Syria turkey considers the wife e. G. A terrorist group. Spreading in pakistan after Security Forces launched an operation to clear a protest camp in the capital islamabad riot police moved in and threw tear gas canisters at the demonstrators its up front now. News has neither the new or available but the message is a simplistic and misinformation is rife listening post provides a critical counterpoint challenging Mainstream Media narrative at this time on aljazeera is religion to blame for the worlds violence or is it just an easy scapegoat and in a world of a developed science and technology do we even need religion anymore in this upfront special well debate faith reason islam and science with physicist and atheist Lawrence Krauss and reza aslan author of the new book god a Human History. Is religion a force for good or evil a controversial question i know but one you just cant avoid in the modern world from violence and terror to gender equality to science reason and education the faithful and the faithless tend to repeatedly clash over whether religion is a net positive or negative whether it helps humanity more than it said joining me today to debate all this on a special edition of the show are reza aslan a scholar of religion and bestselling author he just released his latest book god in Human History and from chicago Lawrence Krauss a theoretical physicist atheist and bestselling author of numerous books on science including his latest offering the greatest story ever told so far thank you both for joining me from reza lets start with you youve got a new book out god in Human History youre a muslim youre an academic someone who studies religions up close and personal what conclusions have you arrived at over your life and your career there id say over whether religion is a force for good or evil a positive or a negative its both i mean religion is both a force of good and evil because religion is a man made institution and human beings are both good and evil and so. I dont know why it would come as a surprise to learn that the religious institutions that we create can also be responsible for found acts of good and compassion and positivity and four equally profound acts of violence and bigotry and hatred but youre a believer you as a private as a. Belief a World Without belief a World Without faith religion. Would be a better world is what people are safe the world if that were the religion the world would be a better place its our view whether its a it would be a better or a worse place is in some ways irrelevant because of the fact that faith is deeply embedded in our cognitive processes its a its a part of who we are its a mode of knowing its an emotion its an emotion like any other emotion its not rational its experience all to say that we can simply remove faith from society i think is to misunderstand what faith actually is Lawrence Krauss youre an outspoken writer on this issue youre an atheist yourself not all atheists have a negative view of religion but the new atheists and some would put you in that camp are often seen as anti faith hostile to do you believe that a World Without religion would be a better place. Well first let me say i hate this term new atheist i dont know what it is. Not believing for as long as they have the option of leaving so this new and old thing is just some acronym that may make no sense but look i think the world would be better if we accepted reality for what it is i have to say that i i dont disagree with most of what reza said the religion is a man made institution but when what i disagree with was when he said we impose upon the divine hes assuming theres a divine but its a manmade institution the other thing that i guess i might disagree with is that when he says its a way of knowing its not a way of knowing the only way of knowing is to is to test the world and the Scientific Method is the way to learn about the world to revelation is never revealed anything true about the world but whether religion if we look at the history of things is absolute right religion has done good things religion has done bad things one of my favorite lines comes from a colleague of mine a physicist Steven Weinberg a Nobel Prize Winning physicist who said there are good people and there are bad people good people do good things bad people do bad things when good people do bad things its religion is there a sense that in twenty seventeen with all the science youre a scientist will Science Technology education we have now is it your contention that we you know we all should have outgrown religion. Well im so i was surprised by when i was a young person i thought by now we would have outgrown religion because lets face it the evidence of science is that theres no evidence for anything its very any purpose to the universe any divine inspiration theres no evidence and all that and therefore true that is surprising and if you look at and if you look at the first world at least it is true that whatever the noise thats happening in congress or the president or anything else the number of people who define themselves as having given religious faith has been decreasing monotonic lee or the last thirty or forty years and most people and i think maybe reza will agree with this most people define themselves as religious actually dont buy any of the doctrines of their quote religion they just like to think of themselves as good people in fact my friend Richard Dawkins foundation did a study of people who declared themselves as christian and in england after a census and most of them said exactly that religion is user morality and my big problem with religion if i have one is that and i get letters every day from people who say i feel like a bad person because i question the existence of god and the people around me make me feel like a bad person because religion is used more ality and if you just say look i dont accept it youre viewed as a bad person and i think both rez and i would agree thats not true certainly not true in fact poll after poll shows that the most moral community in the United