And many European Countries recognize their independence serbia russia and china still have not those are the headlines youre up to date were back with more in half an hour but right now its a front. Facing realities growing up when to do you realize that you were living in a special place a socalled secret city getting to the heart of the matter what is activists to live in jail just because she expressed herself here their story on the top down to zero at this time. When the arab spring protests were through the middle east seven years ago demonstrators across the region were hoping for democratic reforms and even the overthrow of local dust spots but is war torn libya really a better place now without its brutal dictator colonel gaddafi and how did bahrain become the forgotten revolution and up from special. Libya remains a mess the country continues to grapple with civil war humanitarian crises foreign interventions and the threat from i saw this week a panel of u. N. Experts said a political solution in libya remains out of reach in the near future so looking back was the nato intervention in twenty eleven to topple colonel gadhafi in the midst of the arab spring a mistake well continued foreign intervention from outside powers bring more harm than good and whos to blame for the violence and chaos on the ground thats produced such a massive refugee crisis joining me to debate this a half and ill go ill call him mr arab news and former senior fellow at the Atlantic Council in washington d. C. And. Former deputy Prime Minister of post gadhafi libya thank you both for joining me in the arena last of a given how many problems libya has right now Political EconomicSocial Security do you have any regrets about supporting the original nato led intervention in your country in twenty eleven to topple gadhafi i think i think we are very. Patient are much higher than they should be because when you have people been living under forty two years of oppression you dont expect those people to be able to make a better to become a Democratic Society in a few months and thats what has happened so what is going on today is really we are paying for the legacy of the regime so no regrets about not only allowed no i do not because maybe if the intervention of had been libyan. Could have been killed thousands and thousands on the hands of gadhafi how for you were an opponent of gadhafi for a long time where do you stand on the intervention was it a mistake to get rid of gadhafi in the way that he was got rid of and everything weve seen since i think it is a huge mistake and i think both libyans and the world is paying for it consistently i disagree with most of on several issues one is that talking about and i was one of the opposition talking about his intolerance of any opposition was quite a long time ago in terms of history it was in the late seventys and eightys we also on the world all you know can attest to this that could that these policies have changed dramatically over the last ten years so just secondly just to be clear than just to be clear for the sake of our viewers youre saying that gadhafi who was a brutal dictator brutalize his people for several decades it would be libya would be better off if he was still in power today without a question because without without a question because it was a civil war between two sides of libya and two thousand and eleven there were and still are significant tribal presence that is in support of gadhafi and loyalists and loyal to him the fact that nato and europe intervened on behalf of one side against another theres not make it a revolution mostly because there was a revolution because it was a civil war and outside powers no it was a revolution differently because because those people who they want to the streets in tripoli in benghazi at the beginning and then in tripoli in other cities they are really they coming out really against your pression that they have lived under the tyranny they have lived under for many many years i think the intervention by the United Nation to need to is really to save the libyan lifes and the intervention really happened because of that would have been said that libya would be better off today under gadhafi as you are someone who was in the post gadhafi government whats your response to him though. It is its not i mean clearly from one aspect you can say it is it is better off because people there were living under oppression he does have some security but security that serves gadhafi himself with the libyan people but no really we have taken several steps towards making the place but about again yes i mean security is not a great in libya notice it is improving slowly but it is not ideal in that sense but also the same time libyans have taken some steps that will not go back and that they were able to do some real elections complete you see you say you say not great not ideal summer so youre kind of under playing how bad the situation is on the ground oh yes dozens of different militia groups in different cities competing for power you have i saw turning up for a while running one of your city is the making of gadhafi himself he is the one who took these criminals out of the to prison seventeen thousand of them he is the one who distributed weapons to everybody because he wanted to. Have a response to that that this is the legacy of gadhafi unless its easy to blame the outsiders i dont know. What gaddafi did seven years ago were coming up on eight cannot be blamed for impunity you know as you infinity most of us had for decades he was in power falls its only been seven years in the grand scheme of history all about at the time to the defending at the time but the same argument that they used to blame get that we can be used today to blame