Kind of web fueled violence be stopped radical hate by investors spread over the internet have often been followed by killing sprees government and Tech Companies are coming under mounting pressure to take action is that a correct balance between censoring violent content and maintaining freedom of speech this is inside story. Hello welcome to the program. From the weekends shootings in the United States to the mosque attacks in new zealand and many more besides they are all linked to websites which allow hate and radical speech the suspects thought to have sat manifestos before carrying out their murderous attacks they didnt use browsers we all logged into every day but a deeper darker layer of the internet where you can hide your identity and location be anonymous and difficult to track the subterfuge raises questions about the responsibility of Tech Companies and websites to control what can be posted governments are also exploring how to regulate the internet the u. S. President has highlighted the internet danger following saturdays shooting in el paso a case 20 people were killed after hate filled document against hispanic americans was posted online the shooter in el paso posted a manifesto online consumed by racist hate in one voice our nation must condemn races. Bigotry and White Supremacy these sinister ideologies must be defeated hate has no place in america we must recognize there the internet has provided a dangerous avenue to radicalize disturb my eyes and perform demented acts we must shine a light on the Dark Recesses of the internet and stop mass murders before they start lets take a look at the recent attempts to counter online hate speech following the mosque attacks in new zealand and france presented whats called the Christ Church call 18 Government Support of the nonbinding pledge aimed at eliminating terrorist and violent extremist content online the Us Government declined but all major american Tech Companies signed up to it Facebook Twitter and you tube have banned many accounts linked to fake news and hate speech following the attack and Network Provider block the endless message board a chan the Walmart Shooting suspect is the 3rd this year to upload hate filled documents before the attacks. Lets bring in our guest in washington d. C. Brian he is a professor at the American University and fellow of the center for analysis of the radical right where has that is extremism and Digital Technology in berlin car alliance in the Online HarassmentResearch Fellow at both Harvard KennedySchool Foundation in new york ryan broaddrick is a Senior Reporter for bus feed news covering platforms and web culture welcome to all brian took us through what could possibly be the best way to and online hate speach. Well its somewhat out of our hands theres a vast array of pressures public pressure financial pressure and Law Enforcement pressure that are as you said pushing these sites such as 8 chan further and further to the margins of the web 1st we saw extremist groups being banned from mainstream social media as a response they began to develop their own platform clones that mimicked sites like twitter and facebook but these clones relied on their own set of Internet Web Services to provide protection and hosting as were seeing however after of events such as the pittsburgh synagogue shooting and now the paso walmart attack the companies that provide these services are themselves severing business allies which is leading the extremist media ecosystem further and further to the margins of what we might call the regular internet and at a certain point i think that these pressures of public outcry financial pressure and legal oversight are apt to force these groups as you said on to the dark web and when that happens and i think its a question of when rather than if we absolutely have to have strategies already in place to avoid seeing this past week owl of the reason why i ask you this question about the whether there is a a way to end this boys an oiler is. We know what is happening and who is involved but this whole people question is about whether there is a lack of political will for government or is it just purely a technical issues the has to be overcome before moving forward thank you so much for that question i think its a mixture of both and lets take a step back and sort of look alist to be at the problem and working as a researcher in Civil Society its it is harder to begin to even try to critique the technical infrastructure of social Networks LikeFacebook Twitter etc because there is not a lot of transparency into the deeper designs of those systems and we think about content moderation i would say though major mainstream platforms like facebook and twitter actually do have pretty good hate speech policy rather its its seeing it acted writ large across many different. Across me Different Countries there is robust hate speech laws here in germany and we do see that someone affected more on twitter there are examples to people changing their location on the gaming streaming platform twitch to be able to to germany to filter out different kinds of hate speech and sickness really what i think is important to sort of look at this moment is it is hard to provide i think suggestions or a Clear Pathway forward when there is such little transparency into content moderation systems that are analyzing things like hate speech. On the opposite side i think its also hard to sort of call for regulation from country to country this is where i think when we start to look at different policies are being passed in the European Union in the inside of parliament g. D. P. Are is something that looks extremely hopeful right