A country where half the population lives on less than 5. 00 a day you accept lets use no its not a question of accepting or not accepting part of the challenge that we have is that part of that is actually Government Property which was actually for purposes of ensuring that there are Health Facilities nearby for the president to be able to be looked after or any of the stuff in 2016 there was a lot more Constitutional Court ruling that said. Jacob zuma should pay some money back it also ruled against the National Assembly that you were speaker saying you would quote fail to fulfill its constitutional obligations to hold the president accountable thats a thats an indictment of you years a speaker of parliament is not an indictment of an individual because the individual actually does not determine the position that parliament or the National Assembly actually end up taking. Democratic alliance versus speaker of the National Assembly shall you because i am the leader and therefore on behalf of the institution i become the person who is quoted do you believe you are a neutral impartial speaker. Then why is it that as a neutral impartial speaker you had to apologize for calling an Opposition LeaderJulius Malema a cockroach. Is that a neutral impartial. Not in parliament so lets not say you only neutral in part. I said but even you know political context i was in the north where id had to apologize you dont sound very apollos it was not correct for me to call another person a cockroach whether im. Just looking forward south africa has a new president who claims to be determined to stamp out corruption even though he himself has been accused of Misleading Parliament over a Campaign Donation and even though out of 21. 00 corruption scandals during the 25 years in office just one senior party figure has been brought to account in terms of going to jail how can anyone have confidence in the current government to clean things up when only one person went to prison i think you have seen the excellence of the president. How he has dealt with the issues of strengthening the institutions of governance strengthening in particular the Justice System bringing in people who are going to act differently people who are going to have the courage and to do things focused on correcting what has been wrong in the system just on the one person who was sent to prison this was the former chief whip tony who was sent to jail for fraud i believe you accompanied him to the prison gates how is are not putting your party and your alliances above the interests of parliament in the country accompanied. Me because i did not believe in what he was being said to have done and i accompanied him as a complete so you dont accept the courts verdict and democrats im not saying that im just telling you that accompanied it and i dont feel guilty for that you dont can you tell our viewers what position tony and danny this ex convict was appointed to by the a. N. C. Last Year Position he was appointed to chair of the working group on corruption. One thing how the person who went to prison. On corruption in the a. N. C. Political lives. We look at things sometimes not exactly the way other people like adam agree with. Lets go to our panel who weighed in to come in im joined by mco seacoast a former m. P. Who resigned from the party in 2017 after calling for president zuma to step down following corruption allegations in your view macos and you were there for a lot of this period did the a. N. C. Fail to hold president zuma to account did the speaker fail to hold the president to account in your view of course yes i think they did fail to hold him to account and in fact some of us that were speaking out against what we saw is an attack on the constitution and on to social contract where persecuted and especially. Is somebody that i held in high esteem is somebody who will molded me as a young person and as a feminist i expected to date or to have receive some kind of support from her so from that point of view i honestly to think it in terms of into tisha snus leadership in treaties justness i think they have to prove themselves if they are to people leave did you fail to give them a cosi support she needed to let it out i didnt let it down she and i had a Quick Exchange outside just to agree that we have stuff to catch up on and we will do that ok i mean im all for you catching go but just for the purposes of the people watching around the world in this room do you want to deal with the point you made it down as a feminist as an m. P. Trying to hold the president you were there to back her oh i was there to back up when she needed security i made sure that we should look into the issues of what kind of support parliament had to ensure she had and we did. With that very fairly very focused said lee. Kalani is the executive chairman of south African Business abroad a member of the a. N. C. Do you think people have faith in the sea to deal with this corruption issue thats been festering on their watch especially given the current president has his own Campaign Donation issues going on where local South Africans have a huge feat in the African National congress you must remember that we inherited a situation where we have infrastructure that was not capable to assist our people hospitals were only designed for the privilege the majority of black people were able to attend hospital if you are known to universities they were not there catering for black people so we put all that the government of the. Have done so much for the south African People it