what happened in the last seven years so let me also say that to most of us how are things improve for ordinary libyans have that experience i mean clearly people are far more free to express their opinions they are not i am still try to know i am in the United States if i go to you ill be ill disappear within twenty four hours so during thirty years of you stepped inside the country i would be how you can tell its socio national in india for thirty one years so i know that but to answer your question completely i am against that but once you have a government that is reforming and moving in the right direction it doesnt take a brain surgeon its not get daffy who did it. It was the system around them that was improving and moving to the right direction so seven years would have been enough to see some results but what we did is what we spent as a lesson out of our list of recommended i also thought it was one of the reasons he keeps challenging you saying everything is worse now you are deputy Prime Minister of postwar government yes there supported the intervention in the war i did tell you tell your fellow libyan whats better in libya today what is the result what do what is better in libya today is that a former libyan be able to start enjoying some of their freedoms yes that is the conditions that we have today it is it is a legacy when we get there he was toppled there was no institutions in the country to be able to carry all of that you know little narrow by a militia that you yourself know what it did not my ministry they disagreed with your policy how much security and freedom of speech does that reflect no thats the truth i mean i have been kidnapped but thats never been to this case here its kidnapped by a militia to settle things that better a place of solace at least devotion to the cold snow it is because really i have been going to gadhafi for thirty some years ok and the changes of the death we did the deal and they are going to geneva because really they were started to lay the ground for his children to rule the government with the next fifty years the only army there its the militias of his children they are not there is no real libyan army that the irony is necessary it is a france today for election so if gadhafi theyve got that if he runs today for election all probability is his will and he will win the no evidence what is your idea about quite a few monitored for example the social media i dont know why but there is a label in libya watching the show might say its easy to say in the u. S. For hours it was a horrible life living as roddick tattling in a matter good of any risk every little years of adelaide today but sort of security economically politically liberal voters or thats what were trying to debate today is thats a legacy of at our feet or is that the fault of the peano nothing else is the fault of the people who lead. What this are brazing a lot of them were from the gadhafi regime themselves mahmoud jabril. Most of our d. G. Among other idealists are we all of these guys they are the ones who did not put libya on the right direction i think you may develop most of it i mean first of all those people why they are doing it because those this institution they were oppressing them for so long then when the arab revolution started the clearly defined maybe they can handle this let me let me let me know what level they are the globalization let me ask you this outside powers have played a big role in libya both the original western led intervention nato the United States britain france but also today egypt the u. A. E. The taking sides different militias with funding and arming militias which is what is the solution to that is no it is what it is is that the intervention from those countries really is the one which is causing the problems which is going on and it is see it is when you were deputy Prime Minister what was all those countries know at the time it was very different it was the i was there in the first year so you know it took support from any outside no not really but never never did and that time it was a see that much better time because really there was some progress has to be taking place unfortunately i think what happens later on when the country becoming stable those countries clearly they have different agendas for it because first of all they wanted anything called the arab revolutions because those regimes in these countries they are dictators and they are afraid of a country which can be democratic can be prosperous which is and also wealthy which is libya so they have done everything to solve they must be afraid that look what happens when a dictator falls it turns into a mess with all that and i can buy it but theyre not exactly. Though they are a loser in libya or they are the ones who they have contributed to this mess and theyre still funding it and today i mean if you look at the surely you can see the point of it if libya were left to the libyan still for libyan people it would be in a much better place again you are giving a pass to other peoples and cause problems two things one is yes the disco. Jews have never interfered with the Libyan Government directly but the problem is theyve always interviewed with militias that so says all of us because if we did intervene would be a better word second i want to make my second point you cannot blame other countries i mean this is the problem with all the supporters of this they blame gadhafi they blame foreigners they blame qatar and the u. A. E. And others they blame the failure of the un you cannot build a state or a country on that basis you have to take responsibility and realize that the failure of the fundamentalists is a libya ok hold on but thats thats thats good rhetoric but you yourself are admitting