Being returned to libya its putting them at homes risk same by this strike that libya is not a safe place for these people to go back to why are they being forced to go back to libya. Well i think i think this is one of the arrangements that have been done with the new libya between the i mean the only being. A few years ago and. Especially with the Italian Government the new Italian Government about 2 years ago and the arrangement such that the any migrants who are taking off from libya shores. Will be if they are caught somewhere in the way towards europe specifically if they are within the libyan territory waters there will be sent back to libya and then the. International really organization for migration along with the libyan local authorities are supposed to care of them for a while and then reprocess them in some way and rode me to try to convince as many of them as possible to send them back and then actually they had been you know kind of regular of flights taking back migrants with their own countries but the problem here i guess is. That that would not so of course solve the migration problem there will always be migrants in libya and fortunately there will be more and more tragedies like the one we saw today and last night actually be as long as there is a conflict they are the always the if one there will be one they are the area underdogs and there is no there is no way to stop this unfortunately its a very tragic event but that there is no other way to prevent that i mean theres no actual way the other thing is theres no you know if i had correctly there was some kind of argument between the guests before i join you you know that that death to probably decide can be blamed on that side or the streisand i doubt this story if there is any any any either of the 2 sides that libby them softer originated for. Militias are actually doing this deliberately its very far fetched idea most likely what theyre using is. Conventional weapons you know with very kind if used in specifically random shelling as war bombing like the case. Seems to be and no one who would be a 101 somebody at the end of day for this tragedy i mean did there were there would never be any kind of independent verification or investigation of whats really one for one and who is responsible for that just like many shows so many other tried it is we have been you know living with the libya since 2011 who fortunately but need to speak 2 months old. There is a there is a resolution to this if you go all the parties around the table and had a peaceful resolution a political resolution then these tragedies would stop happening why is that not happening why is the Peace Process seemingly detail almost every opportunity. Because i did not decree different perspectives here i need basis and i let not tell you my perspective look at it so i do and i think a large number of individuals in without my part of this the country would more than say i am a secularist i want a separation of church and state and im not willing to live under 10 centry i do not unfortunately you have so much dominated by precisely these people so i mean. The incompatibilities is so clear that is and every day is becoming worse and worse and worse then not to give up their point of view and these are going to be mugs point of view i mean ultimately i mean i have to say theres an and i dont i dont favor it but ultimately if it might lead to the breakup of libya thats if people are free to live the way they want to if they want to be. And its not mixtape they want to have it or. Be my guests have the ocracy we dont suppose this is this is this is the this is the heart of this issue the heart of the issues that they want to impose upon these a certain form of government this is basic this isnt youre going to see and at last in london theres no Common Ground says our guest inside and so on yet theres no way these parties can reconcile is that true. Thats a shame that what hes saying is actually saying that in that is far more dangerous and i think it comes down to a narrative that has been sold over the last 8 years that an in a region of 385000000 people in the middle East North Africa that somehow its either going to be the generals or its the chaos and tyranny of isis and thats seems to be a very narrow way of looking at the world and its we should call it what it is dog whistling because in the west and in europe at the moment there is this rise of populous that also view the world in that way that arabs and muslims cant be democrats or they cant do secular democracy of they cant live under the kind of rules or set about the kind of values that we want and the only people that can do that are apparently the secular and the only secular is there available the army is the militaries of either algeria libya egypt potentially even in tennessee and excellence in the next so i think thats a really bad argument to make and i think its not one that holds truth. And the 1st of the matter is after is not pursuing if you had a 60 severely him a dog whistle and try to tell everybody in the world that hes proceeding so if you had his but if we look at the chaos and anarchy in the carnage that was wreaked upon the place that is telling is that he lives in from and thats where he represents the east of libya benghazi that the birthplace of the revolution a quote unquote care a terrorism operation that was conducted the displaced 800000 people from benghazi and 100000 people the International Media were referred to as isis or isis families by the l n a spokesman at one must mahdi but in looking at media were referred to as turks and jews because theyre from a different ethnic tribal sect and a rather different ethnic tribal group ing from the civic tribes of benghazi that most of them or the majority of them led the revolution or or established some of the on groups and that was intolerable to the group after holds today the bedouin groups that are now in control of the houses and i think thats what we should also be focusing on in his 2nd operation in that in that we were told that