The hunt for whales japan has resumed commercial whaling in its waters despite global outbreak but is the practice commercially sustainable and course of the Cultural Roots of boiling in japan and is culture a justification this is inside story. Hello and welcome to the program im peter dolby whales were hunted to the brink of extinction until 1986 when a group of countries agreed to temporarily stop whaling for profits which turned into a Semi International ban however conservationists are now worried the species might be facing a similar threat many countries continue to hunt whales for what they say are scientific purposes and japan which is one of the leading commercial whaling countries is now resumed that practice in its waters it says whaling is part of its culture and can be done in a Sustainable Way but as mariana home explains japanese pallets and tastes of moved on. For more than 30 years the International Whaling commission has been locked in a fight its job is to protect whales pushed close to extinction it 3 countries Norway Iceland and japan have pursued the right to hunt them late last year japan argued there was scientific proof some species had recovered enough to allow sustainable hunting and it pushed again for the 9906. 00 ban on commercial whaling to be lifted when the whaling commission rejected japans proposal japan with the true japan says it will only hunt in its territorial waters not the open seas of the antarctica North Pacific where it has until now been hunting for Scientific Research and its not clear whether theyll even be a market in japan for the whale meat the ships bring to shore consumption in japan has plummeted from around 200000. 00 tonnes each year in the sixtys to just 5000. 00 tonnes each year over the last 5 that could be due to the changing tastes of a new generation but changing attitudes to hunting whales a likely affected tune and things that the International Whaling commission wont be different japans departure has arguably lift it weakened but after more than 3 decades fight of the commercial whaling its now free to concentrate on what it was originally formed to do commercial whaling is now back on the list of threats to the worlds whales but there too is a Climate Crisis thats already adversely impacting the oceans and marine life within them a looming threat that could well eclipse them all. Ok lets get going lets bring in the panel joining us today from southampton in the u. K. Ken collins Senior Research fellow in ocean and Earth Sciences at the faculty of environmental and Life Sciences at the university of southampton in tokyo michel. When president s of japan sing at sioux newsagency and in bristol also in the u. K. Mark simmons senior marine experts at the Humane SocietyInternational Welcome to you will michael penn in tokyo 1st time in 31 years more than 3 decades whats the point well the point basically is to keep a political constituency happy. There are some small towns along the coast in japan where the economy is this largely based on whaling and these small towns have political. Politicians who represent them and they are influential politicians so its more a batter of the fact that theres a lot on one side of the issue in japan but not really on the other and the pro whaling side politically is stronger can call ins is it enough to say its cultural well potentially yes but i question that there is the demand no one thing that avoids much attention as a fact or a 2nd shooter poll culling all smallish attentions which are outside such as dolphins poll percentage which are outside of any International Treaties month simmons in bristol does this give the government a longer term exit strategy because they can get away from the situation of subsidising what is you know when it comes to profit and loss what is a very expensive industry to maintain. This is a very strange situation that were now in weve had decades of argument with japan about its scientific whaling and now its turned from that to this overt form of commercial whaling and its stepped outside of the i. W. C. And thats put it in a position where detractors can turn around and say that youre a youre a pirate whaling nation so this is a very awkward situation and it creates sort of poor relations or it exacerbates poor ready lation zx between japan and other nations and raises issues of course about animal conservation and welfare ken lets talk about that idea of signs what is the scientific benefit to whaling if there is any benefit at all i dont see any. One of our problems with a Marine Environment to today is that we have lost a lot we are losing hand over fist our large predators so im not talking just about wild sharks large large fish such as the big kiruna and removing any big predators from an ecosystem is is disastrous and so i mean in africa we could rake remove the elephants and the lions and that has a knock on system for the health of the whole eco system and i think if her same is true of the oceans there is a role for large the large predators wait in the system and we do not need to why oh mate. And japan certainly doesnt and i doubt if this resumption of commercial whaling will increase consumption in japan anyway mark in bristol coming back to you on that point of Scientific Research what is the research that can only be carried out on a dead whale as opposed to the research that could be carried out on a living whale. Well weve now moved beyond a point peter where japan is actually arguing in favor of its research whaling so this is in effect forgive the pun a dead issue but what they did argue was that there are things that they can only do with dead whales like examine the stomach contents and there are growth rings within a black sea earplug which would help to determine their age so they made arguments that they needed to have that kind of information for some reason or other but many of us regard the last almost sort of 30 years of research whaling as simply a cover for commercial whaling and now whats happening is that they are going over the earthly commercial whaling so the science arguments of course if you kill animals you can measure things so you can get papers and you can publish things and im sure ken would it would agree with that but on that issue of the big predators that he touched on in the 20th century millions of whales were moved by industrial whaling and what is most worrying about japans move in in many ways in in an international sense is if they go ahead and do this with other countries follow and where we then move back towards some unregulated model strum of whaling michael put that in Historical Context for us because mark is touching on a generally historically accepted fact in the after world war 2 there was a need to have lots of high protein food because people were starving and japan had been at the sharp end of that particular conflict. Sure i mean there it historically speaking whaling did have both a cultural and Economic Impact on the development of a lot of maritime societies i do think that as your other guests have been saying i dont think this really much disagreement among any of us that that in fact you know today essentially its not its not something thats of vital and from an economic