Know. There was a move to gather them and i understood generally directly and informally that they have been gathered thats the extent of my knowledge is not my area of responsibility yes but did they pass them on to you or did they pass them on to. The administration and somehow the only documents i receive sir were those within the parameters i described what i requested which was those given were the documents that either i produced or that were sent to me relevant to the matters were discussing today thank you all back to the chairman. Its mystifying thank you to both of our witnesses for your Service Today ms cooper i want to start with you you spoke eloquently of the threat of russia when it illegally and next crimea how thats a threat not only to ukraine but its also a threat to europe in the United States a National Security challenge and i said on the House Armed Services committee we know that the most important support for ukraine in terms of lethal defensive aid is in the forms of javelins would you agree with that yes maam and would should ministration where those javelins made available to ukraine this administration the trump of ministration and not the Obama Administration that is correct both of you have you ever spoken with the president about ukraine aid you know i have no. Undersecretary hale you testified that you had no direct knowledge of any nefarious motivations to withhold aid to ukraine correct correct and to your knowledge you testified that there were no Strings Attached to the aid correct thats page 104 of your deposition no such knowledge and more specifically you testified that you had no knowledge of ukraine aid being held up for investigations is that correct. During the temporary hold of Security Assistance this was until ambassador taylor sent to the cable you had never even heard the words or bidin correct. Well in the context of what were discussing rick great you testified that on page 96 and ultimately as we know the aid was released to ukraine correct yes i read that now lets talk about the context broadly of this hold you testified that its not just ukraine that there were in fact other countries who Security Assistance was on hold quote the aid package to lebanon was also being held in the same fashion correct correct and foreign aid was held from norther tribal countries just past midnight g. M. T. Here on aljazeera 7 pm in washington d. C. On come on santa maria new sessions all of the hearings on the impeachment inquiry of the u. S. President currently underway weve been listening to. The Deputy Assistant secretary of defense for cooper and also this man on screen here david hale whos the undersecretary for Political Affairs being questioned over what they knew about the events that led up to the withholding of us move troops to ukraine earlier in the year earlier in the day we also had the u. S. Ambassador to the European Union golden sawmill and giving probably the most anticipated testimony so far in these 4 days of public hearings someone described broad involvement at the upper levels of the trumpet administration in a Pressure Campaign against ukraine while someone testified that everyone is aware of those efforts the white house has since said his testimony quote completely exonerates the president so that was a little bit earlier. And this is whats going on now as you say the questioning of those 2. Officials there as i said its david hale the undersecretary for Political Affairs and laura cooper Deputy Assistant secretary of defense alan fischer in washington d. C. To bring us up to date allan this testimony which weve been watching just now its a lot more. Technical and a bit more dry i would say but what have you taken from and now. 2 really important things 1st of all in his Opening Statement devin nunes who is the leading republican on this Committee Said it was time to bring an end to the whole bring an end to this hearing said they should really just haltered know and they wanted to speak to the whistleblower at some point now theyre not going to reveal who the whistleblower is that seems to annoy the republicans its important to remember that this whole impeachment inquiry started we are told because they were so blower came forward d and said hed heard from the number of people about this phone call where donald trump offered the ukrainian president a quid pro quo so why is that important because we had just in the last couple of hours d gordon and when asked was there a quid pro quo he said yes there are wars well come back to go and so on one minute laura cooper is important as well because she said as she was about to give evidence that she was elected to staff that the ukrainians had been in touch around july the 25th the date of the phone call between the u. S. President and his ukrainian counterpart and the ukrainians were asking why the aid had been held up no that is a lot sooner than a lot of test a new affair but laura cooper says thats when she 1st knew that the ukrainians were asking questions about this lets go to gordon song why is he important big big impeachment. Testimony 1st of all because he said there was a quid pro quo secondly because he said all the senior figures here reported to the president and he named mike pence the Vice President secretary of state might pompey or might move in the who is the chief of staff every day interaction with the president and also rick perry who at that point was the Energy Secretary that sim porton because he is saying they all knew there was a quid pro quo they all knew that Rudy Giuliani was speaking to the ukrainians with the intention of setting up an inquiry into joe biden interestingly