the way that were starting to look at how content being regulated inside of a space like the European Union we could potentially see Something Like that around speech and content moderation with the one thing i do want to one thing i want to quickly highlight though is facebook as a mainstream platform is quite different than. Chan which is not a mainstream social network and it is important in these conversations possible he wise to separate those 2 we would go more in details about what should be done of the Legal Framework and example set by other countries brian h. And has become the focal point of the for those asking for the flow of this hate speech to be destructed all line an h. And allows for unmoderated community which basically means that you can go there an enormously and do whatever you want to do and post whatever you want to do from a technical perspective a please to someone like me or to our view is its simple shut down the platform of their choice over right the issue is and i want to point out something that i heard earlier said on this program which is that. The idea that this might be some sort of dark wherever some sort of fringe of the internet its not a chain is a pretty basic website its you go on to it and you write whatever you want and then people write whatever they want and thats the whole thing any website can radicalize the way ajahn did its not like facebook or twitter or instagram that has an algorithm thats moderating content or has any real moderators at all its its just a website its just a Comment Section so from a technical standpoint theres nothing particularly malicious about it its just that because its so free and open its you know a huge draw for extremists content and for radicalization but theres nothing particularly nefarious about the website itself it was started as a message board to talk about anime. Bryant so is the technology the way to tackle this issue because with faced such problems in the past you shut down h h n n h n could move towards a new spinoff or other companies would step in so were back to square one this is my question as to brian sorry yes. Yes if theres a technical solution to this i think it has yet to be engineered i think that really the best hope we currently have lies in civic watchdog groups and to the extent that its illegal for the government to oversee and investigate the content in the users of this than that strategy although governments hands are largely tied and sometimes with good reason. Sure one thing i want to highlight i believe im not i have to refine sort of what brian and brian are both saying. The thing about a chant is its true it is its a board based communication platform we could call it a social network it is just comments the thing about it is it has almost no moderation rules outside of posting copyrighted material or child pornography and thats what makes it different than 4 chan which its a clone of 4 chan and i believe is 2013 started passing rules around oxegen harrar harassment related to the Harassment Campaign game or gate similar with reddit which has read a kit and has a specific kind of rule structure its not always an active but what they do have are content policy and terms of Service Agreements that exist inside of those spaces i think its more fair to group 8 chan into the space of the daily stormer and i bring that up as an example specifically because in cloud flare his blog post they mention both Cutting Service to the daily star and Cutting Service to chan these werent websites that existed on the dark web they exist on our clear web on our actual internet and they will reappear back on the clear web they will probably find some other Service Provider but whats important is that google has delisted for example Google Search results to a chance before their takedown and i believe them to the daily storm or the amount of friction you add for a regular user to find these sites is important and this is what the i think the term and the idea behind the platforming is so important ok it will make it harder for people to find the site you make it harder for for other people to be radicalized and to join the boys and thats likely important argument here mrs brodrick youve been sort of the fact that the line between whats what was considered to be full if 3 inch social media platform the mainstream 18 the problem is the protected by contend delivery and Security Networks and these different. It is within the whole spectrums saying basically that we dont have a sense of clarity about how to move forward and ultimately we cannot afford to be in the in an uncharted territory its up to the government and to the other International Organizations to tell us what should be done before we can step into this new to made thats right and its similar to the conversations that happened around moderating isis about 5 or 6 years ago that i think a lot of these private companies are waiting for government bodies to step in and say ok this is what legally constitutes White Nationalism and this is our federal policy on it the issue that were seeing and were probably going to see this start pretty soon is that you can knock down each and all you want you can remove services from it. The poison that infected it isnt god its not going anywhere i think it is safe to say that the internet is a more radical and more polarized space than it was 10 years ago in fact this weekend there was a 2nd shooter who was heavily involved in the grindcore Punk Community he was a you know person who would share lets say far left or any fascist material on the internet thats not what radicalized him you know thats not what happened to him its that