in the general elections that just happened a few months ago so i think a lot of this problem ghana needs to be an act and needs to be countered because this is not based on statistical an objective reality on the grass where muslims are thriving and doing well in this country because india is the only place where the entire south asia people who are facing persecution and fear and other kinds of discrimination how hook ok let me put those points to ruin and leave then everyone would you respond to this you do you view this this bill as controversial or do you see this as correcting a historical injustice as we heard from measure until you. Well its obviously controversial i mean what whats been proposed is a change to legislation that will provide a citizenship so long as youre not muslim and thats whats going to make it controversial its a step away from indias founding secular principles and its deeply concerning because of how specific it is it doesnt include. It doesnt include migrants from me and mum india shares a 1600 kilometer long land border with me and mum. Those been some talk already about genocide in the region in fact tomorrow me and mars leader aung san suu chain will front the International Court of justice to defend me and maher against accusations of genocide against the wrecking of Muslim Minority but the rethink of Muslim Minority who are persecuted in me and i would find absolutely no solace in india because of this legislation and in fact indias government has made efforts to deport those wrecking who are living in india i think that the legislation is concerning too because of the way it will affect muslims feeling about how they should engage and tanny gauge with the politics of india it sends a strong signal that muslims in the future might well find their rights further restricted and the next step will surely be a nationwide register of citizens very similar to what happened in assam and the Victim Groups there were of course the muslim or the the muslims ok in syria im sure you dont appear to agree with that and i am just a couple of things there are more than 20000000 illegal bangladeshi immigrants who have seeped through the borders were on the east of the country and have amalgamated into real use. States of eastern india and its a very controversial aspect locals feel outnumbered but its being encouraged by some of the left leaning parties in that region because they think that the by naturalizing these illegal aliens they can you know get their banks to do in the name of minority protection i think this is a big security challenge the National Security angle also needs to be understood you see there are groups like harkat ul jihad islamic would be just dreaded you know internationally proscribed terrorist organizations they recruit from some of these Illegal Migrants so we have a right if the sovereign state has a right to distinguish between legitimate refugees who are facing fear of persecution we simply dont get we seem to be mixing a lot of things up together mixing up muslims with terrorism with a legitimate and illegitimate refugee it cant be all things to its all men here either states accept say that minorities are persecuted accept all minorities are 8 its difficult to just cherry pick these missile and refugees arent welcome but they were Christian Refugees are and is thats not where the problem lies straight are actually a. Lot of muslims do not face persecution in any of these neighboring countries by virtue of their religion what they fail a persecution in the end mark so its an object to fact based on Group Identity which raises sports occlusion from state or from radical jihadist groups in those countries are only now not trying to come in. What i mean muslims most certainly face persecution in myanmar a major neighbor of india 1600 kilometer long land border with india and tomorrow being mostly there will be at the International Court of justice because of that persecution i think were getting away from whats actually happening here which is that this is a piece of legislation that on the one hand claims or is claimed to provide solace and protection for people who are persecuted but on the other hand it simply doesnt do that and thats what i think worries so many people about this legislation what the what its proponents say it does is not what the legislation in fact dots ok let me bring in harsh mander here because you also say it wanted to jump in on that point. To do you think this bill is for its because its looking at things in a religious context or are there are other deeper problems with it. In that you know firstly theres some. Move for schools in in mr sharons games. The Indian Government has being singing back to you and yes. Some of us have been part of petitions in the Supreme Court trying to say that that you cannot same people back. Because they is indian if they did situations its not that hes 40000. 00. Can do need be supported in any as if you ds in this country thats absolutely false secondly this would discourse of 20000000 you know the different figures under the shes the you know small this country is and that under the muslim is equal to get it this is equal to a Security Threat these these are all danes it is. Trains of of of of or of and occasions to meet a woman is does actually use the word oh my god and incidentally frightening would because it gives us he talks about infiltrators as domains will have to be crushed and that brings back you know defying memories or for a wonderful instance when when you use that kind of discourse you know after a process it was completely meted against. The minorities in assam how many people finally emerged even you know in the process was was. You know a small spending mistake was enough with the dictation and you havent had a big meeting that is into the new lingo to me today needing to english and then this scenes in spinning into documents and it and youre treated as a foreigner in your sent to a Detention Center out of after after that in diop process you had just 9 what less than 2000000 people who are. Unable to prove the documents and often loony 400000 or so muslim so. This would discourse abode you know hordes of muslim immigrants plugging into india and being recruited by did as donations is part of that a binge it is a dent to divide india