is for that reason the low that they keep voting for them but i must add Something Else the fact that i am having this privilege to have this discussion with you in the United Kingdom it is also that the government of the n. C. We were not allowed to have black people to be able to see the top 3 me it was a criminal offense for me to be the last thing i wanted to see it come to the corruption issue very briefly when it happens in africa we label it as corruption but it happens in the hours of come on m p is out came into houses and we call it a scandal but when hes in africa as corruption charges make will receive a. Thank you i thank you let me bring in Andrew Feinstein whos another former and c m. P. Resigned back in 2001 these are all sort of after the party a personal journey inside the a. N. C. Is now director of corruption watch u. K. And you said you left the a. N. C. Because the government at the time refused to investigate corruption properly how bad has the corruption issue become for the South African government not just on the tab mbeki but jacob zuma and the polls. 1st of all many i think that kalani is point is very well taken i think that we mustnt lose sight of what has been done in 25 years of democracy nor lose sight of the fact that what we inherited was a systemically corrupt system the biggest problem has been however that our only to ship including comrade and better whos been a very important leader of our liberation struggle and of our democratic era have not been prepared to call out. Colleagues in leadership who have engaged in corruption and that started all those years back with the arms deal that i try to investigate in which south africa spent 10000000000. 00 on weapons that we neither needed no barely used and the primary reason that was done is because around 300000000. 00 of bribes were paid and unfortunately then president tabo mbeki was prepared to undermine our institutions of democracy including parliament that he and many others that sacrificed so much to bring about in order to cover up corruption if that had been stopped then i dont think we would have gone on to the state capture crisis the unkindly across the let me put that point to did you never feel the need to call out your jacob zuma or did you just feel you couldnt you were in the big 6 in the leadership of the party you know there is a tendency to be even hiring for things to be damned positions to be taken against people before the actual investigation has been down but youre acting like this is just popped up now as these things were happening you were being criticised you dont just get a report from someone and they declare whatever they say whatever they believe you must do and you just rushed off and do it you go to app apply your own mind into whatever people see ok right under is just right to come again very briefly and these are constitutional bodies there was a report from the order to general about corruption in the arms deal in 2000 parliament decided unanimously to conduct a multiagency investigation into it it was the leadership of the a. N. C. That stopped that investigation because leadership of the a. N. C. With themselves complicit and this is been the problem time after time the information has been there from constitutionally mandated bodies another big topic thats in the news especially right now in south africa. In recent months your country seen an increase in violence and a phobic attacks foreign owned shops run sacked protests and chants of foreigners must go back to where theyve come from how worried are you about the this rise in violent racism we are very worried. And they have been statements not only from the president himself both in south africa and in a neighboring countries for instance when you went to president mugabes funeral he took the opportunity to apologize and put a perspective on what had happened it was not only foreign nationals that we killed many South Africans were also victimized in that public violence our minister of International Relations has actually been having a meeting with all. Embassies or am ambassadors really say that youre worried you say the president s worried and yet a. N. C. Ministers have kind of helped escalate this crisis you have the deputy minister of police a couple years ago saying we foreigners of taken over the city centers in johannesburg he said we fought for this land we cannot surrender it to foreign nationals but then the Health Minister blamed overcrowded hospitals and diseases on foreigners this is the kind of far right xenophobic rhetoric that we see in other parts of the world leading to violence this is not helpful we nor recently at a meeting we had as the National ExecutiveCommittee Led by the president in the top 6 weve all our branches in johannesburg discussed this issue and we took a leadership position that said we must correct whoever is involved so you say you say when i want to Branch Leaders did the a. N. C. Premier of how david macor did he not get the memo because he said this year some specific crimes are committed by specific nationalities drugs there are specific nationalities how do we have so many drug guns that are operated by nigerians is that helpful rhetoric when people are being not heard fooled by this also true. Its true whats true in certain cases people have been found to be guilty of running on a jury isnt this is sam nigeria literally. You said there are many South Africans also im glad that you can where you stand on the one hand youre saying we shouldnt single them out on the other