States is atheists but i do think that both lawrence and i being professors and academics need to do something first and foremost before we can continue this conversation and that is define our terms because first first of all were not talking about religion were talking about faith and those are two separate things we could have a conversation about whether its right for people to replace scientific fact with mythologies and legends of course its not but i do think that its important to understand that thats not where the debate lies the debate lies in something fundamental with something that lauren said and thats that science has shown science has proven that there. Is know that there is you know nothing beyond the material realm of science oh i dont know i never said that no i said the servants of i dont there are no evidence theres no purpose right what science has shown is that we dont know whether there is any kind of purpose but there it has and there is it hasnt been any evidence that there is a purpose but of course that doesnt mean that there as an end it is a perfectly useful and not it to fear stand i think many called a new atheist or not it is what if anything im an apathy or because of because religion never comes into the question the language we often hear in this debate is we hear about religious fundamentalists but not religious moderates good or maybe theyre not good either im just wondering first of all reza do you identify with either of those terms and how would you do you see a distinction between moderates and fundamentalists we have about fundamentalism well look fundamentalism is a term that was created about one hundred twenty years ago very specifically to speak about a movement within American Protestant christianity that in response to the scientific revolution and the the sort of definition of truth being that which can be factually verified and the response to that was to say well if truth is only that which can be factually verified then the only way scripture can be true is if it can be factually verified if its literal and so there we get the terms literalism fundamentalism nowadays when we use the term fundamentalism what we mean is sort of all true conservative expressions of religiosity religiosity that is dependent upon the literalist reading of text that actually believe it or not despite i think what most people assume is a minority opinion about religion lawrence is absolutely right many many in fact i would say the majority of religious people do not take their their religious doctrines you know completely. Heart and in fact the pew pew forum of religion in public life discovered that anywhere between ten and twelve percent of self described atheists in america actually believe in god so this is an important point to the religious believers who are not literally is to call the moderates do you identify yourself as im older now i mean the words like moderate and literalist and fundamentalists unfortunately have lost a lot of meaning because of the way that they get they get. Thrown around as pejoratives as value judgments im a person of faith i have an experience understanding of the universe and experience thats what thats thats what amazes me because what you just said it seems to me is an oxymoron safe involves believing things for which theres no evidence and the only time you have an experience that science is an experiment is experience understanding universe faith is most certainly exactly the opposite which is why thats what most scientists arent what most let. Well let me let me let me just say the point is that most scientists are atheists or and most atheists are its simply because god is irrelevant god is redundant weve not been a scientist for forty years ive never heard the word mentioned in a Scientific Meeting we dont need the idea what you understand there are so maybe so maybe you can have faith in it the following you can have faith in a divine purpose to the universe but it doesnt help us understand anything about the way the universe actually works so so i dont care about mormons on that note you know i mean you mentioned science obviously i think youre right the surveys do show a majority of scientists are atheist but that doesnt change that a lot of prominent scientists all believers in god who have done a lot of great work as i like to say there are some scientists there are some scientists republicans people are rational ok but heres my question on the note about different religious folks because i mentioned fundamentalism is your problem as an atheist with the religious fundamentalists who kind of resin outlined who is he says are minority or is it with all religious folks because a lot of prominent atheist have come out and said that moderates. Some fundamentalists because they act as apologists for the fundamentals that does call for the fun and thats why youll have the i dont like labels either as well as reza i think the point is my problem with religion is i generally think that fundamentalism or not their religious institutions have. The notion of morality but on the whole promulgated ideas that are are not useful and often harmful for people and take many people many many many people who simply want to ask questions about the universe and make them feel bad and moreover elevates certain ideas as sacred and without question and there just be nothing sacred in a Democratic Society true everything should be subject to question radical from religion to sex to politics and science and what i would say just chance and signs that thats what science is based on we all question each other and we dont go for i dont go we dont where road says and you didnt quote on some question which is when i say that you can have religious folks in general just people in general do you see them as less culpable for the kind of sins or crimes or that you ascribe to religion would you see them as just as bad as everyone else as a quote unquote fundamentalist literalist extremist whatever word you want to give i just want to nail down what you think of