But the way to deal with it was to get back to the table and see what you could do without before just getting out of the treaty the russian technically violated the antiballistic missile treaty by doing developing a 2nd site but we kept talking to them about it and never obligated until after the attacks of 911 president bush felt we needed a defense not against russian attacks but attacks by other other terrorist groups followed like the focus for a few moments on on china because there is growing concern about chinas arsenal many say that its not subject to any International Arms control treaties so 1st of all how worrisome is that and secondly how large is chinas arsenal nobody knows they refused to give vetoes they have a systematic refusal of transparency so that means. You cant even begin to discuss what numerical limitations would look like. Its i see estimates at this in the order of 3. 00 to 400. 00 its certainly growing but nobody knows and that says this that theres a practical problem there theres also a conceptual problem what nobody has got a convincing model of what the right proportions would be. How many should america have how many should russia have how many should try to have how many should the European Countries you click on trees have theres no concept of water and that could have all global balance would be even before we begin to think about the non n. P. T. States israel pakistan and india and what their numbers should be so theres a huge conceptual problem to be worked through in addition to the practicalities of verification and declarations andrew what about the Iran Nuclear Deal obviously the u. S. Withdrew from it last year what effect has that withdrawal had with regard to the fight against Nuclear Proliferation i think theres an instant impact has been to increase hostilities between the u. S. And iran and feels day too late were becoming dangerously close to yet another terrible misguided middle eastern intervention which will kill probably kill a lot of people and do actually no good. And i think this has to be seen as part of the weight of Foreign Policy because in the clear world also be extremely aggressive on what will stage and lean towards a Foreign Policy which has been that which has to its. Military interventionism very high and has generally tended towards going to war 1st i think we need to return to the table and its your turn to table return to negotiations because only will sheesh and discussion has to be preferable to every military engagement and some it feels like weve come very close to that over recent weeks and months and im very concerned that it is going to carry on in that direction particularly with. Current tensions between iran and saudi arabia which are becoming even worse lawrence President Trump has repeatedly announced his intention to out innovate other countries when it comes to Nuclear Weapons and Nuclear Technology but hes hes also been speaking with and meeting with leaders like north Koreas Kim Jong un what kind of message does this cynic is it all seems very contradictory. Well thats part of the problem with the Trump Presidency he is studying these contradictory messages he says hes getting out of the Iran Nuclear Deal because he would like to have a better deal but the fact of the matter is the way to do that was to start negotiating not get out of the deal and put the put the sanctions back on and i do worry about a Nuclear Arms Race in the middle east between iran and saudi arabia to me that would be you know a death devastating so this was very important and the other mistake that he made about about the Iran Nuclear Deal was saying well i dont like irans other behavior in the region whether rating has will all get intervening in the Syrian Civil War i think youve got to separate those things we separated them when we dealt with the former soviet union when president nixon started these arms negotiations and all of us predecessors followed we did not insist that the soviet union and russia completely change its Foreign Policy and i think thats a key thing that we need to to to focus on you just cant change everything you should focus on the most dangerous thing which is nuclear Nuclear Weapons and right now trump has got a 2 trillion dollar Modernization Program for our Nuclear Weapons which not only is unnecessary but will take money away from other conventional capabilities that we need paula looked to me like you you may have had a point you wanted to make i wanted to give the floor to you well couple of points i mean i think that its absolutely correct that linkage of newton messes with other concerns is is likely to lead to its a general blockage but nonetheless those are the politics of the present situation and old old these points are being made again and again in washington said cool so i know im not very optimistic that thats going to change at least on the presidency i also think that. Its important not to be too alarmist we should be concerned but not hysterical newquay numbers have gone down significantly since the end of the code cold war its important to realize that not everybody is expanding britain and france have reduced the numbers and keeping it very low levels of about 200. 