Its been 20 years since nigeria turned its back on military rule and embrace democracy 2 decades on and theres a regular pattern of Violent Attacks the economy is stagnant and youre lucky if youve got a job so what if any has been the democratic dividend for nigeria this is inside story i explain. Below and welcome to the program im Martin Dennis i was 20 years since military leaders in nigeria stepped aside and they allowed for a president ial election that led to civilian rule the last few years old been particularly challenging for africas most populous country of around 200000045 percent of people live in extreme poverty Economic Growth has slowed and Government Forces a battling armed groups like boko haram sara cairo reports. An image of modern nigeria gleaming skyscrapers and young people on the move but a lot has changed since 1999 when nigerians are allowed to vote for a civilian president after 3 decades of the clues and military rule. Following. President mohamed who bihari was reelected for a 4 year term in february he won just over half of the ballots voter turnout was at a record low at 35 percent a study last year found that only a 3rd of nigerians are happy with their democracy and nearly 3 quarters believe politicians are corrupt under biharis leadership nigerias a comic growth has slowed significantly to to just 2 percent millions of young people dont have a job in fact the official youth Unemployment Rate is 36 percent and its estimated that needy 87000000. 00 nigerians live in extreme poverty the highest in the world widespread rectories the shortages are common too and then there is the ongoing battle against armed groups such as broke her arm that continued to carry out attacks in the north. After 20 years of democracy many nigerians believe they deserve a Better Future sort of inside story. All right lets introduce our panel now in edinburgh thats in scotland we have only owen whos lecturer adults with universities African Studies center in london we have adam again a former information director at the Economic Community of West African States better known as eko west really welcome to you both thank you very much indeed other let me start with you because i know youve been on the continent for so long you were there at the time what was the democratic dividend supposed to be for nigeria how was the nigeria supposed to gain from embrace in democracy. Called the trial it was when nigeria was at the certain point. A pariah nation that was the time of the of a shiny g. M. And when overnight in the 1998 a brush up past the week and at the same time do so called do we know of the democratic election of june 12th 1903 mr at euro should also pass the way it was said in a Nigerian Press that this was a divine intervention that would give nigeria a chance to start afresh that was a time when overnight mr jenner abdullah a bucket became the president of nigeria and decided to start the fresh opening up nigerias democratic process and this was organized by the military to get out of the process and what used to be called the media takes the role of military in politics in nigeria and thats when the electoral process was allowed to go through and on may 29th 1990 i recorded that vividly it was a new day we did it action of adventure obasanjo sort he was pulled out of prison and allowed to run anyone the election the nigerians expected democratic process to usher in a new era of liberty or freedom of Economic Prosperity tour of nigeria returning to its position as the leading essential mission in african continent right it was then right that case i think with the lets lets come to the latest adam a lets come to now in just a moment let me go to ali ali was it maybe rather overly optimistic of the nigerian people to expect that embracing democracy would allow for liberties for freedom for even prosperity. Well i think as the most rightly pointed out the date tomorrow june 12th is hugely significant because that was the day originally nigeria was supposed to return to democracy in 1903 in which the military an old and thats what were actually commemorating tomorrow on that day and what led to democracy in the end was the public protesting against the nominate it was people fighting for this industry it was people pushing for Civil Liberties to keep the democratic space open people got killed in that struggle just as they did in the apartheid struggle people like delegate were people like. Who was the wife of the candidate who won a journalist were killed student protesters were killed so Civil Society really pushed for that transition and the military reluctantly accepted it but what happened after transition really was that the people who really pushed for it didnt necessarily russian and occupy the space instead people who were kind of closely related to the former elites to the old way of doing things quickly rushed back in and democratize themselves so actually the 20 years since nigeria returned to democracy has been about people trying to fill in that democracy with popular participation and still reclaiming its a work in progress right adamant so 20 years quite clearly in the case of nigeria is not a very long time in order to establish. A firm and solid democratic structures and institutions absolutely i think that it was far fetched dream of nigerians to expect that overnight the embrace of democracy would allow their country good to away from its difficulties and to start a new day this didnt happen because there is traditions were not studied and like all who said the people who took over was the same kind of good that had been prospering under the military rule so. It was said and it is still argue that you cant to build a democracy without democrats the people who came to take over from limited to the they had made a deal with the military but when it took over their warm sure that they wanted to make a money out of the new dispensation and thats what we saw the people who took over they become the city rich in this occasion is still i think