hand youre saying its true what he says when years im out it is true when it is true its true but i do condemn a statement that makes it sound like all nigerians are doing all they criminality is in johannesburg when in fact we ourselves are also involved because because they are worried are you the truth about what is currently happening is that you have a crow corrupt Police Service if you know that there are people that attack traffic in order to win something why are you not arresting them because that is a crime but you to attribute that to a specific nation ality it is enough for pick because you are basically inciting the communities to lies against for the nies because they would start looking at for the night is the people that appearing in tribes when they try trafficking is happening in collusion with the police. And do you agree with or disagree with the well meant i must take this opportunity to once again my president have turned this inside out and i think. The guests have turned to the 2 opera joys of into india and the ordinary african here or a latino with an African Heritage topologies on behalf of the sort of indians in the sport of whatever but when theres a criminal elements lets be able to point them out by race nationality i didnt say that i mean even though its a lot of human activity with respect i need to learn when former president he said in september yes the truth of the matter is that there are nigerian criminals who are involved in drug dealing and thats true. There is no South African that goes around chasing nigerians because they are nigerians is are not denialism of the problem by me give you more although as you agree with that not here i have to give you what i believe in the polls that have said what you have said but stuff test it and the report says to us now 16 people have passed away on the recent incidents that are out of the 16 theres no way of know theres no one from nigeria 14 a South African oneness or milo why are we not talking about that as facts ok let me bring is that under feinstein its not a problem theres no issue with. The 1st is that the key root of this problem of the levels of economic inequality that you mention in south africa and these have to be addressed id like these have to be addressed by our leadership the 2nd problem is the lack of accountability of leaders when they make statements like you mention from the premier of the outing province that is completely unacceptable that is the language of trump and for raj that is not the language that should be coming from the leadership of the Liberation Movement with the proud tradition and history of the African National electorate very badly they. Should stop using the live language of trump and fraud that those are hes with and im asking you if you agree with them xenophobic it is it is if it is people in your house guilty of xenophobia sam people are not all senior people some. Senior people yes. Im glad we can agree on that on that note its time for a break after a very lively 1st half join me after the break for part 2 of head dad where well hear from our very patient audience here in the oxford union and continue our discussion of the andes legacy. To strengthen the good you have to shoulder court all the more with fight against corruption. Heroes like move the refuse to 15000000. 00 brian the achievement of heroes like him to showcase by the international. It shines a light on these heroes because the best way to fight a darker use to show the way. To better place nominate your anti corruption. Is there are. They dont believe in the 2 state solution still believe in the 2 state solution we listen. It was that pakistan would never start. A war we meet with global news makers and talk about the stories that matter so does their own. Im sam is a down in the how with a look at the headlines here now just the other now british Prime MinisterBoris Johnson is urging politicians an extraordinary session of parliament to support his new braggs it deal hes described the agreement with the European Union as one that can heal the rift in british politics he says theres no argument for more delays getting the deal over the line will be difficult though Opposition LeaderJeremy Corbyn says its even worse than the previous deal that i just rejected 3 times so those who agree like me the bricks it must be delivered and who like me prefer to avoid a new deal out. Must abandon the delusion that this house could delay again and i must tell house in all candor that there is a very different appetite friends in the e. U. For this business to be protected by one extra day. Outside the house of commons tens of thousands of protesters have swarmed the streets around parliament theyre pushing for britain to remain in the e. U. Demanding a 2nd referendum protestors have begun gathering on the streets of lebanons capital as the call for political change grows at least 2 people have been killed during fridays rallies Prime Minister saad hariri has given rival groups in the government 72 hours to find a solution. Catalans Pro Independence leader is calling for talks with the Spanish Government following a day of violent protests on friday demonstrators are angry at the jailing of 9 separatists he is very wrong in catalonia as failed independence with 2 years ago. The truce in Northern Syria is largely holding this by the accusations from both Kurdish Forces and turkey of violations turkish president roger tired of the whiners warned the offensive will resume within minutes if kurdish rebels dont abide by the terms of the 5 day ceasefire mozambiques Main Opposition Party room namo is rejecting the preliminary results of tuesdays general election which says the ruling for a liberal party is headed for a major victory its back to head in head now. Thank. You yes thank you but youre watching head to head on aljazeera english my guest today is miss blake and betty former speaker of the South African Parliament former Deputy President of south africa we were talking in part one about the Political Economic legacy of a. N. C. Rule one of the low points many would argue of that period was during president tabo mbeki time in office between 1902008 his dinner list positions around aids and hiv and his refusal to allow antiretrovirals which led according to a Harvard University study to more than 330000. 