Im a republican im a journalist of the Bureau Investigative journalism and you are in the. Life of me ok and im really going to what would you do if telling the truth meant defying your government today we meet the whistleblower who tried to stop the iraq war so share your thoughts on the matter you can tweet us and leave your comments and i live chat and you might be in the stream as well. In the lead up to the 2003 iraq war catherine got uncovered a plot by the United States to spy on the United Nations the goal was to uncover information about holdout delegates of the u. N. Security council in an attempt to force their support for a war guns largely overlooked story is the subject of a new film official secrets have a look. Maybe you can take this country to. Let me take you turn to the face value. You had nothing to do. Never believe this could you. Do you want to risk it all. Every country biggest demonstration in human history. It would be no wonder at the trial of the people when that document is long. And joining us to discuss this real life story in turkey Catherine Gunn the former British Intelligence specialist whose acts of bravery is the basis for the film in london journalist small tim bright the reporter his popish katherine. Adding Los Angeles California gavin hood hes a filmmaker and the right to official secrets welcome but it got to have so much to talk about so lets get cracking many so many facets to this conversation so i want to share one from someone who knows what theyre talking about this is marcel reaches a whistleblower summit organizer and heres what she told the story. Moore is reported waste and use thats abusive citizens abusive parents. And abuse of power who are the people who we who are and very often we who that where. We who are. Societys dont know and can become more and. People like us dont speak out People Like Us so catherine take us back to 2003 when you got that memo did you see yourself as a whistleblower were you thinking of the ramifications of it. No not at all i mean i. I didnt join to leak anything i didnt you know i never thought of ever sticking my head about the parapet or anything but you know that memo had really triggered me it was. A show of duplicity it was it it showed what was going on behind the scenes at a time when war is imminent and i just you know it was so important for the world to know what was really going on that i have to i have to bring it to the worlds attention and and i wasnt thinking how what would happen to me at all my seeing the guardian is the sister paper to the observer and because its quite recent history i could look up and see that memo still online just going to go for it here and just selling it to you he was let tell it you when you 1st read it you remember what it felt like to see it. The thing about this matter is that those of us whove been working Investigative Journalism a number of years are used to receiving documents are after the Effect People often receive or often but. When people do receive documents they tend to be documents about things that have happened what was extraordinary about this was that i was receiving apparently a document to buy something that was ongoing you know that the war hadnt happened and we had almost like a light leak this was this was. Something that was showing us what was going on behind the scenes the seem to be in total contradiction to what our politicians were telling us what and of course today in 2019 we have the benefit of hindsight i want to show this on twitter from adam jabber who says the war could have been prevented if only good people rallied at the United Nations was up to the task because this war was based on false hoods no weapons of mass destruction in iraq so of course we all know that now some people knew that back then the dad then what 1st attracted you to this story did you know catherine story. So i was i was called by my producer to dirty boat made a film called under sky with and he said dont get in if you havent heard of katherine gun and you feel like you ought to know what happened so just google and call me back and of course that led to you know the 3 years weve spent making the film i met with catherine and spent many many days with her with Martin Martin introduced me to other journalists on the story and to a very famous lawyer called bin emerson whos played by ray finds in the movie who defeated captain. But what i loved about katherine story and still pretty special is that castle youll forgive me if i say this so feel free to jump in but i think katherine is an ordinary person whos done an extraordinary thing cats not someone you might generally think of as a high flying political person shes an already person who went to her job as many of us do and in different fields and something landed on her desk but wasnt right and that could happen to any of us now we dont have to be a spy for that to happen as your whistleblower that lead us it said the person said this can happen in a corporation it can happen in a studio a law busy firm or wherever and the question i think the film raises and what catherine thrusts in our face that i have bravery is what would you do what would you do if you discovered something wasnt right within the organization for which you work would you have the courage to say this isnt right at the risk of losing your job and cast of course to risk not it using her job but her freedom so whatever you think politically theres no question in my mind but were looking at a very