playing a game is the role of nigeria as a leading democracy also the Civil Society and the actors admit democracy really do to be something accepted by did not get in the military and the world at large they didnt play their role in accompanying the democratic process for instance the Nigerian Press i recall i was there then. Not not just that are tough because information but also later on at the consultant for the Nigerian Government military regime to accompany toward civilian regime and i actually coined the concept of democrats today for may 29th 1901 i recall that the media that played a key role like the group then there were no way to be seen this seemed suddenly winning like this do you and other media institutions and other political actors they seem to be comfortable with the new dispense right of civilian and if you dont really act as proper watchdog to ensure that democracy was really the right has delivered the goods that were expected from it so only then is it unrealistic to expect a true and. Established and rigorous form of democracy to be able to establish itself in a country that doesnt have the institutions doesnt have the practices doesnt actually have the culture the democratic culture that is necessary is it im realistic to expect that democracy can take hold in 20 years. No not at all i think 2 things one is that there is a law in nature and culture in nature in every day culture that supports free speech democracy participation people making decisions between themselves and accountability theres a lot there in that tradition is have very long and healthy tradition in nigeria tradition of civic politics and Community Politics theres a long tradition of Party Politics and much as people might be dissatisfied with the way that things are going and its a work in progress theres no question that its on a path to improvement one of the landmarks i think was when president buses or fell out with Vice President in 2 q in in the 2nd term they fought that battle through the courts actually and that consolidated or i said alis using the constitution instead you should only use a youre saying its much better i mean for the average nigerian im not so not so sure that thats the case and weve got the data the data suggests that Economic Growth is is much lower than it has been in the last 10 years we we know that unemployment is up and just the provision of electricity ali is spasmodic to say the least about one half 50 percent of nigerians have access to electricity so how is it improving for nigerians. So this is 2 separate questions one is your question about elections and as i was saying thats been getting steadily improving if you see the way that it was done at the under morris you i nec didnt even have voter numbers didnt even have numbers on the on the ballot papers so the Election Results were just made up in 2015 you had an election result that really played through now the 2nd half of this question is about how that translates into policy one is about making sure that you can get rid of a government you dont like thats the basic condition of democracy the other is about making policy that listens to peoples concerns and thats the 2nd challenge democracy isnt just about elections its also about prioritizing what the public are trying to tell you about the pressing everyday concerns whether thats Economic Management services or any other things and if you want to look at the changes in those things actually look at the subnational level in states of nigeria where some governments are really listening to people and really making a lot of difference on the ground in terms of services in terms of infrastructure in terms of development and in other states such as we recently saw in carlow where theyve decided to go down the role of political thought so actually theres a lot of difference within nigeria talking about just one picture doesnt capture all of it right is a vast country of course an adam i mean the the label defective democracy has been used for nigeria as well as some other countries that have gone through the process of of trying to establish a democratic system but clearly there are flaws is a flawed democracy better than none at all. Look you cannot complain about something you have been yearning for for so long african countries for many years who are unhappy about more no cross see across the continent about or talk about leaders who didnt take care about the willingness of the people to see towns formation at least to have freedom of speech but the type of democracy we have had across africa including in the you know have not has not been root through democracy democracy as you said is not just about going to the polling board and vote its about ensuring sanest in the distribution of the west in nigeria for instance you have one of the biggest iniquity in terms of was a distribution few people are physically rich one of the vast majority exteriorly poor so as a reserve what do you see people do not go to vote during the last president ial election of february 23rd we have witnessed hardly certain 1000000 people voting out of 80 over 80000000 registered voters in a country of 200000000. People since 2003 the peoples of number of voting people is declining so this is an indication that this type of democracy is not providing what was it but that from each other could the same thing you see corruption that rises absolutely adamant either in senegal. Thats a thats a view that ive personally have heard increasingly coming from African Voices and only coming here i mean salif kater the well known mali in musician i mean hes had a hit added his voice to the whole debate saying that actually democracy doesnt work for african countries and what africa needs each african country needs is a benign a benevolent dictator with was the phrase that he used i mean do you agree with him. I think thats an extremely dangerous thing to put on the cards because thats what militaries across the continent have used as their excuse and justification to step