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The global cost of online crime is expected to reach 6. 00 trillion dollars by 2021 Cyber Attacks are now one of the biggest concerns for governments and companies around the world an International Conference in qatar is now looking at ways to fight side of crime but are we doing enough to defend ourselves and do we even understand the risks this is inside story. Hello and welcome to the program im daryn jordan around somewhere a cyber attack happens every 14 seconds in the past year alone theres been an 11 percent increase in Security Breaches by hackers these growing figures show just how big a threat cyber crime has become with Security Experts fighting the hakas the cyber crime economy is growing so quickly its now making profits of 1. 00 trillion dollars each year a recent Microsoft Survey suggests executives now consider Cyber Attacks to be the top threat to their businesses experts are gathered here in qatars capital doha to boost Cyber Defense and formulate digital policy. Well here are some of the worlds most high profile Cyber Attacks in 2013 yahoo shocked the world when it confirmed that a cyber attack had affected all 3000000000 of its User Accounts in 2014 the Us Entertainment Group Sony Pictures was attacked hackers demanded the cancellation of the release of the interview a comedy that depicted an assassination plot against north koreas leader kim jong un in 2018 the u. S. Along with australia canada the u. K. And new zealand all accuse china of conducting a 12 Year Global Campaign of Cyber Espionage russia is accused of hacking the accounts of democratic officials in the us in an attempt to sway people to vote for donald trump in the 2016 president ial election and just this week in georgia thousands of websites were attacked including those of the president the courts and the media t. V. Stations were hacked and temporarily unable to broadcast. Well lets bring in our guests mark isaac is a lecturer in Computer Network security at the university of central lancashire he joins us from preston in the United Kingdom and Mark Einstein is chief analyst for Digital Services at japan thats a research and Advisory Firm focused on i. T. He joins us from tokyo welcome to both our guests Marc Einstein let me start with you if i may because youve worked with companies around the world in setting up their Cyber Defenses but given the scale of the threat today in the sophistication of Cyber Attacks are we losing the battle against the hackers and if so why. I think you can make the case that we are you know now we have this phenomenon called the internet of things which is several years old now and you know this is the number one reason that companies are really hesitant to be more and more connected i think what is so interesting about this is that the majority of the hacks that we see are actually not very sophisticated theyre caused by things or having to all passwords or passwords like 12345 and you know these basic mistakes are holding back billions or even trillion dollars in corporate product of 80. Macs eyes in preston i mean the head of Britains National Cybersecurity Center recently warned that the u. K. Will be hit by a life threatening catch a green one cyber emergency in the very near future i mean that sounds absolutely terrifying i mean so what does that mean and how prepared is britain to defend itself against something so horrifying to be honest. Absolutely it is terrifying in us and we have seen i mean the want to cry the n. H. S. Attack that have been 2017 showed us how devastating a cyber attack could be on a Public Sector service like the National Health service and sense then there have been a lot of. Countermeasure that has been taken the lesson has been learned and we are trying now to put countermeasures around defenses in place but as mark said no one will be 100 percent protected because of the. Them the huge amount of devices we have these days the different technologies we are using these days have you have a Great Security but you have a weak bias for then your security will be used defenseless so we are also you know while work on the technology and the defense we are also working on to use our awareness to reno trying to raise. The Peoples Awareness to their best for their security to their data brava say trying to work on both sides ok g. And a human let me let me bring back mark there in tokyo i mean mark just explain to our viewers why Cyber Security is so important i mean governments and companies now seem to be spending huge amounts of money on security to protect themselves how theyve been mostly successful and what does it take do you think to win the war against Cyber Attacks against the cyber criminals. So i think that you know basically we live in an air an era of increased connectivity i think one of the most interesting examples that i saw very recently was in the u. K. One of the new airports there actually has their air Traffic Control center offsite so theres no tower in this airport its remote if somebody hacked into this you could easily kill thousands of people shut down an economy were not seeing these kind of catastrophic events happen yet but there certainly is a potential there is an increasing the tension will i think you know part of the solution to this is going to be advanced Ai Technology theres just so much data traffic now theres so many connected devices and there just arent enough people that can sit in front of a computer screen and monitor whats going on this is going to have to be automated and this is going to