that outside countries are supporting different militias the president United States form barack obama has admitted on the record one of my greatest mistakes if not the biggest thing was not planning for the aftermath of libya which has the u. S. Plan better know how the outside power status would only be a better place not only job sorry for the ones who caused the war they came later telling them they were no from their point of view they are supporting their own interests and supporting that happened everywhere in lebanon on in iraq everywhere that then a video of saying for for a Political Leadership that we are blaming everybody else instead of taking our own initiatives to build their state is israel and then is it most of if if the if you are blaming outside powers doesnt that mean basically libya will be messed up for a long time to come to those outside powers are going anywhere no i mean i mean part of you going to do that not only partially blaming the outside world but clearly we as libyans who should be responsible for this and this is the problem that we have when people live under dictator who throaty years they have no room for dialogue there is no room for any other opinion this is what you have you have people who have this culture the culture for pressure and different themselves in a position no they are not willing to talk to women and when youre essentially bunch of color. A lot of people in the west have this view of arabs cant do democracy or you need to have a strongman culture and in a country like libya it doesnt help that theres this guy Khalifa Haftar former general whos now running a bunch of militias who was accused of being a former cia asset cuse to being an m. R. I. Said accused of war crimes he seems to have a lot of power and influence in a section of the country is that where libya is heading back towards the arms of another dictator another general and i think libyans they would never accept another dictator they would never accept another military rule force mr hooper have that that you mention he will support the egyptians and the immoralities by money and weapons because they want to make sure that will never get out to sort of once you get one someone like him who as i call it hourly has to be contained and whole and the know it right now right now there is there is there is a divided nations going for an election for the next quarter this the end of the year. And you have said when should the United Nations this week a panel of u. N. Experts said and i quote the political solution in libya remains out of reach in the near future do you disagree with them that clearly i agree partially agree with them yes that would be a very difficult for us to be able to get out of this mess because we liberals have to realize that the supportability it is and it is a lifetime opportunity for the country to be able to take it forward and i think we are responsible for for getting together and being able to reconciliate be able to build the country and of course we expect from the international to stop for the population to stay remain silent for forty two years theres not mean that they dont take a blame god if the focus has to be for any statesman to move the country forward the idea that you dont to mr about the future no i am not because that doesnt even the election nonsense libya had a number of elections it produced nothing but division you and i know that sometimes elections in these kind of mass and these are kind of societies that dont have an institutions create also world wars the last word to most of your optimist yes i hear you. Again look at whats going on is a natural progression that one which we go to how it was in libya. Three weeks ago i was there and was driving through all of the horde city of tripoli as well there is a lot improve and security wise if you. Will you go there to visit and then to let you know that it is secure in order why dont you both arrange a joint visit well have to leave because were out of time thank you both for joining me on outfront. Its been seven years since the arab spring protests broke out in the gulf of bahrain with thousands of demonstrators at the pole roundabout in the capital manama initially calling for reforms and eventually demanding the ruling royal family step down human Rights Groups say the barony government continues to violently crackdown on dissent and lock up Political Prisoners so whats the future for the countrys protestors joining me to discuss this is maria about her amy activist in exile an advisor to the gulf center for human rights whos been sentenced to prison in absentia by the barony authorities and whose father is currently serving a life sentence there and has been called a prisoner of conscience by Amnesty International mary thanks for coming on up front. You called the february twentieth eleven uprising in bahrain an inconvenient revolution for the arab world and for the International Community what did you mean by that well what i meant is that because of her hands geo political importance being you know between saudi arabia and iran and hosting the flame to now also a base for the United Kingdom there are a lot of interests that are based in where and you know when we took to the streets in two thousand and eleven we knew that we werent just up against the bahamian government but rather the sixtys you see countries plus their allies the United Kingdom and the United States and i think to the most part weve been proven correct in that you know the United Kingdom the United States continue to sell arms to the bahraini government and they continue to some extent to prop up the monarchy and behind a lot of the deck is stacked against you when you were on the show two years ago and twenty sixteen you said