in and once they step in and this you know those powers the benevolence goes in the dictatorship stays i think its a really really dangerous kind of impatience i think much as it is an unattractive prospect pushing every little bit to get better and better yes i agree in the nigeria lections this year turnout wasnt fantastic partly because the public wasnt massively excited about 2 candidates whove been around for a long time in their scene before so its more about getting fresh faces in those fresh faces dont have to be a choice between the military or politicians whove been around for a long time its also about other people coming up and showing what theyve got to offer indeed i mean there is an alternative model isnt there something in between having military rule and having a fully fledged democracy and that is the autocratic leader as witnessed in somewhere like rwanda where paul kagame his government composed exceptionally high results excellent results in terms of all the barometers of development but of course when it comes to civil and individual freedoms much less. Yes thats the type of. State that was developed not just in rwanda but in the east asian model in countries like singapore in took a walk in korea and even under china today under the jeep ng and even to be that approach of a. Strong man at the hand may be appealing to countries where civilian democracies have turned to be really good up to democracies but we have to be very careful we did limit is that we have gained we have to ensure that new minted them because you can have both sides of the process and im careful about just not copying what mr comey is achieved in this country because the room for that that kind army has been running a country that came out of a genocide that killed over 800000 people in 1904 so you do not take this edition of. Rwanda and bring it like we need those kind of a new dish if we see it stronger than everywhere in africa this will appeal to military people to come back to power this was a day if you remember the old you know of african independence in 1967 early seventys when the militaries decided to enter into the political sphere fia in across african countries thats what they used to say we need to see this coup the nation we need to bring discipline in order but at the end of the day they fade and thats why doing the democrat decision in 1989 in the wake of the change when that happened in Eastern Europe and in their times of democratization across the world after the cold up. Of the bidding war thus was the moment when the military was asked to return to the barrack as an but as an exchange to allow the civilian to come and property mothers day resources and the democracy the freedoms across the nations in africa that was a deal that was not unfortunately respected by the civilian who took over they turned out to be worst than the military but since despite all odds we need to maintain our efforts at democratization because the military is they have the duty is to protect the nation to ensure that they can have in some right engineering civil rights walk across the country but not just come and run the country they need to be under the leadership of the syrians but in latin leadership who can put ahead the interests of the countrys current of the union and ireland will hit the nail on the head in you hit the nail on the head that and i didnt you because ali what is lacking so pervasively across the continent seems to be this this kind of inspirational leadership that might give democracy a real chance is it the leadership thats lacking. No i dont think i think the biggest mistake you can have while thinking about democracy and development is to put this all about leaders you know to fetishizing leaders as if theyre coming messiah as the going to come up with all the answers actually the safeguards of democracy leadership is part of it but so is active citizens its vigilant citizens its people who participate as citizens and make demands for accountability if people are so disillusioned that theyre just prepared to sell their vote that shows what they think is rational in this situation if people are going to make demands about what they would like to see from the leaders then youre going to get accountable leaders its about how people to participate the 2nd thing its also about is about the institutions in the structures so in nigeria for instance there have been a lot of reports which havent particular progressed very far on constitutional reform on taking all of these eggs out of the one basket of centralized powers another example would be the Police Reform bill that was just put out way the outgoing Nigerian Senate which talks about devolving power making the census apparent accountability a bit closer to ordinary people so that not everything is concentrated in the not everything is concentrated only in the hands of a president or state governments its also about participation and thats kind of every day democracy thats much more important to how communities run how service is run to peoples expectations than just waking up in the morning expecting a leader to do the right thing right ok would you agree then at this particular point as we look at 20 years of democracy in nigeria would you agree as some analysts a pointing out that there seems to be a bit of a slide away from Democratic Values and that the continent is moving away and losing patience if you like with the process and perhaps turning their sights to this the strongman form of leadership in a way from democracy as we would as we would define it. Absolutely did is the tendency of people getting disappointed with democracy and in the absence of the protection of the state across the countries protecting people providing for the basic amenities the well i think what he needs what easy need for us this type of democracy some of the yearning though for the type of her whole busy rule where you have a live as done some strong people who can come a disciplined initial protect it against the the