00 premature deaths as someone who was an ally of president mbeki at the time or someone who was Deputy Speaker and then speaker of parliament at that time what do you say to your critics who say that he and you were effectively complicit in those unnecessary deaths hundreds of thousands of people. They were putting it maybe is if we sat and actually pull our tent that thousands of people must die no it was not like that it was a process of course and our role as parliament through the little relevant Portfolio Committee of health is to exercise oversight over what the executive is doing and it is not as though this is Health Committee was seized with the issues the whole world was trying to find out was the best thing to do and i must say that it has been said internationally that south africa we was one of the countries where the best was being tried at all times yes all times we made mistakes yes we did make me still ever have a frank conversation. About his views on the subject that led to so many deaths did you ever talk to him about him claiming not to know anyone who died of aids him saying theres no link between hiv and aids his Health Minister suggested you eat beetroot and garlic to combat aids did you have a pushback against any of that ridiculousness maybe it was not for me personally why you 2 liquor of pall of hope members in any scene was our share of the easy with Parliament Hours busy with all the busy people would years very busy when diane people were dying including in my own family but it does not mean we conspired and actually plot said that people should die mistakes were happening people who were making efforts are missing this a. Golic to here in the us is smaller than a mistake townsman can lead you call it madness and i can only call it an unfortunate moment in the history of south africa. Seems like an understatement given where our material died very very unfortunate moment and we wonder where the earth is old and our new used the language. Is come out of matt and were actually much better than we ever thought we were going to do that is true you have improved and i have led im glad im asking you a lot about is when people were dying and you didnt seem to be doing anything because you say you were too busy maybe im not a doctor i couldnt even if i wanted to could have said mr president youre wrong even in private if you dont want to do it publicly what did you do that i never had a private moment with you were on the National Committee of the i was but thats not a private ok in a room full of you and your fellow senior colleagues could have said i think this is wrong the subcommittee of health in the agency was the one that was focusing on this matter and therefore thats why as we speak today totally out of those that we were in well other people at the time were speaking up and one of them was former president Nelson Mandela he made a passionate plea at the a. N. C. National executive meeting in 2002 to lease distribute retroviral drugs to pregnant women with hiv but he was heckled by Party Members at that meeting mandela was heckled he later said it was one of the lowest moments of his career but it was a low moment for the a. N. C. Too wasnt. You dont think it was a little warm you want me to say no no of course it was a long moment i mean one witness to form a government minister and walk around at lodhi says a. N. C. Members were like of pack of wild dogs tearing at their prey the prey being Nelson Mandela only 2 members defended mandelas right to speak out found the retroviral only to what was the point made in new recording or in these about that moment what is the power how does all take us how ability years is the past yes we have since come out of there and why now do we way better than what happened in the families of the people who dont want some accountability and youre not going to get it from this woman whos sitting here tonight why because with her i dont keep my presence they did not make me have the wherewithal at that time to understand even what the debate was about because this is one of the fundamental problems of the a. N. C. As a result of your history as a Liberation Movement the Party Loyalty and discipline and unity is always put before Everything Else and criticism debate is shut down whether its on issues around corruption under president zuma or aids under president mbeki the party sticks together and doesnt say anything publicly about the bad leadership. You know maybe right now theres a commission of inquiry headed by. Deputy chief justice was on the zonder commission why we have that commission is because of a discussion of the National Executive committee of the agency and a number of meetings insisted that we needed such a commission and that is why finally