Foreign help on the front lines of libyas civil war the United Nations accuses several nations a violation an arms embargo how outside powers redrawing the battle lines of this conflict and can they be stopped this is inside story. Hello and welcome to the program im mr. Foreign powers are making the fighting in libyas 80 along civil war even west a draft u. N. Report is accusing several nations of violating. Amplifying what it calls a proxy conflict in the past year u. N. Investigators have found that jordan turkey and the United Arab Emirates routinely and sometimes blatantly supplied weapons and soldiers from chad and sudan were deployed on the ground both sides and the wall received foreign help the un recognized government in tripoli and forces loyal to world plea for hafta the experts say its highly probable that a jet from a half to our like launched the air strike that killed 53 refugees its migrants sent to new tripoli in july the report doesnt name the country bot both the u. A. E. And egypt have will play in supporting hafta. A sudanese military spokesman denies the findings of the report. I mean. There are none of our armed forces in libya the report mention the name of the leader of the rep it support forces which is part of the sudanese military and answers to its general commander the sudanese military forces cannot participate in any neighboring country without an official order which is a sovereign assured the decision to go to war scene troops outside can take place by a sovereign order or president ial order from the head of states this report when it speaks about the participation of a force from our military or truth on the ground our forces dont function in libya and just last month the Un Special Envoy to libya foreign nations to stop breaking the. Especially the foreign interference. Became even more blatant. Violations of the arms and. Especially. But also possibly was the presence on the ground of. The potential presence of ground of. Or many platers of the draw. And clear. Internationalization of the conflict. Now libyas areas of control are mainly divided between 2 rival powell is the United Nations recognized government of National Accord or g n a it controls tripoli in the west now most western countries support the d. N. A. As do turkey and qatar now in the east is the to book based parliament thats the center of power for 35 hafta and hes backed by egypt saudi Arabia Jordan sudan the United Arab Emirates the un recognized government accuses russia of deploying mercenaries to the frontlines near tripoli and in the u. S. To help end the conflict russia has denied having fighters in libya. I well lets bring in our guests now. He is the founder and general director of the independent think tank the sadic institute and he joins us from london in beirut is a retired military general and also joining us from london is in my body hes a known resident scholar at the middle east institute welcome to you all now we have heard quite a lot from cousin salami over the last few months and i recall back in may he warned that the arms and buggered then it was already on its way to becoming used the phrase a cynical joke is that whats happened on us is the arms embargo now a joke. Well its been a joke for the last 5 years and i think since libyas 2nd civil war in 2014 which was sparked by no other than what if after it was only made possible because it was supported by u. A. E. And egyptian sixteens at the time 25th of august when they started the strikes in tripoli but also just the blatant violations of the arms embargo the sense i mean the fact that he moved from a little foothold in benghazi to the outskirts of tripoli in 4 years was an of luck it was because of the arms embargo violations and the ambivalence of the International Community to stop him from doing so. Let me ask you then youre a retired military general go south how do we know exactly where the weapons are coming from and how they actually getting into libya its not their secret dont know how. The weapons as for the government of mr thumb rajputs is which is that a government internationally qatar and turkey deal with their official delish them a government and the supply of any supply with any is so severe in state but and the other side get out of the for half the army received not only weapons but d also warships and defense missiles and enforcers with a 1000 to dennys droops which is. Meddling in the Libyan Affairs by the new sudanese regime. So this is all. A breach or a violation for the International Community. Is allusion to and what about the flow of weapons to libya so the International Community unfortunately is silent through this breach and. Clear when general have launched an attack against the police and stop this others of tripoli. And did the mention of going to be were looking at the victims and the people display of guilt. Without their doing any response to this. Back and the without we are going to begin this new International Community shortly but i do want to dig in a little deeper now into these 1000 sudanese troops that you just mentioned there and that im going to ask you about this because these are all members of the Rapid Support forces who as we know whether rebranded jonjo we have essentially from darfor and these were deployed by him mehdi who is now the deputy head of the Sovereign Council in sudan so in your mind here what i have met is motivation is this about money well there was a u. N. Report of the panel of experts actually not of libya but of sudan back in january highlight that there was an agent of the food rebels on both sides of the libyan conflict predominantly for financial reasons however there have been more. Somewhat constructive or more utilized by how far in his advance and belatedly after what had happened in sudan a canadian lobbying for. Allegedly based on the leaks of the u. N. U. N. Panel of experts report on libya have helped finance a strike a financial deal whereby i made that met to you would actually supply with weapons so then mercenaries this is actually theres quite a lot of specifics in this report the report also specifies the type of plane that carried out this air strike on that joran migrant camp that killed these 53 refugees and they say its a mirage 2000 dash 9 plane and mr farhad i believe those planes usually come from the u. A. E. Or egypt for short of the there were planes they came from United Arab Emirates. Make no secret of that. They are supporting General Hospital and good. After all it is very likely. The United Arab Emirates and talks with them and receive d funding and there is also weapons and its there of the bottle here its going to the bottle and libya and you know that this and the invention started since 911. 