require Artificial Intelligence Going Forward in my opinion all right well as youve touched on the issue of ai let me put back to excise a very impressive i mean max what about the rise then of official intelligence when this require a new dialogue a new awareness of the challenges within the ai space. So they agree with mark we need a i technologies to step ben and employ these technologies into Cyber Defense to protect the assets and because we dont have enough. Human by our lets say i mean we need a lot of laws and laws off of superhumans to actually said down and look at massive amounts of data and try to work out if there is an attack happening or if theres attack about to happen and cetera. And the route you know recent reports is showing that companies and corporations are struggling to identify the risks let alone actually defending against Cyber Attacks because if theres a lot of information to digest and analyze and you know bridou sort of results so i think they are it will be massive held into this arena and let me bring also the other term we use sometimes interchangeably here which is a Machine Learning so we can actually use Machine Learning as i said lets imagine a sober human who can sit and look at massive amounts of data learn the data learn the button see how they interact with each other and the bridge dect that this asset is could be under attack or this attack is actually happening right now and the produce defenses or countermeasures against them so i totally agree ai and Machine Learning will be a massive hope in the near future marc i mean youre nodding there are we talking about Artificial Intelligence only here are we talking about mental intelligence with human input as well i think were talking about ball but what im specifically talking about which was just echoed by the other panelist is that you know we need kind of superhuman abilities but we also need automated abilities were not quite there yet with the technology i think Going Forward were going to start with kind of the Machine Learning which is. We are now then get into more ai and then get into more. This kind of how i would see the market developing yeah max let me come back to you because you touch briefly on the issue of understanding the risks is there a sense that one of the reasons that governments and companies and ordinary people like you and i become victims of cyber crime is that we dont actually understand the risks to ourselves our money our data and our privacy the risk issue is very important isnt it. It is indeed and part of the reason we dont understand the risk is that we do not allow enough time for the technology to be tested and for the risks to be assessed and this is again reflected bardsley because we dont have enough power like a human power to actually sit down and do all the analysis and also for us boss as well because technologies and companies usually rush into. The releasing their products you know for marketing and competition burgesss so we end up sometimes with a lot of products that hasnt been 100 percent percent test that or the rest hasnt been really identified that we end up actually having to take the hit if it happens and we end up with a lot of in us about data breaches or a security hacks etc on the broad docs that is actually used by people. Mark on time there in tokyo let me come to you with a question about about risk as well because in 2017 microsoft did a survey that found Something Like 62 percent of companies saw Cyber Attacks as a top 5 risk to their business is now in 2019 that figure jumped to 79 percent above other risks like Economic Uncertainty brand reputational damage and so on does this indicate that companies are starting to at least understand the risks i dont think that that true i mean if i were to you know think about that serbia i actually think it could be closer to 100 percent i think something that is maybe help that a little bit is that when the g. D. P. Are the privacy regulations were introduced in the e. U. I think it became very very clear to everyone in the corporate sector that if you dont secure your data you could pay billions and billions of dollars in fines from the e. U. And the e. U. Is not of great to go after people like google or apple or whoever i think that was the. A little bit of a wake up call that may have contributed to that bigger let me let me just stay with you mark and ask you a question about the next big challenge for the Cyber Industry and people are now talking about deep faith for example and this ability to clone someones voice and their image i mean thats going to be a nightmare for Security Specialists like you isnt it i think that that is going to be the next big thing unfortunately i think its going to be chaotic you know i think were very close to being able to clone other peoples voices and then you know make rhonda one bomb calls but if you even take that a step further you could happen chap by that you program with someones voice to make coal so you dont even need someone behind the phone to do cybercrime in the next few years i think this is going to be a disaster and i think were not ready for this at all and i think that were going to need some new technologies to be able to address this is well yeah i mean max whats your whats your take then on the next big challenge for the Security Industry is it problems like deep fake and how you fight how you combat that well its what i mentioned earlier about the use of ai and the shia learning into comeback and a Cyber Attacks unfortunately these technologies are available also for the