that commission was created very late in the day very late of the years of zuma very late in the dad grew with you because in lets say in the gene women should finish his term in parliament no youre not telling the truth yourself now did you not say that no you never souther thats the point i was making is that in parliament we kept saying to the president president please form the Judicial Commission of inquiry so that we can get on with this inquiry into how in fact was this state capture happening and yet president jacob zuma said in 2015 that the a. N. C. Comes before the country thats a bit of a shocking statement for the present of a country to make it so he made it. Did you condemn him at the time for making way should i do agree with the statement i dont know them or not so you disagree what you prove your point why is your previous point no one will criticize me for oh no you made of the country this mechanic out thing of why didnt you do it this way why didnt you scream at that moment why didnt you shall you could have said it softly no their point though is that if a person did not it was on their way you want them to have responded so as not to mean they necessarily be agreed so you disagreed quietly ok lets go to the panel who are waiting to come in im joined by under feinstein form and see m. P. Resigned in 2001 author of the book after the party a personal journey inside the sea you are an m. P. For the 1st 2 years i think of president thabo mbeki as term is it fair to say that the debate over the aids antiretrovirals was shut down even when raised by someone like Nelson Mandela on the 28th of september in the year 2000 and becky had just been at the United Nations where he had been forced to say that he was withdrawing from the science of the relationship between h. I. V. And aids he returned to an empty caucus meeting on that day and he said i have not changed my views hiv does not cause a the vast majority of m. P. s including the leadership cheered tabel mbeki statement this was as the corrupt arms deal was taking place and the reason i linked those 2 very quickly is because those 330000 avoidable deaths the 32000 babies who were born hiv positive every year for 5 years after that according to Harvard University. It was at the time that we were saying we did not have the Financial Resources to provide antiretroviral medication but we were spending 10000000000. 00 on weapons that we didnt need because of the bribes and it speaks finally made it to the issue of accountability and this is where the n c has failed itself and the people of south africa so let me put that point to kalani color who is chairman of the south African Business abroad and a member of the and see deal with that point under 330000 us 32000 babies born a year with hiv is that a stain on the conscious not just of south africa but specifically of the a. N. C. In your view. Many things has been have have happened we feel sore about it but lets be honest about 2 things here the government of the African Nation Congress its own members that they go to a National Policy conference to discuss policies how to help those who are suffering from this disease. I think there is a perception here that the media didnt translate president i will maybe never actually denied the treatment must be given he was actually looking for a long term treatment not how it was true and involved being treated in goa well i does miss or been through it is not part and parcel of it but president was saying lets look also at the nutrition how to help or people how to look at the long term prevention under your shaking head very briefly ways very quickly i mean problem becky said explicitly that antiretrovirals kill the problem is the taboo and becky bought into the dissident science on hiv and aids and to his credit. Jacob zuma did not and ultimately rejected it but hundreds of thousands of South Africans avoidably lost their lives ok because as a former n. C. M. P. Who resigned in 27 team after calling for president zuma to step down following corruption allegations because i asked betty about whether the Party Loyalty is considered to be more important in the a. N. C. Than the interests of the country she said she disagreed with jacob zuma statement which he made in 2015 saying the seas above the country is an accurate description of how the a. N. C. And its needs behave well certainly from the experience that i have because i chose to play the constitution of the country but i was disciplined for not at hearing to the party position. Notwithstanding i do want to comment on this. I really do think that we have to meet that at its initial stages it was tragic a lot of women in particular lost in their lives and i dont think we should sugar coat our mistake we should at need but what is good is that the a. N. C. Did at some point to listen to Civil Society and they did a tear to the will of the people and hence the many lives were saved. Or not note were going to shift to our audience whove been waiting here to come in. Here in the 2nd row thank you to mila publica while the state was being looted universities were being chronically underfunded and in 2015 in 2016 the fees must for movement shook the country and put this on the National Agenda many of us suffered injuries from Police Brutality at the time in fact some students were killed Benjamin Petilla was killed at u. T. By police how do you as an activist reconcile that the policing in south africa right now by the a. N. C. Is reminiscent of the policing and apartheid that you yourself