you wouldnt call. But here in the arab spring protests a quote failed uprising you said change would happen and it would happen either through a very violent situation coming about because of the repression or International Pressure forcing the government to quote do the right thing neither of those things have happened in the intervening period you know except with you like an aunt has been a failure of the uprising no i dont because if you look at once the fourteenth of february the seventh Year Anniversary of the behind uprising and the amount of protests that happened around the country i think is even more evidence that the people of but i will continue to protest until they reach their demands for civil and Political Rights that being said because of the nature of the situation in the region but also internationally of course its going to take time when i said that you know theres going to be a part of violence or a part of reform thats the path were on behind as best described as a Pressure Cooker because things will turn you know more violent if we continue down this path but there is still an opportunity for reforms its just about whether that International Pressure happens or not just to be clear for the sake of our viewers youve been accused by the bahraini government you and your family of being violent people supporters of terrorism search all sorts of accusations are against you charges thrown against you what is your position on violence i am believe in nonviolence as a methodology for change political and social change let me put it this way even when i was being assaulted by four Police Officers in the airport and behind during my arrest i did not lift a finger to defend myself so even when im being attacked i believe that nonviolence is a way of regaining control of the situation and not being reactive and you mentioned a demand for civil and Political Rights going on right now on the anniversary of the revolution of the protests this week just to be clear again what are the goals of the protesters in bahrain is it just political reform more freedom more rights or is it a revolution against the monarchy a regime change well as you stated in the beginning when people took to the streets it was about the king fulfilling the. Says that he made in two thousand and one which was a Constitutional Monarchy nothing that has happened since then has led us to a part of concert hall monitor on the contrary he unilaterally change the constitution placed himself above the constitution and give us a parliament as knowledge a lot of our monitoring powers and so when people took to the streets they were just demanding that he fulfill his promises it was after they started shooting and killing unarmed protesters that the demand shifted from being just about the constitution to demanding the stepping down of the ruling for berenice or your third we offered reforms in twenty eleven we offered reforms again in twenty fourteen the opposition boycotted any kind of elections or participation in the political process its the opposition who walked away from dialogue from reform from working together and all you have to do is look at the facts on the ground to know that there is absolutely no truth and that first of all it will fall on lot have been disbanded the largest to opposition societies in the country we have a parliamentary election coming up later this year with no opposition to run in the elections but even lets talk about the elections themselves the gerrymandering and behave puts even texas to shame where in the opposition can receive up to sixty percent of the boat vote but only eighteen out of forty seats of parliament and those are all fair points just on twenty fourteen was it looking back with the benefit of hindsight was it a mistake for the opposition to. So im not a politician myself but i do understand that you know when one will fall in love and so on came out and said that they were not going to participate in the elections to me it makes sense because if they have part spirited they would have lost complete credibility amongst the communities that theyre supposed to serve there was a complete credibility amongst the people of bahrain but even thinking of beyond that for them to take part in an election that was a sham that would have only served to you know give the government the legitimacy it was seeking internationally you mention that the bahraini people who have been protesting against the government demonstrating is to go not just against the ruling rule family but it up against the United States government which supports that ruling government has the election of donald trump as president of the. Us given you cause for optimism or pessimism has it made things better or worse for the people of bettering the situation was definitely gone and gotten worse i mean what were looking at in two thousand and seventeen and me forty eight hours after President Trump met with the king of bahrain and said there will no longer be a strain on us behind relations five people were killed extrajudicial killed and up to three hundred people were arrested on the same day thats more than we had even in two thousand and eleven but on the other hand the gulf monarchies love President Trump and so he has a lot more sway with them than obama which means that he can also influence the situation in ways that the Obama Administration could not what evidence is there that he wants to influence the situation in a way that you would support that is exactly the question there is an understanding that there needs to be reform and behind that the situation has continued to deteriorate whether were looking at the number of Political Prisoners whether were looking at the use of torture by the military now as well as the