brave woman cathal 11 people the moment think dabbing as a director we created when you went into. That intelligence and seen in the poll found out that somebody a man must have a lot. Someone in this building has betrayed their government and their country now im sure it wasnt anyone in this division but starting today internal security will be conducting interviews with each and every one of you if you know anything will suspect anyone it is your sworn to speak if you do not and you want found to have withheld information of any kind you will be charged with a breach of the official secrets act. Catherine the film says it is based on actual events a we have for you to watch in the film this is your story how to gavin get this based on actual events how did he get it right what he did. And i guess. You are right. Just as well i mean he. He contacted or dead contacted us in here. And said you know what when can i meet you how do we get started on this id like to talk to you and so they invited me to lunch and i i went and stayed for a few well where a week or more and we talked for about 5 days he came to my staying with my family and we sat and we talked. Pretty much for 5 days i think was an hour and. And he just said is start from the beginning and had this massive love the book and he just kept writing and writing and writing page on her page and. I was impressed martin its hard for a journalist to give off one of their information but that we gavin had how did he get that extract the truth out of it. The whole point about this this whole process is that were talking about the sanctity of truth. What we were trying to do when we were breaking the story was find out what happened and hold those politicians to account so for me when this is being made into a hollywood movie it was extremely important to stick to the facts because when it when it comes to release we are inevitably going to be held to account ourselves for the way that weve told this story so i was i have to say huge relief that when i met got him and he shared my determination to tell the story as it was and you have to realize that this this isnt a conventional hollywood narrative there isnt a single journalistic hero that runs through this is very much a collaborative effort. And also we as journalists as happens hounded over the joke we handed the bottle over to the lawyers a crucial part of the film as well so all this was extremely important and i was. But i know its a got him that he was prepared to fight for that version of the narrative because i can imagine they were also difficult pressuring to tell you in a completely different way right as i say i didnt mean to jump in but i just want to say thank you to mark the casting because im as a filmmaker you know here they are back in the movie thank you thank goodness because when you go to all this trouble and youre telling a story about people who are still very much alive you can clearly see your great fear is that you will finish the film and they will say thats not right and thats the end of the move so it was important quite seriously to. Get the information from this source from these folks who would direct in bulk and continuously run the script by them to make sure that we were accurate of course its a film of course they are played by actors of course weve compressed time. A one year period of time in cancer and life into a 2 hour film but as martin said i mean the key thing here is to stick by the material facts and we have done that and and im very thankful for the dedication and support and information that martin and catherine and the other journalists and the lawyer and emerson about this case to us and when we talk about sticking to the material facts it leads people to say things like this this is on you tube someone just writing in that she is a hero and she deserves a nobel prize and of course theyre talking about you catherine so there are parts of this movie where youre protected by here and nightly so theyre badly and so beautifully where clearly youre having to make a barry tough choice but because its a movie and its dramatize the viewer doesnt always see how tough that choice was and im talking specifically about your family life your your your husband at the time who was put in a precarious situation to talk to us about what was going through your mind when you decided to blow the whistle keeping in mind your husbands status as immigration status. Well i have to be honest i didnt actually think of anybody else at the time. I had the sort of i dont know blinkered like a horse you know a bling bling because on. Which kind of prevented me from even thinking about the consequences i mean i dont really know how to describe it except that i was very very concerned about. What was going to inevitably happen it seems in iraq bombing campaigns peoples lives being destroyed you know whole. Devastation across the country and and that that was like the most pressing thing in my mind at the time it was only later when you know when i my position seemed to be tenable that i felt like i had to come forward and confess that they that. Thats when everything started. Hit me and i realized that you know i was suddenly going to be in a whole lot of trouble. After having to have to say we had a long discussion about you a violent spike and we were thinking but how does and what about a husband why would she feel has been done to the boss he was a slight and seek didnt she read enough and then we what weve seen we went back