the type of forces interlocked forces violences extremists that are appearing across the continent from monday to booking a fossil to the northern part of nigeria like what a lot of people are saying we need a state that brought a cause we need a state death to provide for some common goods like roars defense sovereignty some of those aspects but that is not enough i think that in order for whatever we want to achieve we need to have couple of states because type of leaders that are vital thats going to deliver the results the type of state that you have seen in china or in singapore or in that taiwan and others are states that are comparable led by people in light of noticeable that knowledge they are there is anything but that many Human Resources that many people would argue that human freedoms and Civil Liberties a very very restricted in those very countries you mention but only coming to you now what role is there for former colonial powers for instance for the the great powers of the world i mean in the past the americans have had this a campaign if you like of encouraging democratic practices on the african continent i think we could agree that under President Trump theres been. A lack of interest should we say and left pretty everyone is pretty much left to get on with their with whatever they want to do do you think that this is having much of an impact to the could turn things around. I mean i think one of the things to say about the relationship between the the western powers or as as you said or and africa is that you know right when populism is on the rise dissatisfaction with democracy and the liberal model is on the rise in europe in the u. S. Just as much as it is in african countries you know you can see the election of somebody like trump as the exactly the same kind of yearning for this kind of charismatic you know leader who seems to have all the answers just as it is with putin or just as it is in many african countries so i think that you know those political events in the west demystified western democracy a lot and made everybody realize that you know Public Participation in democracy is subject to the same challenges in the same physical winds all of the time i think the one role that. The International Community has had in a lot of countries where democracy has been a difficult to entrench is to help keep space open for Civil Society but to try and 2nd guess what countries should be should be choosing is the kind of path towards institutional consolidation is not the role of the Global Community its to make sure that the oppression is rampant and its to make sure that democratic space is kept open for dialogue but really the specifics of a dialogue theyre not for the rest of the world to decide theyre for a country to decide for itself all right adam are give the last word to you weve got a minute k. And i just want to get a sense of how optimistic you are otherwise having observed the transition on the continent for many many countries at least into democracy how optimistic are you that it will really take root and benefit the people. To a certain extent a democracy. And i believe that democracy is needed in africa but im a bit of this a mystic in the sense that what democrat of the as a lot is new form of control of our countries by. External forces take the case of senegal where somebody came over night and the owner and the guard of synagogue signed for him without the knowledge of the people this is no democracy and in other places across africa you have people who come to control from afar our missions we have this form of democracy that is there but this is not true democracy and our people are not involved in the money as human of their did today life Public Policies are decided without them if you want to order democracy to be intension africa we need to be serious about it return to the drawing board and sit down about the best supply that we must implement in words not in words only but in deeds in action and death is not the case so democracy is a very serious proposition what we have seen over these past 20 years all right even more because its not since not its you know and has not been to democracy we need to be serious about it and africa must play a key role in making sure that democrats becomes a part of the proposition of because weve forward in destructive for centuries great were out of time thank you both very much only erin lecture at Oxford University is africa study said it talking to us from edinburgh and im a gay as always good to talk to you talking to us live from london and thank you as ever for watching the program if you want to see it again you can go to our web site out there dot com if you want more discussion you can get our Facebook Page that facebook dot com for slash a jane side story and theres a choice its fair because our handle is at a. J. Inside story im at dennis thank you for watching the program and well see you can see. Germanys birth varian alps where stunning scenery is playing host to europes latest arrivals. Separate in origin. Share a common roof and together the dream of a german future. Welcome to german cafe vald left a witness documentary on aljazeera. Aljazeera where every. Hello im the star with the top stories on aljazeera and large crowds have blocked the main roads in hong kong as they gather for a 2nd day of demonstrations against a controversial extradition bill youre watching live pictures now from just outside the Legislative Council where politicians are expected to hold another round of debate on the proposed law which could see suspects being sent to Mainland China for trial sarah clarke has more from hong kong. There are allowed 60 hours of debate and supposedly reportedly this suggesting next thursday will be the big day as for whats happening today will be a number of protests from both sides were expecting the probe aging camps to come in as well as a prodemocracy groups but given that the vote is likely to go in favor of the government and this new extradition logan