attackers so you can imagine if the attacker start employing Ai Technologies into their Cyber Attacks so the Cyber Attacks will be more sophisticated they will be able to learn more about your defenses and try to evade detection cetera so that it will be a very you know a big challenge for companies because while theyre trying to use. A i n semicolon into 2 to defend the attackers or the hackers are using Machine Learning and there to show intelligence to attack so that will be a big challenge that will be a big. Comeback coming our way and we need to. We need to put the effort like marc said about you know the laws and the regulations that came into effect the g. D. R. For example how to talk asst minds into the importance of securing the data and making sure that your products are secure otherwise you will be paying a lot of fines and i think thats a step in the right direction but there is a long way to go you know to put more effort into these technologies marc let me come back to you for a 2nd because lets just wind the clock back for a minute if you look at the evolution of cyber crime i mean 20 years ago it was some spotty teenager in a dark basement trying to hack somebodys email now its huge bank fraud and big state is using it as a weapon of war a weapon of fake news whats changed. Well i would say that you know you certainly see it on a larger scale you see certain countries that are able to you know disrupt Nuclear Facilities in others. Use you do see kind of state sponsored backing i think some states have kind of figured out that this is a basically Cost Effective way to wage war and it can also be very profitable for some states but i would also take a step back at that if you look at one of the biggest Cyber Attacks ever was the mirror i bought an i bought net attack in 2016 this was still done by 216 year old gamers so we do have this rise in state sponsored cyber warfare but you know it still can be easy enough that some clever kids with some you know Computer Science skills and still do it so i actually think that we see both and much if you if you look at the scale of this week cyber attack in georgia for example 2000 websites attacked t. V. Stations not tout the allegation at this point is that russia was behind the attack its purely an allegation but whats this telling us about the point that Mark Einsteins making about state sponsored attacks is this a new kind of asymmetric warfare but in cyberspace do you think. It is because some states are realizing that in order to hit back its other states using cyber or cyber warfare is the way to go so we have now you know recently this emerging phenomena about state backed cyber were for you know when you know not only russia i mean in some states like north korea for example there have been a lot of reports saying that the they brought a lot of money into their economy like billions of dollars has been brought into north korean economy just based on Ransomware Attacks and the bay ments that has been made for the so it is and it is unfortunate and when you look at it from an individual point of view the technology again as i like i said the problem is acknowledges it is like 2 sides so we have the bitcoin phenomena and the last few years and the rise of the bitcoin price nearly 1010000. 00 so bitcoin has been very very attractive is untraceable currency so it is tempting for a lot of individuals or kids or even organizations to mount attacks and profit from them whether you have a and ideological reason to do it or political or even just for profit or easy money mark i want to ask you a quick question if i can about the value of data because Cyber Attacks of course can lead to loss of money data reputation privacy amongst other things but are we now seeing more Cyber Attacks because of the growth of huge amounts of data on these on this plethora of digital platforms like social media why is data so valuable well i think you know a lot of people say that data is the new oil arm ive heard of examples or even you know forms in indonesia make. I talked with the e. O. There. When he told me that you know hackers were actually going after his connected farm because theyre trying to get data thats not on the market and then theyre trying to trade financially and invest from that so you know getting this data that not public and being able to utilize that or you know like like the other speaker said about crypto currencies is and i think another perfect example you know data is kind of the new oil it is valuable and hackers are extremely creative people in terms of either ransoming this data back or using it to make financial gain through Financial Market all right lets just move the argument on if we can and look ahead at the future of Cyber Security in terms of what you guys will be doing in the next few months and years ahead let me start with you max if i may are we likely to see do you think more companies and corporations forming cybersecurity alliances as a way to share assets and strengthen defenses i mean were already seeing examples like the Cyber Threats alliance the Global Cyber Alliance but do these alliances work is there strength in numbers do you think. I think so i think this is an important step in the right direction because we need collaborations among different corporations and on states as well. Governments organize you know on organizations need to step in and try to promote and you know encourage these collaboration i mean imagine what we do usually when we are looking looking at the normal crime you know the bullies forces are around the Globe Exchange