00 each and modernization is not necessarily destabilizing its necessary to submarines and rockets wear out if you they have to be replaced and nobody wants to build obsolescence systems so that leads to modernization but thats not necessarily a terrible thing so keep this in proportion but do worry about the advent of new technologies hypersonic missiles are going to be problematic some of the space based systems that are being introduced involve enter interactions with nuclear come on the control which could be very the stable stabilizing if attacked so it seems to me we ought to be not only obsessing about numbers and and impossible early nuclear elimination we should be very interested about the new technologies which are which are coming in which will interact with with Nuclear Weapons in conflicts and areas and of course all of that we should add cyber as a disruptive and uncertain factor which which may break in and slow to slow down on the gate to terror capabilities at any point if not controlled so theres less to worry about but all symbol to worry about that weve been talking about and governments over the years have continued to put out the concept or the narrative that Nuclear Weapons act is a deterrent to nuclear war from your perspective is that a valid concept. If you take that to its logical conclusion that would suggest that every country in the world to the Nuclear Weapon in world peace would break a bit but obviously isnt the case. I dont believe that Nuclear Weapons do keep us safe from the idea of it not a shot was fired mccools war is a myth which the people of vietnam would contest very severely so would a lot of people are going through one of those. And its not me just constantly made that is not an argument you think can be justified because all it takes is one nit clear weapon being set off and this is where i agree with paul actually that the obsession about numbers doesnt feel particularly relevant in so far as i dont think it massively effects matters with the u. K. s 100 Nuclear Weapons were as 500 reality is that it would only take one to have devastating impacts and a devastating humanitarian cost we have to be working that number going to war to see to but i do think that the broader the broader issue to be concerned about is the direction of Foreign Policy and the political circumstances which are allowing this to happen in the 1st place lars lets talk briefly about one of the one of the signs of progress in the fight against Nuclear Proliferation im talking about the u. N. Treaty on the prohibition of Nuclear Weapons now this can really only enter into force if about 50 more nations ratify it as i understand so in this climate in this day and age is that doable. Well i dont think its ever doable because the countries that havent ratified it all the ones a process Nuclear Weapons but i do think its sending a signal that just as we got rid of chemical and biological weapons there is hope for that in the future and i think you know one of the things thats important to keep in mind is if you had said back in 1945 when the United States unfortunately used Nuclear Weapons that almost 75 years later we would not have used them i think people would have said no no no that that thats impossible so there is some optimism one thing i would like to see is our adoption up in no 1st use policy which the chinese as theyre building up their arsenal they have at least publicly embrace that and thats something i think that people ought to discuss and could have much more traction than just banning nuclear or Nuclear Weapons andrew you know we talk a lot about the threat of Nuclear Weapons but if something so horrible were to actually happen could you tell our viewers a little bit about what a good a Global Nuclear winter would look like i mean what kind of impact are we are we talking about when it comes to the impact of life on this planet and be absolutely devastating tenniss phases of people will lose their leaves over 98. 00 would be be done to italy and discriminately as well and we would be feeling the impacts not just the morning after for years and years to come as well i think that we have to be very we have to be very vigilant about france and Nuclear Weapons because the it comes of it would be devastating noons it would be something which would be felt by people of all ages people. And yes it would be truly devastating paula we only have about a couple minutes left but it looks like you wanted to jump in a minute ago did you want to add something well i wanted to run back on. A couple of things that we got rid of chemical and biological weapons have we weve got treaties banning them but very clearly chemical weapons are still being used in the middle east and its and the system which is supposed to verify in force that has broken down because of repeated russian and chinese vetoes in the Security Council we dont actually have an architecture of diplomacy and law and investigation which enables us to be sure that other people have got rid of all these things that they promised and on the biological side nobody knows whos still go to offensive capabilities so we shouldnt exaggerate what has already been achieved we should be more humble about the deficiences of our experience to date we dont have an alternative design from say the chemical weapons treaty which which would which would work magically in the nuclear case we dont know how to do this and that ought to set limits on the the kind of inflated expectations and Rapid Movement switch or being called for and if were talking about the ban treaty remember 60 percent of the human race is in Countries Nuclear countries where our alliances which say they will never sign it. Maybe theres a lot of small countries around the world big numbers of nicaraguas and better can someone to carlos have signed that doesnt mean theres a significant shift in important Global Opinion which is going to make a difference all right weve run out of times were going to have to leave it there thanks so much to all our guests paul short andrew smith and lawrence korb. And thank you too for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website aljazeera dot com and for further discussion go to our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter our handle is at a. J. Inside story for me im a gentle and the whole team here by for now. Counting the cost bodies economic failure and job losses rise and consumers tighten their belts plus stripped of its autonomy kashmirs 2000000000. 