enough in the last couple of hours weve heard from mike penn. His office and also from sector was office saying that gordon saw in dylans testimony was wrong thing to remember here those statements are put out to the media Gordon Sunderland was actually under oath when he gave his testimony so that is very important Gordon Sundin wouldnt go as far as to say donald trump was the man behind all this but he did say look we were walking in the direction of the president and if there was an investigation into the bidens he was asked well who would benefit from that and he answered of course while the president would answer so what weve got here in washington d. C. Is more playing out of both sides putting forward their arguments but politics in washington d. C. Just now is really tribal so you have this very important evidence from Gordon Sunderland the democrats think it should be important and they probably moved a lot closer to impeachment judy his testimony they have been at any point in this process where republicans still believe the president did nothing wrong and there is nothing that Gordon Sunland anyone else is going to say that at the moment will change that view thank you for that update alan fischer in washington d. C. So lets talk more about golden sun and the moment everyone is waiting for was when he said it was quite abundantly clear as alan was saying that President Trump was involved in a quid pro quo early up someone said the president s lawyer Rudy Giuliani asked for investigations on behalf of the president was there a quid pro quo as i testified previously with regard to the requested white house call and the white house meeting the answer is yes mr giuliani conveyed to secretary perry ambassador volker and others that President Trump wanted a Public Statement from president selenski committing to investigations of reese and the 2016 election. Mr giuliani expressed those requests directly to the ukrainians and mr giuliani also expressed those requests directly to us we all understood that these prerequisites for the white house call and the right white house meeting reflected President Trumps desires and requirements are pleased to welcome brenda one apple 20 shes in new york for us the all for of the book the impeach is the trial of Andrew Johnson and the dream of a just nation brand he said he said was there a quid pro quo yes well he might have said yes is that the big bombshell that the democrats were looking for which now says yes donald trump well almost 100 percent of the page while you know you cant guarantee anything these days and you certainly cant guarantee that donald trump will be impeached although it seems the democrats already have the votes the question now is to get Public Opinion on their side and maybe to peel away a few of the republicans if the senate goes to the senate but yeah i think it was a very important moment because there was some talk that gordon sunline would actually take the 5th amendment which is to say he wouldnt testify at all because it might incriminate him but his lawyers were obviously very savvy in what they were able to do was to get him not to recall many things but also to be as clear as possible so he wouldnt perjure himself and what he did do very successfully you might say is he puts trump pedants giuliani pompei he kind of effectively put them all in the same room didnt he and said this was this wasnt in a regular thing that was going on it was the top guys that were doing it. Right so yeah he he put them all in the same boat he tarred them all with the same brush the person who is presumably directing or driving that bow was donald trump but he could only say that he presumed donald trump was behind everything that he didnt have you know that he couldnt recollect actual information that would tie that up nicely so one possibility is that everyone will stay close to trump and say that it was actually giuliani who was on the Rogue Mission but Gordon Siloam went in a different direction he said everybody was involved everybody was implicated in withholding that aid from ukraine what do you think of donald trump and the republicans reaction to this obviously their job is to spin it in a way that is more positive for them but donald trump stood there on the lawn of the white house saying i wanted nothing i wanted nothing and this basically everything exonerates me here i mean its you start to wonder are the democrats and republicans actually watching the same thing. Well hell still say that there was that call where hes said to have said i want nothing just do the right thing and presumably do the right thing is code for do it ive asked to you know make sure that president selenski launches an investigation but whats interesting is the way the republicans circle around donald trump by bringing up the Obama Administration and bringing up the fact that the Obama Administration didnt ok in military aid or the form of javelins to ukraine in the trumpet administration did but then the irony of that is that trump was presumably then or is allegedly going against his own policy for personal gain and that is the key that its for his own personal political interests had nothing to do with National Security it had nothing to do with the stated policy of those people in state and defense today who are working for him and really like his trumpet administrations policy toward ukraine such an irony really to me one more person i want to ask you about that president transposed a lawyer you are really army is he starting to look like the real me he player here at the moment the one who was pushing all of this in a capacity as his personal lawyer lets not