00 when the whats called the libya under pollutions again because of it. There were many medals and support from the emirates 2 groups in libya of them generally for half hour well also since then the way that this whole conflict has been carried out has also changed and i see that the u. N. Is estimating that just in the past 6 months the 2 sides of conducted more than 900 Drone Missions and so when when this assault began on tripoli back in april and lots of people said that have to have this advantage because he was using these trains and the report specifies hes a chinese made drones that came from the u. A. E. But each of these costs 2000000. 00 so you tell me where is have to getting his money from. Well i think its a wider question here and i think this is just like about your original question for a moment you know the arms embargo violation didnt start on april 4th when after started his attack on tripoli the irony here is the airbase which theyre using in Eastern Libya the u. A. E. Is an air base was being completed during the uns mediation in 2014 so was the un was bringing over libyans to try and struggle towards conducting a peace deal the u. A. E. Was building a war base in libya to prepare for another war now the un the un knew this and did nothing about it as a condemn them hasnt tried to turn to sanction them but they built their 1st overseas base inside of libya and in the town of them in Eastern Libya and theyve been using that the 5 years now in other cities where if i have to start this 1st war and but hersey they displace the 100000 civilians in the 2nd set you have done away 2nd campaign was he killed injured or displaced a quarter of the population using those very drones in fact using drones that were not only supplied by the u. A. E. But were operated with tractors by erik prince formally a blackwater all of these things are know not only in this report but in the reports that have been published over the last 5 years so theres an irony here that we think its just in a flash in the pan or just another moment but this is being going on for 5 years the trick question here is why has no one look to try to stop earlier and why has the condemnation or even the veiled criticism of the start now when this is nothing new under the sun has been going on for 5 years so that when some of his knowledge different resolutions that leave that is the question that i want to ask and ill let you thats for it and very i also want to direct him that after that i had. Well very briefly you know theres been using some quite exotic techniques to try to acquire and to create wealth in Eastern Libya the 1st is that he created the military Investment Authority which is effectively destroyed so much of libyas Public Resources the homes of people that have been displaced you know so infrastructure to scrap it for metal and scrap metal now is a 1000000000. 00 industry an export of one of the highest in the world now in Eastern Libya and thats going towards. Fulfilling and sustaining his push towards tripoli but the most peculiar of all i think is the breaking or the shattering of International Financial norms by russia who printed at least 12000000000 than ours and ship them counterfeit money that is the 1st time has happened in history and theyve been shipping this over to to libya for the last 2 and a half years and thats something that has gone on to not only sustain the war but its breaking an International Financial norm that theyre creating counterfeit money in a mickey mouse money and sending it to to libya and then that Sovereign Central Bank in tripoli is forced to accept it so you know its not only the fact that hes making money its how hes making that money in the 2nd question is when he uses that my to spend it on to own weapons who is he putting it in the hands of and i think your 2nd speaker in beirut mention that it was in the hands of an army its anything but an army as youve sown and as the statements have already demonstrated its mercenaries its russian mysteries its people that have not only come just to fight for for money but we dont know there are the logical background there many of them the saudi inspired radical radicals that is the metal is that ive been been used in reference than previous reports so its really chaotic when you think of that the my critics here as well as the as the macro one well honestly talking about all of this cash thats being shipped around right now i see that just in the last couple of weeks malta said it stopped a huge shipment of unofficial libyan banknotes and and they said it was 256 cubic metre containers of cash thats a huge amount and they think that it came from a russian mint so imad let me ask you how reliant is the l n a then on Russian Support. Well theres a big question here or your 1st question is quite person in the sense that the big question right now is whether huff there is actually paying for the weapons hes getting and whether this conflict can drag on. Given the amount of finances the i asked the spender the mound the money as to mobilize in order to pay everyone coopt tribes call local armed groups etc etc so theres the big question is right now whether huffed will actually aim to dethrone and his International Allies actually