00 apple harvest is left to gloss and olens breaks it housing crisis is dealt with most of driven out of the counting the cost on aljazeera. That he has on hold americans to account. And. Head to head on a. When the news breaks it looks like if youre told in order to get someone who can get this country out of the crisis when people need to be cut. From the little cross this border area without legislation aljazeera has teams on the ground for the last few months these helicopters the elders in the streets of hong kong because the battle to win a world would lead documentaries and lighting on the air and online. Every year 50000000 tons of electronic waste is thrown away the majority is illegally dumped in developing countries right now electronic waste is the most traded as of this with retracing the tech through the criminal organizations making big profits and asking why the west is turning a blind eye. Manmade on the waste trail on aljazeera. The 1950 s. A clash of gun in the politics and a challenge to French Colonial rule. Any 2 part series aljazeera world tells the dramatic story of how modern china xena was born the little give us back our lead in sea level flight below. With a rare eye witness testimony from the man who fought the french on the ground to newseum the battle for independence episode one of the rebels on out as iraq i really felt liberated as a journalist was. Going to the truth was that i was thats what this jobs. Plan. As a process in egypt turns demonstrators. Demands president abdul fattah elsisi step down. Im out of my head in this is al jazeera life from doha also coming up on the move iran has released a british flag pole tanker 2 months after detailing the vessel in the strait of hormuz. Marching against arrests demonstrators rally in hong kong to condemn the government for detaining protesters. The government seems intent on whipping up to a. Former british conservative Prime Minister warns Boris Johnson could trick his way into forcing a no deal breaks its. Demonstrators have taken to the streets in egypt colin for president sisi to step down kinds of demonstrations are also expected this friday cafes and shops have been shots and food all much as councils and security is heightened across egypt ahead of the planned protests president of the fatah elsisi has returned to cairo from new york where he attended the u. N. General assembly has for Amnesty International urged they do is to confront him about the crackdown on protesters who egypt says its questionable up to a 1000 people and that 2000 are being held. Well Muhammad Musri joins me now on the set sees an Associates Professor of media and Cultural Studies institute for graduate studies thanks very much for speaking with us just give us a sense of why were seeing these process what exactly are they have. Or theres a lot of discontent in egypt its been boiling simmering for for some time really for years going back to 20131 sees you took over in a military coup. Carried out mass repression mass arrests mass killings in the streets more recently theres a lot of economic discontent ccs economic policies have mostly failed the wealth gap has increased and egypts poverty rate is rising pretty dramatically. In the last few weeks muhammad ali who is a former military contractor hes seen as an insider hes released videos alleging pretty grave. Pretty grave violations against the egyptian people corruption against allegations of corruption against sisi and his family and close confidant now given the scale of the arrests appears to be a 0 tolerance approach were hearing that you know some 2000 people have been detained. Is this a strategy thats likely to terrify tests at all or are they so angry theyre just going to keep coming out on to the streets were going to have to keep a close eye on it you know this regime has a lot of experience dealing with protests this is the regime was born out of protest i mean in 2013 there were mass protests for several weeks thats when the regime finally decided to crack down they killed upwards of 2000 people arrested tens of thousands of people for illegal protests and so this is the larger context and larger environment people that are going into the streets today and weve seen the videos coming out already are quite literally. Risking their lives because this is the most brutal and authoritarian regime in egypts history and do you think theres any kind of any any chance they could write this site because we do know in the years following the 2011 process the 2013 protests there was a desire for some stability for for people just to regroup and get on with their lives to try and build the economy do you think sisi can write this latest storm a process tight or absolutely i mean its still way too early to tell ive been saying all week that we have to wait and see how large the protests are and importantly whether or not they can be sustained but sisi has control over all of the institutions of the state hes consolidated power hes built himself a sort of an authoritarian empire hes calling for counter demonstrations today theyve already started in medina of a section of cairo he has his media apparatus you know so so he has control of the state its going to take a large and sustained protest movement to bring him down ok well the latest pictures were showing our viewers there are significant numbers of people right only the streets and they are certainly. Not happy i think critically understatement of the century given all that youve said. About its sisi has a grip on the state he has a grip. On the situation as it stands he also has the backing of u. S. President donald trump i guess my question to you is is American Opinion firmly behind sisi or is it starting to turn weve heard criticisms all from while he was at the United NationsGeneral Assembly did he does still enjoy the backing of donald trump well historically the u. S. Government and other western powers have supported sisi theyve also supported other dictators in the region they believe that these dictators can bring about the kind of stability that they want. Its ironic though because under sisi egypt has experienced unprecedented instability so its actually been the opposite of what the americans desire the current context that was important and interesting ccs major supporters are all going through difficulties trump is facing a possible impeachment in the United States muhammad bin said men. Are facing difficulties in the United Arab Emirates and saudi arabia respectively so ccs closest allies those who have supported him provided him with much needed money and diplomatic support are all sort of in trouble and so this is a very precarious time at the c. C. Given that situation theres no incentive for him is that it sent back to injury it makes sense for him strategically to double down on this and we could be getting towards more of a crisis when hes facing forward thats certainly possible i mean hes certainly not going to go hes not going to go easily into the night and as i said earlier it will take a repeat of the 2 1011. 