you have a generation of an incredibly angry men who are using the internet to socialize with each other in completely unmoderated spaces and as long as unmoderated spaces exist the male violence that were seeing in not just america but in every country on earth is going to continue and i think that every time we have this conversation about can we knock down a website with some sort of technical fix well we need to talk about what the technical fixes for a generation of men who are carrying out this sort of violence on a scale that like we dont seem to want to deal with and i think that seems to get blurred in the conversation every time we talk about this sort of thing because i think talking about moderating security infrastructure for a chan is an easier thing to talk about and it requires less soul searching to say here is i mean if you look into past experiences the e. U. Along with the main Tech Networks companies particularly Facebook Twitter and you to have signed a code of conduct in 2016 the german up assuming a very aggressive policy if you dont flag up content within 24 hours you might pay a fine of a could amount to Something Like 50000000 euros and the french are saying sorry sometimes we need companies to hunt the Digital Identity of some of those people who are spreading that online otherwise you might face problems why arent the americans doing the same thing. Well the American Government at least its hands are somewhat tied as well these these Companies Like 8 chan are protected under whats called section 230. 00 of the Communications Decency act which essentially states that so long as they dont edit and dont care rate their content as long as they only provide a neutral platform then theyre not legally liable for any of the content that flows through it except as as was said before for child pornography and previously copyrighted material i think that what is happening in the e. U. Is an excellent example that the United States should be seriously looking at and following and the Tech Companies in the United States should be voluntarily adopting some some of what happens on the internet follows whats called the california emissions effect where cars the metaphor is that cars built in california have lower emissions so therefore cars all over the u. S. Have lower emissions the standards and practices that Silicon Valley undertakes have a way of die fusing outward and becoming larger standards that Companies Use international ok so i think theres an appeal to the conscience of these these corporations that has to be made to the extent that they can be reached by the same time this is my question to cut a line you have critics saying that the caveat to this new codes of conduct the have been established with that over the last few years is basically they give the Tech Companies need more say over deciding what is legal and not legal this could further undermine the freedom of expression is there any middle ground over here. Just a note im not a legal scholar but i always hesitate any kind of argument that is sort of if we do x. It begets y. Because lets work with specific case cases here and in the case in this very example were not talking at all Tech Companies were talking about a channel were talking about a site that has had issues with child pornography were talking about a site that has no almost no come to moderation tools and has almost no moderation rules this is a very different website than per say Facebook Facebook does have robust policies on things like a speech and Online Harassment but again its seeing it and acted at large the bigger point here and problem i think to highlight and i think ryan is the one highlighting this is why how is this how does this keep replicating and happening in spaces like a chant in 4 chan what are what are the ways around it what are what are the rules around it and i think its important to look at not just how are we defining hate speech though that is an extremely important part of this conversation and its important to think about when we define that hate speech what is to be done about it what is the systems meaning that its one thing i want to highlight for example when reddit had the sub read it right which they removed in february 2017 that the on the sidebar describing the rules of that sub write it because each side read it like fortune and h. And the creator can be the moderator they specifically called themselves promoters of white identity and White Nationalism no one falls into White Nationalism accidentally its not a thing you ironically are its a political ideology of the far right it is serious it is about the supremacy of of the white race might identity and theres nothing ironic or the entire about that and i use those words specifically when we start to look at the subcultures unfortunate each and then deal with irony and then satire is also important to highlight we start to look at things i through an american context american relationship to things like freedom of speach. Miss a broader there is a new trend in the u. S. In particular the house is pressing in different parts of the world basically about which is why it not sort of the 6 trim is im using different ideologies different. And raising of the issue that under threat by different ethnicities and other. People of color this seems to be a divisive issue in the United States of america dont you think that because of his it of its nature people dont seem to be all over board about the need to say clearly that the biggest problem that the u. S. Is facing. Is White Nationalist extremism yes i do agree with that i think. Right now in america it is incredibly complicated. To have