data and try to come up with you know with it with a solution i think with Cyber Security when cyber crime we need to follow similar approach we need to more collaborations more alliances i mean looking around the globe theres a lot of effort to go and on like you would look for big conferences and summits trying to bring be able to gather from organizations corporations governments bodies to try to but together a task force if you may say to bro guess and try to counter attack the you know the the an unholy alliance of hackers because hackers also have their own ways of exchanging data occasion targets you know so i think we need to do that as well and there are there you know as a step in the right direction my consular let me let me come to you again with this issue about the alliances in play devils advocate because some critics say that alliances might not be the way forward because the largest Platform Companies like your google Apple Microsoft facebook theyre increasingly finding themselves in conflict with governments on issues like policy on issues like regulation and they themselves are also targets of cyber crime and Cyber Attacks. Right so i think when you talk about alliances i do agree that sharing data is certainly not a bad thing so the more data that a Machine Learning algorithm has the stronger it becomes and so people are sharing data working together thats great but i think at the end of the day you know nobody is 100 percent safe from a cyber attack no no organization in the world i think the key to being safer than the best thing you can do is you have to be better than your peers and so i think were going to see a lot more hacking as a service where you invite people to kind of try out your network you know i think that part one of the key is you want to appear as secure as you can so you dont become an easy target so there definitely are benefits to joining alliances sharing data and all this kind of stuff but i think at the end of the day you also need to share the be sure that your house is in order as a number one priority and max thats an important point that mark just made that i mean you touched on it you know what about powerful nation states coming together i mean the European Union for example has a number of Cyber Defense groups but so far countries not the us china russia they seem to be against any kind of cooperation they seem to prefer a more isolationist and state controlled approach to me. Yeah thats true the problem is unfortunately like like mark just said you all they everyone is cares about their home being safe 1st and and i think theres a bit of resistance against collaboration especially among big states because they are combat authority in other fields so i think there is a bit of a resistance to collaboration and in that field but nobody is safe like mark just said nobody is safe and a cyber attack unless it starts getting specific country or you know its a state. Supported cyber attack will you know will affect every one of us because technology has no no borders no limitations everybodys using technology you know technologies for example for produce in the u. S. Produced in china for example so i think while there is resistance i think we need to you know overcome these differences and collaborate the sooner the better so let me just end the discussion then gentleman by asking you mark 1st what about our says users and consumers many of us think that cybersecurity is something for the government for the black cats but what can we as individuals do to defend ourselves. Well i think the good news is that this is somewhat easier then than you know some of the things weve been talking about and again i think the vast majority of cyber crime that you see is actually fairly basic its people that have passwords like 12345 its people that never change their password you know these kinds of things are very very easy to avoid i think people need to be more vigilant i think people that have parents who are in the older generations need to you know be kind of in touch with whats going on with them and i think theres a variety of very affordable and very good Anti Malware Software thats out there so all these kinds of things might sound quite obvious but are not really being followed thats really which is why were having this problem max size a final thought from you then what can we as ordinary individuals what can our viewers do to defend ourselves against Cyber Attacks against the hackers. Yeah i would echo a lot of what marc just said about being vigilant to making sure that you dont download cations from unknown sources you just make sure for example when you have you have a link on an email anon email dont click on that one just be aware to make sure that you have a you know your devices are up to date your security settings are there keep an eye on the news i mean sometimes keeping an eye on the news is very important because if you have something that has been hacked you need to update it cetera so i think being vigilant raising awareness and making sure that you talk to your parents your children if you have as well to make sure that they are so ok your and driver that is very important all right gentlemen we have to leave it there thank you very much to our guests mark stein in tokyo and dr max in lancaster thank you both and thank you too for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website aljazeera dot com and for further discussion go to our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com forward slash a. 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