forget. Well i think its important to to underline personal lawyer he wasnt working for state he wasnt working for defense he wasnt a cabinet minister he was a personal lawyer that puts him at the same level of mike as Michael Cohen trumps personal lawyer who is now in jail so its really rather strange that if he were in charge of all of this and working for donald trump that he would have that much authority and of course he himself has said he wasnt doing anything that didnt did that he was defending and acting on the orders of his client so so there may come a time when when they dispute what they did in those 2 men dispute what the orders of the client really were but its hard to say because every day of reveals something new and sometimes astonishing isnt it just brenda one apple joining us from new york we really appreciate your time thank you. Thank you so continuing now with the hearings on capitol hill in washington d. C. This is laura cooper senior u. S. Department of defense officials already working to provide them i think this specific topic though is more suitable for a closed door session thats a good be thankful to your service to our country that is castro thank you chairman and thank you all for your testimony today i want to make an important distinction here because a few of my colleagues have rattled off countries where weve actually held up aid there is a big distinction between holding up aid for a legitimate policy reason Foreign Policy reason and holding up a because its part of a shakedown because its in the service of a president who asked for a political favor of a country to go investigate a political rival i think thats important for us to know. And i want to ask you. This cooper you said that the money was cleared to go private may 23rd is that right thats correct and it didnt get released until september 11th yes i should just clarify. The 2nd half of the ukraine Security Assistance and initiative was notified to congress on i believe it was may 23rd and then there was a waiting period for congressional approval and then after that point so in kind of mid june. Roughly it was available so perhaps 90 days or so 95 days or Something Like that yes i dont have it under in front of me and its not that sounds right well you both testified that the holden Security Assistance was not in the National Security interest of the United States and that the hold might embolden russia weve heard the same from numerous other witnesses that have come before us but this was not the only issue with the whole right we understand the people within the United States government had significant concerns about the legality of the whole as it relates to the empowerment control act this is because the money had been authorized by congress and signed into law by President Trump this cooper of the july meetings were there any discussions about whether the hold could be implemented in a legal fashion in the july 26th meeting my leadership raised the question of how the president s guidance could be implemented and proffered that perhaps the reprogramming action would be the way to do this but that more research would need to be done so then after that discussion. We had a lower level discussion at my level on the 31st of july and let me ask you about that july 31st meeting based on your conversations with colleagues at the d o d at the july 31st interagency meeting did you share your understanding of the legal legal mechanisms that were available at that time. Yes there and what were they i express that it was my understanding that there were 2 ways that we would be able to implement president ial guidance to stop gating the ukraine Security Assistance initiative and the 1st option would be for the president to do a recession the 2nd is a reprogramming action that the department of defense would do and both of those would require congressional notice yes there would be an extra step that the president would have to take to notify congress as far as you know was there ever any notice that was sent out to congress. I did express that i believed it would require notice to congress and that there was no such notice to my knowledge or preparation of such a notice to my knowledge and as far as you know there was never any official rescission or reprogramming of that money no sir not to my knowledge instead what happened was o. M. B. Devise an alternative solution involving creative footnotes to implement the whole and there came a time in august when the department of defense no longer supported these unusual footnotes because of concerns that there might not be sufficient time for d. O. D. To obligate the funds before the end of the fiscal year in violation of the impoundment control act so despite these concerns in mid august about the empowerment control act and all of these footnotes the hold nevertheless continued through september 11th even after now as an aside this is even after the whistleblower had come forward so right it is correct that the hold was released on september 11th yes well i know i and many of us here share d. O. D. s concerns about the legality of the hold and i want to thank you mr cooper for voicing d. O. D. s concerns to the white house in pursuing the National Security interests of the United States. The strength of. Chairman ms cooper based on the new emails that you mentioned in your opening and then subsequent. Declarations by some of my democratic colleagues that those emails were evidence that the ukrainians were aware of a military hold on july 25th theres now reporting out there saying that pentagon official reveals ukrainians asked about stalled security a. Its its being widely