ministry of interior and so on so there is that understanding the question is how do you build policy behind that understanding many people who look at the middle east today look at the region they see proxy wars being fought everywhere in the argument is that a lot of what goes on in the middle east is basically saudi arabia versus iran whether its in yemen whether its in syria whether its in bahrain and a lot of people think the bahraini government claims that the protests in bahrain driven by iran its all about iranian sponsorship renu involvement in provocation you have a shia majority country with a minority sunni ruling family and iran is basically stirring up the hornets nest there would you say to them well i think you know its you know all you have to do is look up behind history to understand that behind the ruling family has been trying to paint brush the opposition as anything that is perceived as a threat to israel so for example you know to begin with are on also socialist that we all became communist that we all became iranian agents and now were terrorists there any agents are now apparently also hoppity agents as well but i think iran getting involved in behind as a selffulfilling prophecy. The more heavy handed the crackdown is the more iran speaks out saying that theres oppression and torture and behind and the more theres a failure from the west to do so the more the behind the people are going to find themselves in a position where they dont see any other way out or any other ally that iran is the best thing for but when of course its not for the very government its a cause of violence they point to remember of last year when one of the main Oil Pipelines they say there was an explosion caused by terrorist sabotage links to iran where are you going to deny it obviously the behind government has been making a lot of claims for a very long time way beyond two thousand and eleven theyve been talking about many terrorist cells now the question is why isnt the behind government refuses to allow any form of independent investigation to back up their claims thats where i place the question mark im not saying its not happening at all i dont know if it is because i dont have access to that information how much of this is sectarian youve said on the record in the past youve called battering a semi Apartheid Regime because of its discrimination against she is there youve attacked the bahraini military and compared some of its rhetoric to. Rhetoric the bahraini government says thats absurd with one of the most secular liberal governments in the region when youre looking at the situation but im from a sectarian viewpoint the sectarian you know language thats being used the discourse is coming from the government the basically sectarianism is the tool thats being is to divide and conquer thats the whole purpose of it have they been successful in actually creating sectarian violence in the country no they have not because the behind the people generally from you know its origin have always been a very peaceful very Friendly Society the sun is and she has a like you will not just a human rights activist youre someone whos actually personally deeply affected by all of this your father is currently serving a life sentence in bahrain after a trial that a lot of Human Rights Group criticized as unfair unjust hes been on hunger strikes you and your sister both had to leave her reign after being detained charged with crimes there and youve basically been campaigning on the issue of bahrain and for your family and for others i think since the age of twenty two. Yes how hard is it to keep carrying on like this when the odds of clearly so stacked against you well i think you know change is going to come in some just a matter of time given the economic shift thats happening that Climate Change and the way that its going to affect the middle east and all of these changes that were witnessing right now plus you know the changes happening in saudi arabia at the current the current time i think it is becoming more and more evident that is just a matter of time before things change its just about how that change is going to come about and i really hope that its not going to be by everything exploding into violence where we can no longer before it gets better exactly but of the whole logic thanks for joining me from thank you thats our show outfront well be back next week. While the. Worlds poor must to some. From the streets and the roots of. People who. Investigates the injustice is globalized. And how Different Countries respond to those bottom of society. This time on aljazeera. The way we communicate is what defines us. We dont always has been. As innovation in technology continues to shape our lives. By an earring content creation and distribution utilizing Cloud Technology and artificial intelligence. The future thats never seemed closer than it does today. And what lies beyond the horizon. To take a stew on frontiers the future of media leaders summit. Limitless possibilities. And this is different than whether someone is going for something as they read this better we think its how you approach a vigil enough that it is a certain way of doing it consciously. Just a story and fly out. Was always telling him how famous he was going to make thats how he presented hello my name. Northwest representatives kind of my teacher. Said you were a member of that we had this special meeting about the nail and he said no. Thats not the topic i knew immediately this is a cover you know piece on the mainland city al jazeera investigation. Of silence this time. This is al jazeera and live from studio fourteen here at aljazeera headquarters. Welcome to the news grid thirteen russians and three companies indicted for meddling in the