dethrone the governor of the central bank in future political negotiations in order for him to be able to continue is. It cannot make or lets say because aside the war thats been happening on the ground there has been as honest pointed out there has been a new economic war thats been waged in the sense the hough there has predated over Revenue Generation mechanisms in the east hes created his own does Mobilization Authority there was also that was also rumored to have been established in the past couple of weeks and this is a Mobilization Authority that would actually be particularly aimed at gathering finances to finance this war this tripoli offensive in particular so now the big question is what happens to the libyan economy and whether. And his International Allies will seek to weaponize the economy and seek to actually allow huffed or to continue gathering financing gathering money in order to take over libya economically not just militarily all let me ask you its funny that i am sad because i just want to throw this figure at you 25000000000. 00 of debt is apparently around and that this was actually back in april this report that have to had run up 20 5000000000. 00 of debt if he runs out of cash could that mean theres an opportunity then for a deescalation of the conflict or do you just not see it going that way. Well the idea no is that since the loss of the cure than im not mistaken in late june since the loss of libby and how floors been essentially been extremely reliant on foreign airstrikes or foreign operated drone strikes to maintain his war effort so at this point in time it is rumored that. Huff the International Allies of half there are basically trying to improve his military or improve sort of the military. Conditions of this war to allow him to have a favorable position ahead of a political settlement so the idea right now is that if that happens and we dont know what are the factors are based on what theyre assessing this exactly what will are favorable conditions the hopes are in this in this particular environment but if that happens then thats where the International Allies will step in to actually help huffed gain an advantage whether it be Political Economic or even on the security front well speaking of International Allies i mean this is a good point i want to play you a video from a year ago right so this whole video was released by the Libyan National army thats Khalifa Haftar us forces and he is this is him hes on a visit to moscow this is november last year and there he is hes greasing the Russian Defense minister sergei sugar but theres also someone else whos very influential at this meeting missing him now walk into that meeting and im going to try to say to stop that shot that lets take a look at that shot of have to as hes walking into the meeting room now the man behind have to be then goes on to participate in this meeting thats yevgeny progress and hes the head of the wagner group im going to ask you las as someone whos been involved in in the military will self tell us a little more about this man and the outfit that he runs they were also i believe involved in syria. Yes about now group is their private Security Company in russia. The 1st. Stuff was and dumped in eastern mccain yeah where they supported the separatists and crania and to. To build their own entity political entity and that but now that about it in syria as well and the mountains of a lot backyard in the Syrian Desert this is and where. The russia needs deniability in any action that was taken that should be taken by these groups maybe massacres or Something Like this the same as. The private security groups interacted. With blackwater and others and now they do is that they are joining a cliff or have thought in Eastern Libya is very dangerous because. There are not that hook and eyes in russia offer surely but. Practically they are taking part in the conflict in libya with one side with the general have to and. Of course they do that to get money and a large amount of money millions of does so they would pay the money if any for half that and his supporters will pay them the money and the tasks that they are cute in this fight is that that the tasks that some places special targets and so i think that russia is. Not officially supporting have thought of but its practically through right now a group doing a good job from the start have started to advance in india and. Well we have heard this number of about 200 mess neris potentially in in libya and weve been also hearing reports from hospitals seeing who are now seeing different kinds of gunshot wounds that look like theyre coming from sniper rifles various different reports like that so honest tell me what do you think russia is trying to achieve here what do they want to achieve out of this conflict. Russia is playing a very very precarious game that has very little actually to do with libya because when you look at actually who theyve supported president a proven is actually a very good place to start because 2 of his associates were arrested at the beginning of the conflict in april in tripoli and their hard drives were were scanned and documents were found that they were trying to reach out to surface land at their feet the former leader of the country son whos been in prison and and has been at almost disappeared for the last 6 years trying to create a a bed for him or and turrell but for him and theyre also well known to have worked on trial farms which were investigated as part of the mother report last year so this is something that is also quite strange because theyre working with that faction but theyve also signed deals economic deals with the with the jna the tripoli that government over the last the last 12 months so we deal of worth over a 1000000000. 