Losers in cambodia. On aljazeera. The president of france says that nato is brain dead and that terrorism is now the enemy of the not russia and the neo mccall wants his criticism to be a wakeup call for the military alliance so what does it mean for nato a future an organization the us president also once described as obsolete this is inside story. I welcome to the program im Adrian Finnegan after world war 2 and facing a rising threat from the soviet union a group of european and north american countries banded together and signed up to the north atlantic treaty they believed a collective defense was the best way to ensure future peace in the is that followed the organizations membership and goals expanded there are now 29 countries committed to protecting the security if they chose members on the alliances 70th anniversary some a questioning its effectiveness just weeks after calling nato brain dead frances president to moneygall mccraw but the organizations boss for talks in paris and as Erasmus National butler reports from the french capital. It was a longer handshake than usual for the french president it seemed to be a sign that emanuel was in a conciliatory mood as he greeted nato secretary general at the least say only a few weeks after he described the military alliance as brain dead but if you install timberg had hoped for an apology or a retraction he didnt get one as mike ross stood by his claim that nato lacked direction because some of the questions i ask are open questions that we have not resolved peace in europe. Treaty the relationship with russia the subject was talking who is the enemy so injuries or decision lets not negotiate cost sharing a burden sharing maybe we needed a wake up call if you permit english expressions stoltenberg said nato members often had different opinions but that didnt mean the alliance has no future so the policy is that while questions are d being asked about the strength of the transatlantic north america and europe i dream or together than we have done for decades its clear that my comment that nato is brain dead didnt go down well with stoltenberg pretty certainly shaken up the alliance and focused minds on coming up with some new ideas germanys foreign minister has suggested that a group of experts from outside nato could be created to review the organization some analysts say such a move would be constructive it was war in ukraine theres a huge problem in middle east their war in syria iraq or iran is behaving differently so this is something very useful and its much better to discuss the problem together with experts inside the alliance than than criticizing the alliance and. Your party the credibility of the alliance. Next week nato leaders meet in london for a special summit to markets creation 70 years ago during the cold winning it was a time when members agreed on their aims and who was the enemy today its leaders are politically poll. The security challenges have changed nato might not be at deaths door yet but most members now expose concedes that for it to survive successfully it needs a fresh approach to such about law ill just sirrah paris meanwhile france and fellow member turkey a locked in a war of words ahead of next weeks nato summit emanuel macross says that ankara put nato has mission at risk with its recent military operation in Northern Syria but turkeys president says that mccraw doesnt understand the situation just pick the security didnt he i respect the security interests of a turkish fellow who has suffered many terrorist attacks on its soil but one cannot on one hand say that we are allies with respect to this demand else all the dirty and on the other hand put itself in the place of a military offensive done as a fait accompli which endangered the action of the coalition against Islamic State which nato is a part of claiming commitment to collective security is not enough you must show a Real Alliance is about actions and decisions not words so i wish to have a real discussion between allies and our concrete engagements in the fight against terrorism in the hell as in the levant region the military intervention carried out by turkey in northeast syria has brought up real questions which must be tackled. All right lets bring in our guests for todays discussion joining us now from paris john locke law and International Law consultant and professor at the University Institute of pius via skype from santander for reese. Chief Strategy Officer at rasmussen global and former director of policy planning at nato and from ankara were joined by use of all about a security analyst and retired colonel gentlemen welcome to you or john lets start with you did nato need a wake up call as maclaurin writes when he says that the organization is brain dead. Yes hes absolutely right and did he return to the theme because the braindead remark was made 10 days or 2 weeks ago and he returned to the theme only only recently. And said that he had he was very pleased to have raised this issue and to put it on the table and he asked the question which really is the ultimate question and its an ultimate question because a nato doesnt have the answer the question is whos the enemy michael said whos the enemy is it russia is it peace in europe is it turkey who is the enemy and because it nato is unable to answer that question it is like a bad scene from earth the theater of the absurd its 6 characters or 29 characters in search of an author theyre people whove lost the plot they need a new plot they want to plot because they want to justify their existence but they dont have one military alliance only makes sense if you know who you