point of view its clearly in japan and i think probably in the last remaining way whaling countries are a dying industry but for nationalistic and political reasons it carries on in japan for at least a while longer but its probably on its last legs even here but staying with that idea of that was then this is now for a 2nd michael the reality is according to the latest figures that ive been able to find from the Japanese Fisheries Agency that your average person in japan consumes 40 grams of whale meat per year i mean you know as an as an exercise in profits and loss this is this is a loss leading industry. Yes and thats one of the interesting points about this japan is moving back into commercial whaling at a time in which you know me commercial means profit it means business but its a very bad business to move into because the japanese people are not eating a lot of whale meat anymore and its the extent that they are its often driven by politics in the local regions not nessus not by the dietary habits of most japanese now there are some bars where whale meat still might be served to some customers but its not its not something that you know you find in every store around japan or is eaten by every every person can collins in southampton this particular parts of the fishing industry globally in the last 12 months has lost 15000000. 00 thats how much its gone into the red if you will it in its who ailing bank account on top of that the government to tokyo subsidizes it my point is this is that a any other part of the fishing industry any place in the world that is either losing money at that rate or is subsidized at the same time by the relevant government well like i mean id like to bring up. The icelandic experience because iceland is a small. Whiting nation and. Actually driven by the curiosity of tourists so half the while scorching iceland is actually eaten by tourists so eating. 2 or struck here yes what this while meat tastes like come in and there is the deep non down. Not for sesa taste simply. Out of curiosity and. They empty whiling a lot be in iceland say meet. Greets made 8 me. Visiting tourists on why oh so were hearing cheer mt more in as. Night night to tourism people people absolutely fascinated by why i wish. To actually see them several they were shocked pay for fascinated by the big sharks actually killing them is a ridiculous weist of a Natural Resource michael penning so here is that a valid argument in your opinion and does that argument get any traction any place in japan i mean the industry the eco Tourism Industry that can collins is talking about globally is worth 77000000000. 00 every 12 months so if it goes from being food tourism you know rather than eat something that tastes like very greasy chicken when its cooked properly go and see the whales in their natural habitat and they can then swim off and do what whales do right well fortunately that kind of eco tourism whale eating link has never really developed in the case of japan to the extent that foreigners are involved in the whaling issue in japan at all its as activists against whaling and in fact you know the towns where they where the whalers are to some extent you know bar anybody have very Strong Security services looking for foreigners who are who are there to as they would see caught say cause trouble about the whaling or Fishing Industries so the people who are eating whale meat in japan generally speaking are all japanese at i have heard for example that you know the politicians have wanted the School Children also to have it as part of their you know lunches and things like this in order to keep the next generation that continues to eat whale meat so but this is all basically. Based on a political lobby not on a Tourism Industry that feeds on whale meat mark in brazil when you talk to people who are involved in this industry old theyre involved in the the and quailing low b. If you will you get the sense that they might say will actually the whaling countries that they kind of undermining their own image on the global stage yet. You know absolutely i mean its quite interesting that. That the whale watching industry in iceland is is now very big and very successful and that the people of iceland i think of started to change their positioning that there is not going to be any whaling this summer this this whaling season in iceland which is actually quite big news that just came in a couple of days ago and was kind of sort of pushed out of the media because of the big news coming in from japan which of course is moving in entirely opposite direction there is a small amount of whale watching activity in japan and there is a i think growing interest in the japanese people but as michael has said very clearly whats happening is that this is about the government of japan and what the Prime Minister and his key advisers and supporters want to do and they are essentially moving to a new strategic position with whaling which is coming out of the International Whaling commission which is the internationally recognized body for the management of whaling in the conservation of whales and in doing that they are just setting this very very bad example for the rest of the world because of course its a time we talk about fisheries resources or we can talk about any other living and Natural Resources its a time when we need countries to be cooperating and working with each other and say what japan is doing is just rushing off in absolutely the wrong direction Michael Paine in tokyo trying to unpack something for us michael it seems to me here that what were talking about is this mix of National Politics and National Pride and it would be a very tough sticks and local politics as well right so it would be a very tough Prime Minister who took on the whaling low b. Because of that kind of iconic place that they represent within japan or maybe ive got that completely wrong. Well i think you see it in politics in almost every country where you have a lobby even a relatively small one on one side of an issue but you dont have a very well organized lobby on the other side of the issue which means that that group even if theyre not terribly big or well financed can run the National Policy because theyre not meeting organized resistance and i think thats pretty much the way that the whaling set up is here you have these local governments and local politicians some of them a very key and the ruling party and theyre pushing for their local industries to continue their whaling and on the other side comparative to International Opinion the anti whaling movement in japan its very small its a handful of people essentially when there are protests a so and thats certainly not politically. Mobilized so from that point of view its simply that if youre doing politics youre a politician on one side you can gain some supporters and on the other side youre not going to lose any because there isnt much force there can is this in one sense good news for the whales in as much as we seem to be talking about a fading slash dying industry that politicians at the highest level dont really want to get involved with bucks because the industry is expensive and requires little Big Government subsidies sooner or later sooner