reported that ukraine asked about the hold on military aid on july 25th thats not what i heard from you is that correct sir of my exact words were that one email said that the Ukrainian Embassy and the House Foreign Affairs committee are asking about Security Assistance assistance distance not hold and then the 2nd email was the hill knows about the f m f situation to an extent and so does the Ukrainian Embassy those are the exact words and what do Security Assistance n f m f situation in these emails mean i dont want to speculate on what it means right they dont necessarily mean hold correct not necessarily and isnt it true that around the same time on be put a hold on 15 state department and usa idea accounts including f m f i dont know that specific detail but you cant say one way or another whether the inquiries in these emails were about the whole affair i cannot say for certain and you cant say one way or another whether the ukrainians knew about the hold before august 28th 2001000 when it was reported in politico correct. So i can just tell you that its the recollection of my staff that they likely knew but no i do not have a certain data point to offer you know its not unusual as it is cooper for Foreign Countries to inquire about foreign aid that theyre expecting from the United States is it. In my experience with the ukrainians they typically would call about specific things not just generally checking in on their assistance package or you were the president s alinsky on. October 10th in response to questions from more than 300 reporters over the course of the afternoon stated that he was not aware and had no knowledge of a hold on Security Assistance during the time of the july 25th phone call with President Trump i believe i saw that media reporting yes well back track and mr chairman i thank you both for being here this evening ambassador hale. Last week the country watched as President Trump attacked intimidated. Your colleague he attempted to intimidate your colleague ambassador evanovich who is of course a witness to this proceeding and subsequently secretary pompei o declined to condemn that attack bluntly put i think the secretarys secretary pompei owes. Silence is nothing less than a betrayal of the man and the woman whom he swore an oath to lead and its its a betrayal that has long term consequences to attracting and retaining retaining workforce to their morale to their effectiveness and to their overall strength so ambassador hill i want to give you an opportunity you know to with secretary pompei we did not do. Either in march of 2019 when the Vicious Smear Campaign kind of got kicked into high gear and yous are rightfully pressed for a strong statement in support of her or last week when the president and his son attack at her attacker again. Im offering you the opportunity to reaffirm to this committee and the millions of americans hopefully who are watching that marie on a bitch is a dedicated and courageous patriot and that she served with grace and dignity even in the face of that orchestrated an unsubstantiated smear attack against her and besser hail im giving you the opportunity to demonstrate leadership im giving you the opportunity to send a clear and resoundingly message to the men and women who serve in dangerous foreign post throughout the globe that what happened to marie yvonne of it. Was wrong. Thats your heel the floor is yours thank you congressman is using i. Entirely your description of out of it. The only bed matter when i took this job but immediately i understood that we had an exceptional officer doing exceptional work at a very critical embassy in kieve and during my visit to kiev i was very impressed by what she was doing there to the extent that i asked her if shed be willing to stay if that was a possibility because we had a gap coming up i support and believe in the institution and the people of the state department i am one of them i have been for 35 years all of us are committed to americas National Security and we are the best group of diplomats anywhere in the world and that support extends to all state officers who have testified before this committee if i may id like to read a letter that the undersecretary for management wrote on november 18th to the Ranking Member of the Senate ForeignRelations Committee in response to a communication from him a number of Department Employees have testified before the house of representatives during its inquiry regarding ukraine no employee has faced any adverse action by the department for testimony before congress on this matter the department will not discipline any Department Employee for appearing before congress in response to a subpoena the department has also proactively established a program to provide Financial Assistance with respect to private Counsel Legal fees incurred by Department Employees theres Additional Information but thats the essence of the message masseur hell then therefore are you saying real want to bitch is a dedicated and courageous patriot i do endorse what you say exactly how i think she served with grease and dignity in the face of the Smear Campaign yes she did and that what happened to her was wrong i believe that she should have been able to stay at post and continue to do the outstanding work and what happened to her was wrong thats right. Thank you sir thank you for clarifying the record because i wasnt sure where it was that she could go to set the record straight if it wasnt use or or where she could go to get her good name and reputation back if it were if it was in use or indeed i want to encourage you in the strongest terms possible stand your ground americas security and