that conversation to to figure out where the line between what we think of as traditional conservative values separates into the far right and then lets say the far right separates into White Nationalism which i would consider more extremist but this conversation is happening not just america its happening in every country on earth and i want to make a really important point about this it happened across europe over the last 34 years you saw this in france in sweden in germany in the u. K. But its also happening in asia and Southeast Asia its happening with internationalism of the Modi Administration in india the things that were seeing with each and right now it happened in south korea with a message board based or house or in japan japanese nationalism and the message board that inspired 4 chan which is to chan or need chan these issues are in demick in almost every Online Society on earth right now and i think that having these conversations and focusing on one particular country is what we kind of trip over every time because what we could be doing is what were kind of doing right now which is talking about how Different Countries are facing this problem and maybe if america was a little more open to acknowledging the. There is a problem and theres a problem is one that everyone is sharing we can Start Talking about how we can address it on a systemic level that can actually start to fix things. Mr heres the reason why were were talking about the need for the u. S. To step in if you remember back into after the 911 the americans were the forefront telling the world that you know want with al qaida and with isis later we need to take action particular with draining the resources of these groups online financially to be able to defeat them and we see what happened and later now it comes to white. Nationalist extremism New York Times is talking drawing parallels between the 2 between isis and White Nationalist extremism and they are saying why in a way or another why are the american doing exactly what they did with isis and al qaeda and therefore they might find the answer to the questions the face. Yes. Islamist extremism and White Nationalism are actually very similar in a lot of ways particularly in respect to angry young men radicalizing each other there are 2 reasons why the United States hasnt been able to go after White Nationalist terrorists the way it was able to go after al qaida and isis 1st of all. Its there are no legal designations for domestic terrorism there are certain designations that allow Law Enforcement to investigate what could be domestic terror groups but because of the political implications the government doesnt recognize domestic terror groups in the same way that it recognizes foreign terror groups. At the same time one of the reasons why the United States government cant go after far right extremists is because the beliefs and the rhetoric that these extremists are espousing is very similar to the beliefs and rhetoric that are on display every day by this president ial administration and many on the right in congress one of the issues with moderating. White nationalist content online is that many of the algorithms that were applied to say isis or al qaeda cant be applied to White National i see your point because they would sweep up too many mainstream republicans in the process of the for this i would like to us to the same question to caroline about whether its fair to say that while theres the school about the need to clamp down on the those individuals on the fringe others saying basically we should be targeting the role models the politicians leaders who came to espousing the same ideology well shes now becoming some somehow in a way at another a mainstream not even different parts of the world the world the u. S. In particular but also now getting to and in europe. I think the right and that that has been definite definitely an argument i would say the bigger thing when i think about mainstream social networks drawing a line right between mainstream social networks and 8 chan is that there isnt a lot of transparency around when content is taken down why how when it violated a policy and thats the same thing if you look at Richard Spencer david dukes twitter accounts right david duke being a grand wizard of the ku klux klan why are their twitter accounts online still that is a very good and profound question of which there is not a clear answer from twitter and their policy team thats something i would love to know the answer to why do those accounts stay up another accounts are taken down. I think its important to also highlight as well. Again why is it mean to self identify as a White Nationalist and to Say Something on a more mainstream platform for example i do believe buzz feed reported this that they facebook is going to take down White Nationals or White Supremacy groups facebook groups but some of those groups still stand i believe that was from an article from a couple of things to go to a year ago but these are deeper questions to actually and i do think perhaps we should come back and focus maybe on Something Like a channel for showtime were running costs i had no policy was definitely but as of this issue with you in the near future things to brian whos carolines and brian broaddrick and thank you 2 for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting a website dot com for further discussion go to our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com full with slash a. J. Inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter a 100 is a inside story from me. The whole team here in doha by for that. I. 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