rather than later the industry will cease to exist anyway. One hopes. One other fact to put in your question how incredibly cruel and painful and slow death is for the wilds because youre sort of fairly random a shooting a grenade into into the back of a while an exploding and then eventually it dies and there is no quick humane way of killing a while or so on animal cruelty. Basis you know even if you really dont know why oh mate there is no humane why of slaughtering my own mark in bristol is there another dynamic here that maybe spills the end of the industry around the world and including in that assessment norway and iceland too i guess in japan youve got an aging population a falling birth rate youve got a Younger Generation who want to try other stuff and as we said in our introduction their tastes their palates of moved on. You know i think the i think the Younger Generation in japan are much more like the younger people in the western world they want the same kind of things are interested in the same kind of things but i think this is very much in the hands of the Leaders Within japan those people as michael said who are supported by their political constituencies where this is an important political issue for them but i dont think theres any way that they are preparing for the industry to die in the industry has been subsidized in various ways linked to the socalled research whaling for decades and im quite sure that the Prime Minister and his friends his allies are going into a new position now where they intend to make this work they intend to make this ng this industry continue and as youve as we are straight i think very well from this discussion at the root of it is a commodity whale meat which is not of any importance that average weight of 40 or 50 grams per individual person in japan is like half an apple a year you know this just hasnt got any economic or or or nutritional significance to the general population there will be a few communities where its more commonly et but beyond that really this is just something which creates so much problem for japan all around the world and its done a very strange thing with this latest move michael you were nodding there listening to mark bristol staying with you in tokyo is there a silent minority of people who if it came down to put in a cross in a box i guess would support the whaling industry because theyre and t. And t. Whaling industry people because they feel theyre being got at because they feel perhaps no somebody outside japan should not tell us what to do. Well if i was to characterize the majority japanese position on the issue of whaling it would be indifference it simply does not part of their daily lives and and that their its not something that they they see a lot on the media here its just not a concern but there are 2 points i think are worth bearing in mind about this change one is that the compared to the commercial whaling that had been done until recently now were good actually the amount of catches of whales the amount of whales being killed by japan under this new commercial whaling programme is actually far less than they had been doing under the socalled scientific whaling until recently and within the within the i. W. C. And another point is that in a sense the mask is off now you know japan had been pretending for decades that it was about science it was about Something Else now in a sense there theyve been outed and we now know that its about business Money Politics so in that sense its also something that damages their position can in southampton what are the chances that a japanese Prime Minister does quote so i used the phrase advisedly does the right thing and lets loose Market Forces on the whaling industry because surely if you let loose Market Forces the industry ceases to exist of course yes i mean a pay no show its a subsidies for decades and. But we see say theyre surrounded around the world having a climate issue aged and you know i say wait wait joel from the Paris Agreement not wanting to control its Carbon Dioxide similar sort of thing driven driven by law passed ross and then science no wishing to put words into your mouth mark simmons in bristol how much longer will this industry carry on being i guess a touchstone of National Identity. Im not sure it is a touchstone of National Identity i think its important to some people its important to some communities and when the fleets were launched just in the last day also we saw a lot of activity an interest in japan and of course thats part of the campaign in favor of it and its worth remembering that japan has put millions of dollars millions of pounds millions of yen into its campaigns over the years to maintain this this industry and i dont think that the Prime Minister is going to move away from that position so i dont think we can put a sort of timeline on this at all and im also quite sure that japan is watching to see how the west rest of the world is responding to what its doing and thats going to be very important and i think a strong response is required so certainly organizations like my own have been calling for a high level diplomatic response so that japan understands that going whaling outside of the appropriate International Body which was set up to to manage it and which at this time is still maintaining its moratorium is absolutely thats the wrong thing to do and on the numbers issue that michael brought up if i if i may peter. Michael said that the numbers have have come down so its been quite difficult over the last couple of days to actually work out what the quotas look like the initial quota figures it seems didnt cover the catch for the whole of the year and so were now looking at a catch in the North Pacific of Something Like 383. 00 whales altogether which is certainly more than was being caught in the North Pacific on the research whaling but where i can i can agree with michael is that the other research whaling program which was in the Southern Ocean which is being closed down that was catching 333 minky well so weve lost that but these are very early days and were watching these quoters and trying to understand how theyre being calculated very carefully and intriguing point to end discussion today here on inside story can michael mark thank you all thank you to our gay. Yes they were ken Collins Michael pan and mark simmons and thank you to you too for watching the program you can see the show anytime again on the website aljazeera dot com and for more discussion go to Facebook Facebook page facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story you can also keep the conversation going on twitter our handle is at a. J. Inside story or you can tweet me ill tweet you back im at peter. And me and everyone here on the inside story team thanks for watching we will see you very soon. The pages of this exercise book cold unspeakable memories compiled testimonies a victim is a congolese mercenary. As this intimate evidence finds its way to International Courts the Central African republic is plunged into further tumult and intricate tale of a people and a nation crippled by recent history. Afrikaans part 2 of a 2 part series on aljazeera up. 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