only just goals india has seen but isnt it seems youre. Seeing what it leads to a committee with this kind of politics and the politics of the ruling party is an extremely dangerous one because indias problems economies known a bad shape there is as there was unemployment ok farmers and this is just it is not that muslims are getting in trouble from Different Countries and. The jobs and creating securities that well let me put that to you straight and charlie at that was the motivation behind this bill what is the government hoping to achieve by introducing this bill isnt going to address the fundamental underlying problems in the country whats the motivation behind excluding muslims as a group from this citizenship legislation well 1st of all how as i said it is to expand our softball in the region as a refuge for those who are desperately needing you know protection but only desperately need protection secondly the motivation i said is National Security and a number of these i dont again harsh mander is exaggerating i didnt say that on the 20000000 out into terrorism i did not he put all the bangladeshi it immigrants are terrorists i said that some of them have joined radical jihadist groups its a fact that must be acknowledged i mean why should we hide behind our Political Correctness when it comes to National Security and thirdly i think india is actually proclaiming that it is an open space i mean look at the number of refugee communities we host be host combatants we have 3 lung cancer we have or he just. We have im dance we have some. From from the met its mic majority of myanmar what was good to do in the democracy struggle and so many others you know and you look at the. Sense of hope that there have been to reach india and the remaining india india is in me is the safe harbor you know and that is the message yes and i think enhances your strength as our Regional Power it gives us you know people across these countries were looking at bleak features to their very existence what is harsh mander not talking about the minorities in pakistan bangladesh and afghanistan our men are facing genocide the situation but i cannot focus in on the bed with anybody that doesnt come under the Indian Governments jurisdiction let me tell you where in the dying minutes of this debate as well it is our at sponsibility in this region to maintain the safety and security of people who are not we want peace and a brotherhood in this neighborhood and thats not happening because this consistent genocide mindset an ethnic cleansing happening of minorities in this country let me let so you and only the road in the were hearing from mr charlie that the motivation behind this bill is increasing soft power part of it is to increase soft power and to protect minorities would you agree that thats likely to have thats not what. It was thats not what the bill will do i mean i think the motivation for the bill is is more likely to be political i mean this will play well with hindu nationalist voters i mean that theres no question about that they they will feel that this is legislation that speaks to them and thats a handy distraction from the state of indias economy and that works for the ruling be chippy it worked for a renter modi during the last the last National Election he he portrayed himself as a watchman as someone who could be trusted on National Security and that minimized the focus on the economy and i think whats at the core of this is domestic politics within india and its an opportunity to distract from the state of the economy ok we only have a minute left so if you could answer in one sentence please harsh mander what do you think if this bill passes what do you think this the the consequences of it be for indias secular nature indeed as a signal getting to be completely broken because 200000000 people. Have to. Get going to going to that had a little bit have to prove that the indian citizens and this of documents that they will find it very hard to produce and i know this much been it a muslim people across india that today. I would lose people this in we dont have any documents or what happened was it is getting a sense or you know its not just 2nd class citizenship but. The digital to citizenship and being locked up in Detention Centers which are being set up or does the ok did it franks wrist ok shoot im truly quickly a few words what do you think this will say arent for the secular nature of the country and its constitution. There are lights light and then there are statistics ive given you the facts they are actually unchallengeable and the facts on the ground remain that india is the only democracy in the only secular country in this region that is able to absorb these people with and give them a life of dignity this is a major step forward for indias Foreign Policy and softball in the region and i believe that indias constitutional democracy is safe under marriage from all in fact muslims are actually hand you know moving in step with the current ruling partys agenda and most of them appreciated that women muslim women were liberated to triple to lock build recently their watered for mr moore the and i think he is filling their hopes and aspirations with Greater Vision ok and a final sentence roland run in the where to go from here. Nowhere good i dont think this will be positive for india as a whole and it certainly wont be positive for indias Muslim Minority ok and im afraid gentlemen we are out of time this discussion will of course continue in the days and weeks to come but for now i would like to that oh my guess harsh mander warningly and sriram a charlie a thank you to you for watching at home you can see the program again any time by visiting the website al jazeera dot com and to continue the discussion head to social media our Facebook Page is face meant to come forward slash a. J. Inside story or join the conversation on twitter our handle is at a. J. Inside story but it mr directly at our marketing tonight for me and the whole team here in doha its by and i. Thank you very much the Prime Minister they are. Pushing you to deliberate on the 31st of october and making this country the greatest place all over britain its departure is delayed but for how long followed the drama of bricks it on aljazeera. 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