and forth about why what somebody do that is such a huge sacrifice but you said you didnt even get to even a cut he. Was a psycho oh. Good. I doubt it and i was just so caught up in the moment i was so caught up in the fact that war was imminent and them yeah and i was trying to manage and i arent and i mean i was trying to be an anonymous and i didnt think that. Even for me a husband still remaining anonymous getting take have a what caffeine fix not have an address but it was through because i think you know whats interesting about catherines point is we mustnt we mustnt forget that as she described to me what at the moment she leaked it she wasnt planning on confessing i mean she was you were rather hoping that this would you would leak and that someone would investigate further right that you say you describe and we said that in the film is that right and that you would never have you say it was you it was only when you saw your friends being interrogated so and other peoples lives you could not ruin i come in here just felt you had to step in and say so but i dont speak for 4 people good morning catherine sorry monica and i stephanie i mean yeah i mean i think you have to remember. Lou was a terror that he should she really activists or she simply wanted to get something out and had we been able to work with her in a more conventional way how do you been able to. To work in the way that we light so with our sources we would advise her completely differently we would have to trust starts told her to keep her mouth shut. But shes such an honest person that she she just felt she couldnt do that so one thing that the film makes clear but it is i think unusual by these kinds of cases is that. Classroom was an hour. After class ring did not work with us it later became i think quite important i was on the case but you know at the time we had no idea who she was. And. Lets just remember that shes not someone whos trained to do this kind of thing she was just acting coach im so glad you spoke up there martin because so much of this conversation surrounds the role of the media and earlier were talking about handing the baton over to the lawyers because there is the melt multipronged process but some people online accurately are saying it was the media that dropped of the baton in the 1st place i want to share a comment from Reuters National security correspondent Jonathan Landay and heres what he told the story whistleblowers play absolutely vital role in helping to hold governments accountable they expose corruption they expose malfeasance the expose abuse of power and they become whistleblowers because there is no mechanism within government at least in their opinion that allows them to report these abuses so they come to the media and in that regard whistleblowers play absolutely vital roles in helping the media do their job in Holding Governments accountable martin so many people recognize that now that newspapers organizations television stations were dropping the ball when it came to this story. Yeah they werent alone i mean i completely agree that. Large swathes of the media excepted the government narrative. And shame on them for doing that but thats not the job of journalists the job of journalist sister got stories and report that i have said was its not the job of journalists or take the side of the Antiwar Movement was to try to find out what was happening and report it and id like to think i had i found evidence that there was. A cache of weapons of mass destruction in iraq i would have printed that thats what thats what journalists do. But it was not just the journalists that. Dropped the ball. It was parliamentarians it was the legal system it was the diplomatic service. A lot of people failed a lot of people failed in that in the run up to the war in iraq and were still feeling the consequences not. I completely appreciate. Whats correspondent saying that. But i think that what happened is that because we allowed politicians to play fast and loose with the truth during the iraq war weve ended up in the situation where we are now where politicians really dont care whether theyre telling the truth or not and we have that problem again in person and in america let me just play the moment where that mosque and catherine meet this is just outside of the court where all this is where they u. K. Government is talking catherine to court so its a very tense moment have i want. You to do real risk no reason to miss. I think what he did was extraordinary i think when you explain this extraordinary when our institutions failed us the Government Intelligence Services the press they failed us categorically even my own paper supported the border for the night thank you for being you know thank you. Support you did. Matters. So calving the 2nd time i watched the film i could hear the music welling up and i think well thats what i was some tearful at that point so you know many have forgotten the audience but we have real facts well all 4 of those films put into our understanding of all the lead up to the iraq war the iraq war well i mean im old enough to have lived through that war and. It all seemed you know we heard all these stories about weapons of mass destruction and. Being lied to and colin powell has conceded that you know speech at the u. N. Was one of the worst days of his life and but somehow it all seemed a little above us or a little big and this story took comedian and i hope our audience will be taken into a very personal quite simple