00 rosneft the National Russian oil company has signed a deal with the d. N. A. In late 2016 so when you look at what theyre doing theyre actually working with everyone and what their strategy is is to destabilize the country to disrupt the relationships that the genie has that the enemy has that even surface lemay have with all of these western partners so that when it comes to a negotiation the west fears this mammoth size russia that wherever it looks lefroy or center finds them there and then has to bargain and negotiate with them and their bargaining position is going to be quite strong and the negotiation will have very little to do with libya because theyre more interested in e. U. Sanctions on ukraine in crimea and theyre trying to get out of that and libya is just a theater or even a pantomime for that kind of play so it should be seen in its wider context they found the perfect spoiler with after because hell fight to the last messenger is so you know with him its very very easy throwing at him external support and backing hes looking for it but it goes beyond him and it goes beyond what most western countries particularly those in live in libyas neighborhood in the e. U. Or the europeans or the neighborhood are concerned about which is you know that kind of the stabilization that will lead to migration flows or or even the. The emergence of iceland in the. Region thats where the fears of european policymakers are and their worry is that this protracted conflict will only exacerbate those 2 issues they have to negotiate with russia the clear issue i have with this is that if we misplace our assessment of what russia is what it is doing and what it hopes to achieve and we think its a Service Level they just wont have to like like the u. A. E. And france or russia or the u. A. E. Egypt and france that actually conceals the role of the ideological partners of after like the u. A. E. And like egypt to and not just for the money or any for the financial gain or any small political gain they existentially need libya to not become a civilian states to basically not become to not become a successful democratic transition its either got to look like yemen a failed state or its go like egypt an authoritarian state and if we focus so much on russia we can see all those 2 factors d and the problems that could arise in future negotiations those that are looming now in berlin is that the west fears are very very strong robust after with Russian Support so or politically from russia and given to you know actors and International Players that we like like the egyptians like the u. A. E. Trust the partners in the region and thats just maintaining the status quo that still leaves libya with in a very old 70 year old man that again will try and fight with more mercenaries or to the last mercenary and it still leaves a beer in the midst of a civil war that will not stop unless and thats the key point here when you look at the way they have there has mobilized his forces us to pay for them when you look at whats happened in the west of libya and all of the civilians that put their weapons that it doesnt have a hand going come back im going to i dont want to bring him out into this discussion as well and and part of the reason i want to talk about whats happening with russia but also western powers as you mentioned is that us this beilin conference and the balun conference were supposed have happened in october then it was going to be november now theyre talking about potentially next year it really feels like this International Peace process has stalled somewhat so imad what is the reason for the delay then is there any kind of hope of resolution here. Ok well ill jump on a point i mean as mentioned earlier with regard to the russian and also relates to mention the game of the russian on the russian side in the conflict in libya is not a new engagement of pm sees a private military contractors like wagner they have been engaged on half their side for a while now for about 3 years almost other differences in the past few months what we have seen is a transition from their location there are actually rumored to be actively participating at the front line so thats a big change giving given also the primitive type the way the libyan conflict this war on the ground a group of 100 people is really a Significant Group of 100 mercenaries lets say that have previous battle experience is really a significant problem so thats thats 11 side of things the other side of things as you mentioned with regards to berlin is that because the conflict is keeping being intractable and in this way and because also the proprietary meetings in the preparatory meetings the germans are actually trying to push for all sides to be. Neutral or abide by certain rules that means that it hasnt been held because most of the actors currently engaged on the libyan conflict you things in 0 sum terms. Well theres going to be a lot more negotiations around this topic and im sure well all be following them very closely thank you so much for your time today thank you to all our guests. And my body and thank you too for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website aljazeera dot com and for further discussion do go to our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com for a inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter our handle is at a. J. Inside story from main stars your take on the whole team here and our tough i think. For other current efforts to contain the spread of Nuclear Weapons doing enough to keep the world safe the most crucial political challenge is how to stop Nuclear Explosions from up me on this planet together because that cue to secretary of the comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty Organization is seen as cookstown jazeera russia has jeopardized the United States security interests we know what you are doing and you will not succeed perceptions from the outside looking. Into the picture from the inside. I think russias Foreign Policy is too soft continuous motion against him between not. All knowledge is in. Aljazeera where every. Aljazeera. Very warm welcome to news hour. 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