00 scenario to bring him down there will have to be large and sustained protests until such time as the rest of the power structure believes its time to sacrifice sisi ok will certainly want to watch very closely its great to get your analysis that Mohamed El Masry thanks very much indeed as we were saying we are bringing you the latest pictures there from egypt of demonstrations taking place this friday where u. S. Democratic senator says congress will be closely watching sisi and has accused donald trump of impairing him. President trump has been you know an absolute disaster for global democracy causes he isnt powered autocrats all over the world at the top of that list is president al sisi the congress is going to be watching what happens is these protests unfold tomorrow we have seen what sisi has done over the past week or so locking up hundreds of dissidents disappearing many. Going to be watching we expect these protests have be able to be held we are going to hold the egyptians to account if they once again of respond with force an indiscriminate detention. By 2 months after seizing a british flies on oil tanker in the strait of hormuz iran house released the vessel the detention of the senate and pirro in july for the rest of its attentions in the gulf where the tanker is now making its way towards ensign National Waters left bands are our sports hero their own friday which was taken after being seized in july now according to see the Reuters News Agency at the ship is heading for port rushes in the United Arab Emirates our correspondent zain best ravi brings us all the latest now from tehran. We know that this morning according to port authorities in harmless gun province the robust ports where this vessel was being held it was anchored off the coast of that port we know that according to an official statement from the government at around 9 pm 9 am im sorry local time thats about 530 g. M. T. In the morning the anchor started coming up in the boat started to go on its way we saw video circulating on social media as well as on state media showing the anchor going up certainly a signal that the boat was headed our way into interNational Waters the owner of the vessel of course confirming this expecting it to be in interNational Waters shortly if it isnt already there and it is heading towards the United Arab Emirates there was also a signal from the owner of the vessel that they do have a well prepared security plan in place once the ship is in interNational Waters certainly a sign that many countries are still concerned that iran does not have the best interests at heart of several International Shipping vessels that pass through in and around the waters around the south coast of the country. And thousands of protesters are in Hong Kong CentralBusiness District and supports of activists attains near the border with china or they are in a holding sense and that has been the subject of much control over say many help there previously will need to hospitalize some of broken bones in its 4th month a process that began with an with opposition to a proposed extradition law which has not been scrapped because its a system where the latest now from syria quark he said home called syria iraq that process however things looking there. Although not on the protests started about a half an hour ago and now its up to 5000. 00 people at least i have started this is simply which is behind me and as you mentioned its in central home this particular protest it was all over concerns that this detention so there were people witnessing abuse and some of the protesters were kept there arrested will being used by. The police now overnight carrie lam hong kong chief executive said that that Detention Center wouldnt be used any more but this particular rally is one of many demonstrations we have over coming days in the lead up to october 1 which is Chinas National Day and weve got a number of protests here on saturday as well as on sunday the one tomorrow theres a Large Assembly which will gather outside hong kongs ledged of council which is effectively hong kongs parliament and on sunday we have a march and then of course on tuesday its a Public Holiday here its Chinas National Day its a celebration about the chinese of the 70th anniversary of the founding of the peoples republic of china but of course this Antigovernment Movement in this program called movement to a rally here and they certainly wont be celebrating this day john the police are gearing up for no doubt some violent clashes to happen on that day and so this is all coming after the listening session the time hall that carry law the day before. The numbers of people who are gathered there it doesnt seem like that status working will sort of thing of the protesters calling for in order to tamp down these these protests because they seem to be increasing despite efforts from the hong kong leadership and its come things to a head of national day. Of the key demand has always been universal suffrage greater freedom of speech greater democracy in hong kong as you mentioned the extradition bill it was withdrawn some months ago also somewhat so i should say but now this is morphed into a wider prodemocracy movement and we have been expecting a number of protests of certainly the protests to ramp up in the lead up to october 1 which is Chinas National Day and weve increasingly saying clashes between the probation and the fact. That we have a number of