are allied against a nato doesnt faeries enemy is the kurds polands enemy is russia and the United States and europe have a have different views on who is the enemy. In the south and does nato have a future can europe forge ahead on its own in terms of security without the u. S. And turkey well let me 1st strongly disagree jonathan i guess were going to debate saw for the sake of it and the needle guards have clarity about what theres one of the biggest red lines for spacey and if you just look at the past few years you know which power is invited a european country like ukraine which power has placed new type of resized right at the heart of europe straight to europe in general terms which power has been looked at slides and military members that are against International Norms and rules that. Russia so in that sense i mean media is basically on twitter threat come from and it doesnt actually never denied at least when there was a needle that the middle east made a terrorism and say states pulls a reality threat but the reality is actually trance among some countries has always blocked nato plane more active both political but also over asian abroad in the middle east so i think the matter is right its always have a future wait or call but i think we also have to look at our own little bit each and every year france has many considerations when it comes to its traditional position it needs look at john i know you want to come back on that ill let you let you do so in just a moment but lets bring in yourself 1st of all from ankara. Turkey still committed to nato or is it drifting away from the alliance and the west i mean what sort of an Alliance Partner is it whatever it takes Strategic Decisions without consulting its allies and buys russian surface to air missiles ok to tell the truth we can define after the call for the threat is very easily in the name of security understanding the new threat is terrorism the new threat is the me gratian flow and the refugees the new threat is the russian aggression in italian disasters and all saw the failed states especially in the middle east and then you take a look at the turkeys position it is very clear that turkey is fighting it all kind of terrorism inside the middle east on the ground which paul against and not for allies more than 3000 member sort of that and all saw all of this sharing information about the terrorist activities inside the middle east and you know very well that including french they do not even accept their citizens who fought in the name of their middle east that mr trump has on the line for many times that European Countries including france should take the risk. Possibility and should accept their students back to their country and put them on trial saw for destry isnt against fighting against terrorism turkey is committing what he has promised so far be to clear numbers that he can observe the other issue is that me gratian and the refugee crisis is one of the most important issue that we should act together with the nato and let me remind you that turkey is hosting almost 4000000 syrians inside to discomfit and more than 1500000. 00 refugees who migrate to turkey from and other parts of the world including africa including afghanistan and pakistan and turkey offer sure sign the re admission agreement be to European Union so no one can blame turkey in order to not cooperate against the refuges because the numbers that i am providing is very clear to everyone ok other issue is that the russian aggression russian aggression it is very important i should talk about this the russian aggression is also very important turkey clearly supports the Ukrainian Government against russia and also clearly stated that turkey is a games all kind of occupation inside cream off we shall the declared is to russia and to the ukraine for this isnt by knowing the last facts that we cannot put turkey to any other side while we are not even excepting one refugee and we are not putting our own steers and so forth in name of fashion and put them on trial for this isnt lets consider it the reality is youre a want to give john a say which i will do just a moment as you talk about russian aggression why then to turkey by this russian surface to air Missile System very very nice question very nice question turkey has already requested from the United States in order to buy pats Missile System because turkey has a soft spot of air Defense Systems but including United States. The European Union countries not all of them provided to sell turkey a defiance messiah system and mr trump in did you just pass on at the meeting clear to state that that turkey requested to buy dead the pats system but they didnt provide so they want day event and bought the s 400. 00 systems in order to. In order to close the gap in the air Defense System and focus clearly face to the french and italy all saw ok are ready to cooperate to produce ara to buy the french and american Missile Systems if they provide it to turkey or it to see you shaking your head a lot that should nato be helping turkey in its fight against what it sees as terrorists in Northern Syria but the others within nato regard as allies i mean how does nato square that circle. Well turkey has never asked for nato to help in syria but i think the answer youve just heard makes it absolutely clear that turkey does not regard russia as an enemy its not conceivable to buy ed Defense Systems from someone whom you regard as an enemy turkey may condemn what it calls in my view wrongly russia russian aggression in ukraine but the facts of diplomacy are that turkey and russia Work Together on a number of