it was al qaeda that were in control because that group isis not if i have that so we can call them isis so we have to call them alqaeda in that city at the end of 201830000 light seen a quarter of the population is either dead in jail or displaced that doesnt sound like a narrow catto isnt it to me it sounds like a fight between the local citizens of that of that place and if you look at the groups that if i have to used to lead the offensive that came from the bordering towns the bedouin bordering towns of n. Mandala when they left after the campaign they spray painted welcome to the new model over the name of that in there in the city so lets not dog whistle and call people terrorists because its got real life implications youre concerned about the polarization but you are using a word like terrorist terrorist isnt just a normal word its a pejorative term and it green lights drone strikes green lights wholesale executions of people and thats what weve seen about housing to please i would i would argue and urge months or to use less polarizing language and to call things as they are. Months old ok can i just very quickly watch your response so dont put words in my mouth ok i did not say i paid terrorists i didnt even bring up the would of terrorists i didnt see any of that were going on the total truth youre living in there are 0. 10 or theocracy. You are you want to quit your prosy with terrorism im not you do that. Ok you dont have to make things that the us a country lets pray in the letter e. Mail us your thoughts i really have my stuff i want to come see you in paris now there has been a complete disagreement between our 2 guests in san antonio and in london i just want to get to the heart of the thought that there seem to be very eerie 2nd irreconcilable differences here how do we get these parties to the table to talk how do we keep libya together. There is gnome there is no you know magic to do this there is no magic way there is no easy way either i am one of the optimistic verses i would like to see. Stable nimbys for libya and i always wanted this time to have been true some guy in the political and business of broaches but unfortunately the fact is there is no there is no other way than violence to stabilize libya and bring back the country. That im not im not defending anybody. Any any party to the current conflict around tripoli i am not to blame in this side or that side but eventually there is no other way and the reason i say this under the blue frailing circumstances which have i mean politically socially and security wise which we had been living with under libyans i mean since 2012 under these circumstances there is no there is no other way to bring about anything any kind of stability in libya unless with violence i mean somebody has to beat somebody out of the battle this big this going on me i fight is the mother see me more than its really Something Different that im not sure sort of myself i thank you very much for that i just want to say what youre saying is that they need to be a fight to the death a fight to the last man standing. Let me start with you. Do you agree with this is about a strong man reemerging you already had one of those in colonel gadhafi doesnt need another strong man. I hope i really do hope more than the last thing i want to see is libya falling back into a dictatorship if were to gives good that we have 40 years because he was about to take that data is not that what im trying to tell you has been simple im trying to tell you that ultimately the libyans have to decide what they want to beat those who want to be had to have an Islamic State they can have is the state they can be free to do what they want to do those who dont can be as one said to me is the catholic nottage is really not we can we can we can then we can get to get kids of that you can check the public as go that are public this is the role that we have been here that i bought. And us in london i just want to bring you in to have. A strong man needs to realize thats what weve heard what do you think. I think its simple i think honestly to go back to the policy oriented or solution oriented way forward is that we need to look away from the National Level of political elites that are trying to strike a grand bargain with each other or would actually separate the country between 2 or 3 different states a look at the local level a lot of the riff that emerged not only in the last 23 months of this conflict but as most of a has rightly pointed out since those 11 stem from this kind of polarizing dehumanizing language that puts one camp in one area and says either for example if youre a deficit that somehow you have no right to the country and you have no right to play a role in the country and you have no rights to to govern locally in the way that it ought to govern the country or if its that day in those on my team or were talking about if we dont like this group will call them feel a theocracy if their protests or well call them islamists or call them terrorists or call them jihadists that kind of language is not going to be good for anybody going down the line and what libya desperately needs is a reconciliation process along local tribal lines or an ethno tribal lines or a city states in regions that would include things that are practical so it could be a power sharing agreement between different tribes that are full of that since those 11 it could be a reconciliation process among some of the groups that have fought since those 11 but we have to abandon that really polarizing language and learn to live with one another and thats where we are certainly running out and going to have to stop you there because i do want to come to new stuff in paris our guests are saying there are options it doesnt have to be violence it doesnt have to be strong and just very quickly are you still convinced that there has to be a violent solution to the conflict in libya. Well. Its not that i am convincing you know im convinced or believe in wind and sound as the only way but theyre already said you know