situation of it all really person katherine and i know isnt offended if i say shes ordinary. Doing her job who could be one of us ive said it before and and so it became a lot more accessible on one has sort of compelled to ask what might have happened had one or 2 or 3 other people who received this memo whether it be any say or g. C. H. Q. In britain done what catherine did imagine if just one other person at least that meant maginot 5. So when martin says that our institutions fail us and its great to hear it said to this the mets would say what he said. Rather than did you see i took notes from my journalist and put them into the movie it was very simple. But when he says that hes right you know its the press fails to take deeper but so did certain people within the Security Apparatus spell to resist what i mean in fairness you know admiral boyce all took to his great credit was demanding and legal advice from the attorney general goals from tony blair at before he would risk his soldiers being charged with a war crime well of course we now know that the vice was consistently right up until you know a matter of a week or so before that war that tony blair needed a u. N. Resolution in order to be to justify that war so. There are people who are speaking up but perhaps not enough and so its a difficult thing i mean im not suggesting that. Everybody should leak every state secret and i dont believe cat youre suggesting that you know what i admire about catherine will be interested in about cancer is that she is only ever to this one memo she hasnt even to this day told busy me he or anyone else as far as i know what else she did. That and she says she was loyal she worked for 2 years quite happily i seem cut but hes just been but this was a bridge too far as that fit to 2nd. Absolutely i mean it was a line i was unwilling to step across i didnt want to collude i didnt want to be part of you know. What subsequently has become one of the biggest tragedies in the you know last 20 years or last you know longer its a huge tragedy that has befallen iraq and the repercussion to have carried on through. The last 16 years you know we still feel the root repercussions to to this day catherine i wanted to ask briefly before we close the show on some of the repercussions for you we have this video coming from tom miller have a listen to him interviewed over 200 whistleblowers and trust a 1000 with similar experts and activists and one of the most consistent themes ive seen is no matter how heroic the whistleblower is what or how much good they do how many lives they say they are permanently excluded and blackballed from their chosen work in the future and that for me is an forgivable indictment of the industries in which they work and of society that can cheer the whistleblower in the theater as a hero but then go home and forget that in real life the suppliers lose their jobs and sometimes their families their livelihoods forever. Severe repercussions would you do it again. Yes i would i mean i dont i dont want to live knowing that i didnt do my best and you know you dont know tell you tries i tried. I just want to show you what kathleen lets back like back sam because its such an impressive. Youngster who decided that she was going to take on her government while im here talking about official secrets this is the movie poster michelle to check out official secrets is now playing in the u. S. And how that and i bring the rights of a she in the u. K. And around the world just have time to thank Catherine Gavin as of being with us on the string really appreciate your time take half away. For the congolese the journey to work all aboard that seems unimaginable hardship i prefer to live dont just enjoy i get the can to chancing life and live on a dangerous journey through the jungle. And turn onto the real freedom and nearly die. That our children go to school and live because of the trade risking it on the democratic republic of congo on aljazeera. Tibetan culture a dance thrives here every day generations of tibetans continue to brace and theyd take their Cultural Heritage its a reminder of who they are and whether. This is a suburb of the idiot capital new delhi to be refugees here since 964 buttons here have been defined as migrants are not refugees because india hasnt signed up to the 1951 Un Convention on refugees so tibetans here have been able to access the Indian Welfare system so they become selfsufficient setting up over a business says and looking for work independently but for some its not enough. Rewind returns with a new scenery and brand new updates on the past to down to serious documentaries received. Its. Just. Rewind continues with saving silhouetted seeing the light 10 years later the plight of your average person for a community in south africa is no better this is a great motivator for us to keep giving back to these communities on aljazeera. How about im christi paul in london with the top stories on aljazeera it has been another momentous day in british politics Prime MinisterBoris Johnson lost his parliamentary majority one of his m. P. s defected to the pro e. U. Liberal democrats johnson has vowed to leave the e. U. Or not the 31st even if it means crashing out without a deal but dozens of m. P. s including some from his own conservative party want to stop that right now theyre debating a motion to prevent or no deal bracks is and will vote on it shortly if theyre successful johnson has suggested hell ask for a snap election the barca reports