strength and prosperity is predicated in no small part on the professionalism of our Foreign Services corps and they need to know that you is the highest ranking professional diplomat in the entire state department have their backs or thank you for having ambassador you vonna bitches back the sea of me and with that mr chair or you should jordan. Thank you mr chairman list ms cooper the. Who who. Why did the office of management budget put a hold on the funds so the only information that i received was from the office of management and budget that they were operating at the direction of the president and they reported that he had concerns about corruption that is all that i knew about you but then your testimony president directly opposite managing budget to hold the funds because of his concerns about corruption in ukraine early judgment reason you agree that is the this the statement that the president reportedly made as reported to me by the office of management and budget and then you said in your testimony that based on recommendations from me and other key d. O. D. Advisers the Department Heads in cornish with a partner of state certified in may of 2019 that ukraine had taken the steps necessary and you certified the release of the dollars is that accurate that is correct sir but there was you know there was a small change in ukraine in the spring of 21000 wasnt there. Yes or yeah and can you elaborate on what that change was the government of the president the landscape was elected to government you got a brand new guy come in in fact he had just been i believe sworn in the day you prove the dollars it was a may 23rd think he was sworn in on baguettes as a couple days before but theres sort of a sort of a change in circumstances that seem to me would warrant at least maybe a 2nd look. And thats exactly what played out for a short time less than 2 months 55 days the our government evaluated the new situation pretty radical change you got a new government. In fact the previous one weve heard all kinds of things from from the democrats about the prosecutor general in the regime mr lloyd cinco and how bad he was so it took a while for that to get that all to happen new president s sworn in 2 months later the new Congress Comes in takes them a while to start until September September 5th that they get rid of this prosecutor and just a few days later the aide actually gets released. But the democrats get all kinds of other things they want to talk about but thats the way this played out seems to me as logical as you can you can do it and particularly when you put it in the broader framework of where this president is on concern about foreign aid is deep rooted concern in the corruption issue in ukraine the experience he had with high ranking you creating officials criticizing him and supporting secretary clinton in the 2016 election but all that together sort of it and it shows why it played out the way it did that i would you know back mr jones. Thank you mr chairman. And secretary hello i want to go back. To your support in affirmations of ambassador you give out of it. What i understand and by way thank you for that you know that our military leaves nobody on no soldier on the battlefield and i think those who are in leadership positions in the state department in our Intelligence Community have that bond of loyalty to each other and its very reassuring that you represent that. You 1st as i understand it got information about her situation in march. By early march secretary powell hey you had mentioned that sometime in the fall it received a letter from a former member of congress with complaints about the ambassador correct and that rhetoric that member of congress was congressman sessions and did you see that there was any basis to the claims of disloyalty or no i did not nor did the sectors state write in you visited kieve and you discussed in fact extending ambassador youve gone of its just turned on tell to remain at her post right it was a personal idea of mine yes obviously an indication that you valued her continued service there and you also stated to the ukrainian press that embassador yavanna bitch represents the president of the United States here in the ukraine in america stands behind her statements obviously trying to give her some public support correct correct and yet weeks later the president and mr giuliani unleashed what can only be characterized as an ugly Smear Campaign to about 2 to oust her. What was your reaction to the news articles in late march in which a corrupt ukrainian prosecutor attacked the ambassador. Well we were concerned we put out a statement that some of these allegations are an outright fabrication as they related to the do not prosecute list right and we began to discuss what we could do to deal with this matter right and then the the problems continued for investor you gonna bitch and as i understand it she emailed you on march 24th and indicated that quote the temple of social media and other criticisms were such that she felt she could no longer function unless there was a strong statement of defense of her from the debate state department. Is that correct correct and this message and secretary pompei i was aware of her situation is that correct yes i briefed him the next day and hes the ultimate authority who could issue that strong statement of support correct correct. But he never ever did issue a statement right we did not issue a statement at the time but in fact you and cite you testified around the same time that the secretary did not render assistance to a long serving and highly respected him bassett or he made 2 phone calls to Rudy Giuliani is that right