under dbu freighting circumstances that we have been under since 2012 for actually there is no other way and the reason i say this how could you conduct a beast full day log among the equal libyans in the conclusive lucifer brosius you know and like the road member bows by mr science and amodio and then war under the attractive militias an arm of the groups dont regardless of their ideology even a criminal groups who are cutting the roads who are extorting and who are kidnapping to be able and for ransom and so on and so forth how could you do that sorry we are at a time gentlemen thank you very much and thanks to all our guests stuff of authority. And ask. And thank you too for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website aljazeera dot com and for further discussion as well Facebook Page thats facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story and you can also join the conversation on twitter handle is at a. J. Inside story for me imran khan and the whole team head by for now. Vs your problem is something which is a geopolitical issue as for Governments International institutions to manage and refugees dont have the right to walk freely on the other hand boards and will freely as far and as much as they want its a new multinational colonialism this is a v im not and over the democratic process these companies they just want the money europes forbidden colony episode one on aljazeera. Im sorry is a dam and how they look at the headlines here in aljazeera now the un now says there were 2 airstrikes on a Migrant Detention Center in libya which killed at least 60 people it says there are also reports guards shot at fleeing migrants and refugees after the 1st attack the Un Security Councils failed to agree on a course of action in libya after the bombing Alexei Obrien reports behind closed doors the Un Security Council discussed how to deal with the deteriorating security in libya but those talks are believed to have been fruitless as media reports suggesting u. S. Diplomats refused to approve a statement condemning tuesdays attack and calling for a cease fire the meeting was called by peru its ambassador apparently frustrated by the lack of a comprehensive condemnation. There were refugees migrants. On them that we havent agreed. Maybe well have a statement but we are still discussing it about 150 people were in the Migrant Attention Center in tripoli when it was hit by an airstrike and what the Un Refugee Agency has called a preventable tragedy the uns mission in libya says the attack could constitute a war crime the secretary general calls for an independent investigation of the circumstances of this incident to ensure that the perpetrators are brought to justice it is important to note that the United Nations had provided exact coordinates of the Detention Center to the parties libya has been caught in a power struggle between 2 rival administrations to several years of violence escalated in april when forces loyal to warlord Khalifa Haftar launched an offensive on the capital the un recognized government says have forces out of blame for the strike for the government of National Accord denounces the horrible crime thats been committed against the Detention Center for Illegal Migrants into giora the took place last night carried out by criminal aircraft this is a definite crime in every respect but have to reject that allegation his Spokesman Says they were targeting a weapons depot controlled by an armed group allied to the tripoli government. We were surprised to see the false claims that the migrant camp was targeted the syria houses no migrants and no libyan civilians the weapons supply coming from misrata came through this point therefore we destroyed a legitimate target of our enemy if the claims are true they brought those Illegal Migrants to that area on purpose analysts suggest the uns failure to take action against the have set a dangerous precedent not being able. Or. Even condemning that aggression by a warlord that in itself. Is a sign you know is happening at the United Nations level people smugglers have exploited the chaos in libya which has become one of the main departure points for african migrants fleeing poverty and war trying to reach europe by boat Rights Groups say a United International approach is needed both to end the conflict and ensure migrant safety alexy obrian aljazeera talks are to resume between sudans opposition and the ruling military jointer on transferring power to a civilian government the military has agreed to demands from the opposition to release prisoners and restore the internet negotiations collapse last month after Security Forces raided the city in protest killing at least 100. 00 people russian president Vladimir Putin has arrived in rome for an official visit youll meet italys populace government for talks that are expected to focus on italian and russian relations and bilateral cooperation than oil tanker is being held in gibraltar on suspicion it was carrying cargo bound for a refinery in syria which is subject to e. U. Sanctions british marines and local officials stop the ship in the u. K. Territory along spains Southern Coast the imposed an oil embargo and several other sanctions against syrias government last month the news continues here and after witness stay with us. I asked jamal for the french translation of the title of my film. Africa is correct here a prize. Is an exercise. That relates to childhood. Initially its empty and then you feel. Yes jim all right feel instead of fail. I came across the exercise book in january 2008. In a dusty backyard in bangui the capital of the Central African republic. It contains id photos of women children and men as well as records of what congolese messines had done to them in 2000. The book was created in the aftermath of these crimes. When the victims refused to remain silent they turned to each other and decided to testify. And put together evidence of the brutality they had suffered. Since then this book has never let me go. 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