issues including as it happens in syria so its just not true to say that russia is an enemy of turkey its not true Families Party to say that russia is considered an enemy by fronts president machen received president putin at the falls are doing a song. For the g. 7 summit and he said im sorry i didnt interrupt you could you let me finish and he said that he wanted to build together with russia. Architecture of confidence in order to improve European Security and to solve other world crises thats not the language that you use when youre addressing an enemy you dont build an architecture of confidence with your enemy so things have moved on since whatever nato communique youre referring to and by the way on the 9th of december theres going to be a normandy format meeting between france germany ukraine and russia in which theyre going to try and sort out the ukraine again thats not the language that you use with an enemy so all this talk about russian aggression and russia being the enemy does not correspond to the political realities that have unfolded in recent weeks and if you try to pretend otherwise there nobody is going to believe you. Come back on that. Well i think a lot of. Quick observation things that just start 1st and not use the word enemy because effete it characterize an actor and it puts kind of an absolute tag on it im talking about the behavior and thats why i talked about the threats and the threats of the past year is clearly far Nuclear Power but russia that is actually flexing its muscles and its neighbor who and putting pressure including on the Nato Alliance so i never say that paris considers russia as an enemy i just say that nato of which france is a member has clearly stated over the past 5 years plus that the biggest threats facing europe today and the Alliance East prussia has behavior that is highly disruptive and basically lend grabbing behavior which i guess we can all agree is not acceptable thats a 1st vagueness of im thing is i think to talk about. The role of the format as a proof that russia is the friend of europe is if im not far fetched that nobody for my meeting use an important one its the 1st once in 3 years finally there is a meter dido up on how to sort of the conflict in speeches keep 13000 ukrainians over the past 5 years but that doesnt mean its going to be so many times so this is a very populated situation and russia is not showing any sign of week during its military personnel in Eastern Ukraine or with during its heavy weapons so i think its a beat the weak conclusion to say that now we dont good and russia is ease back into the fold of those who have will or acceptable or legal behavior ok at and on the question of whether nato should be in the business of fighting terrorism for braces as president maduro not as a peer to indicate he wants. Yeah absolutely i think i was one of those who shave for nato to play a more active role in the broader middle east and north africa for the simple reason that this is our neighborhood and this is now since the arab spring a very fragmented and a very unstable never who and you cannot just ignore it better i can tell you that clearly many people agree with that but france among the few others think that it needs or at least was finucane until president michel made the statement that nato does not have or learning the wider middle east and north africa however here is a key question and this is really for the leaders to discuss next week and not about what did it called terrorism because what you hear from him and go on when he talks about terrorism is a slightly different type of terrorism and type of actors when the french president talks about so i think this is where leaders need to use me but at least you say what do we think is me or do you just right behind that terrorism because if not its a too broad category and everybody will give different definition and well never agree on what to do exactly ok yes of turkeys foreign minister this week called president mccrone a sponsor of terrorism after the french president held talks in paris with the f. T. S. D. F. Spokesperson right now theres a void in europe he said meconis trying to be its leader but leadership comes naturally oh whats turkeys problem with france ok. In the visit to United States the turkish president already presented some cia documents that the if they have Spokes Person and the terrorist muslim or bunny is cia records that he has committed many pair at tax inside 30 not from the perspective of turkey but from the perspective and it records off the cia for dismissal except think those guys incite the fans that. The palace cannot be acceptable turkey always extended it is condolences to Prime Minister level than the Charlie Hebdo attack has been acute and the Prime Minister of the world all the buzz on the streets of fans that is set to extend the congo since of the turkey so we should be very clear that if there is a very bad thing for us we should understand that it is also bad for the friends from this perspective if you do not provide a comprehensive approach fighting against terrorism be able now or be able to fight against terrorism my contra puppet little bit ago set that turkey is not collaborating with nato and the European Union countries especially the fight against terrorism inside syria that is totally not correct because i am giving the numbers 34 against and lost more than 150 soldiers and not realize 3000 bash members and you still count me that turkey is not collaborating with difference let me tell and i would like to remind also the headquarter of the on to dash correlation is inside turkey and turkey is pro i think huge support to the arm today ok let me also remind that my friend my friend john in parties is getting every nice sleep because of the turkish radar system monitoring inside russia 24 hours in a day so we should understand that turkey is together with the nato hitting all it is responsible it is so the should understand the problem from this perspective to respond to that briefly if you will and then this for the u. S. And turkey exactly the easiest of nato members to deal with politically at least to what extent is is president a crime now making france another or could ally. What it was what is what exactly does he want. Well thats thats how i started off the discussion he wants clarity he wants political clarity about what what nato is trying to do thats why i used the word enemy. The reason why i used it is that president marcos said who is the enemy that the whole problem with nato and weve just heard from use of this huge list of things that nato is supposed to do its supposed to help with the refugee crisis is supposed to help with terrorism its supposed to help with ukraine its supposed to help with syria russia goodness knows what else failed states thats not how military alliances work thats not what nato was created to do nato had one function when it was created and that was to protect western europe from soviet threat now if were saying its got 5 or 6 or 10 different functions including fighting things that we dont even agree on the definition of like terrorism then that means it does not know what it is doing and it clearly does not know what it is doing because im sorry the kurds with the allies of france and other western European Countries and they are the enemies of turkey and in that situation you cannot have a military alliance where one persons friend is another persons enemy that just the iron rule of politics for greece turkey signaled that at the summit next week its going to block formal approval of this military plan to defend poland lithuania estonia and latvia in the event of a russian attack given all that weve just heard what are the prospects for this 70th anniversary meeting in london and is going to knuckle down and turn their attention to what they do is actually for or is it going to descend into acrimony. Well i hope theyre going to have a frank and hopefully deep discussion about what exactly they want the alliance to do better i think somewhat to that and say i hear what you dont forget the alliance has just as some of its members and i think the clarity that mcelroy seeking is not a priority coming from nato is the clarity coming from france from turkey from the United States and even from germany in terms of defense spending and investment so i think opposition is not about nato the institution is actually very Pretty Healthy and been doing quite depressing things over the last 5 years in terms of transformation the rio our problem is that the political level weve to keep members we just talked about so i think you know what theyre going to hope for is for once leaders are going to be speaking bonsa side theyre going to google nice consensus language of communicate and theyre going to really try to figure out what exactly do we arent willing to commit to and i dont think its not a black and white source is not a bug either hotshot or terrorists i think it can be both and it has to be both because it was not about just one threat nato was about ensuring the quality of security of 40 years of have about a minute left on the program here how do you see next weeks meeting go do you see turkey remaining part of this Nato Alliance in the long term. Yes of course i am telling you that the new security challenges and the new security challenges speech europeans facing can be fault on the beat to help and beat their assistance off the turkey and also lost. To john turkey is not the enemy off the cards on course are not the enemy of the turkish people let me remind you that turkey is hosting more than early hominid of that 50000 people from the syria and you have no idea whats going on inside the field for this is that you cannot label turkey is the enemy off the Kurdish People drink 99 to one in the bank and say hey look i am still levels also 30 you said carts saw this not interrupt me i didnt interrupt you so labeling turkey is the enemy off the charts is not correct because in turkey there are more than 10000000 People Living and let me say that today the cutest on a Regional Government for a minister off if they are spies in perky and he clearly states that the white p. J. On the k. K. K. Is the common enemy of the course and talks in this than a gentleman out of time im afraid many thanks indeed for being with us today John Laughlin for a sporting. Use of about a. Thank you as always for watching dont forget you can see this program any time just by going to the website aljazeera dot com for further discussion both joined us at our Facebook Page at facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story and you can join the conversation on twitter handle at inside story from be adrian for the good of the whole team here in doha thanks for watching ill see you again i think. I. Just said on aljazeera as this year comes to an end we look ahead to 2020 and the stories that may shape the year people in power investigates the shocking treatment of disabled people in Eastern Europe to carry out an exclusive look at the Worlds Largest conference on h. I. V. In rwanda will be efforts achieve an aids free africa a true part series charging chinas rise of the 21st century superpower. 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