religious people as a whole point is you think im complaining about people im not complaining about people im complaining about ideas theres a very different i get that there are effect wonderful religious people there are crappy religious people my christabel you cant generalize but i dont think you could generalize individuals individuals act in a certain way and and as i say we all believe ten impossible things before breakfast just to get you to believe you love your wife or you love your job or you love coming on this program or whatever it is im sure that the law and i do and i really do but what im saying is that you know i think to generalize about people because of what how they identify themselves is kind of naive in sa so you say not even just to be a million mentioning it because a lot of prominent atheists knew atheists and they dont like that phrase how of it in fact attacked people and said. Moderates socalled moderates are apologists for the extreme a sudden just i think a lot of time with writer and Richard Dawkins are going to put the words you know thats all i think youre like youre putting what people know i think youre putting words if you know and i know my friend Richard Dawkins takes and i dont know if you are rhetorical or essentially the very thing Richard Dawkins said and i quote i know you know is that there is a sense in which the moderate nice religious people nice christians nice muslims make the world safe for extremists is that your view there is a sense in which its true theres a sense of which its not your job but there is a sense by accepting look like septic this nonsense this doctoral nonsense and by refusing to say look i have faith but you know what you know when someone blew a horn the earth didnt stop you know there wasnt a virgin birth all of these things you know if you when you in our society except this nonsense and we agree not to talk about it as if its nonsense and doing that i do think makes the world more safe for a fundamentalist i sit here and position if you very little. Anyone who believes in that nonsense is culpable for thats really what is once again i think actually lawrence a very good job there of differentiating between faith and religion in fact he said we believe you know ten. Things we did killers things before breakfast one of them being is i believe my what i love my wife thats a perfect example of what im talking about faith is the same exact if i have to love my wife and see everything as a lot of everything is fine im going to. Agree on a subject and ask you first of all reza on the subject of fundamentalism the religion these days most associated fundamentalism is islam sure rightly or wrongly in terms of whats going on in the middle east in terms of terrorist attacks in terms of you know issues of gender etc etc do you accept that the religion of islam out of all the religions right now being debated in the world or covered it is the religion that most people are most worried about and people are kind of right to worry about it because it is in true. Doing into everyday life in a way that other religions perhaps arent i think that most definitely people should be worried about religious acts of violence because religion does lend itself to those kinds of acts as does any other ideology but if youre going to blame religion for acts of violence in religions name then you have to be willing to blame nationalism for fascism you have to be willing to blame socialism for communism you know these are going on and on and these are manmade i think youre making please a little earlier or later ideologies please one moment these are all manmade ideologies all of them predicated on absolutism of one sort or another and any kind of absolutism is a dangerous ideology and it can be used for. Us to respond to the point just said you know are you doing is there going to do you think the people are right to put islam of the top of that we should have ideologies to be worried right so what youre asking is is there something exceptional about exceptional about islam that makes it more likely in the current to in the current era i mean i think that its certainly true i think its certainly true that when one looks at large parts of the middle east what you are seeing is muslims in gauged in acts of violence and conflict thats absolutely true but whether that means that there is something inherent within islam its texts or its ideology that lends itself to that violence more so than say judaism or it is a more hinduism is false simply by the fact that we have buddhist violence and christian violence and jewish violence let me let me let me jump in finally ok look i think the point is that some of some of what reza said is accurate i think there are thank you arent solving. Some small percentage the point is that theres a lot of religious violence and i dont think you know and i am not. I dont define myself as a theologian although ive read the all the scriptures of both books though i think the Old Testament is full of violence that just is just as. Miserable as the quran is i think i said this program before theyre all equally violent and miserable if you actually read the scriptures are not theyre not guides for good living but the point the real concern i think is that for one reason or other and i think its just historical the quran is taken by many. Muslims to be literal to be sacred to be not touchable the bible isnt anymore my big problem with with islam right now is that people take the quran as if it is a meaningful worthwhile document and its no more meaningful or worthwhile than the bible and i think many christians and jews now say you know what im a christian but i look at the bible and i say i pick and choose what i like its a very very well you know it out of its advice to fill it out offensive where you can say well you know if i dont know who did it they have its you know you know youre going to appoint therefore youve made a point before you say why its an amateur point i think its a fair point im going to also lawrences question do the earlier reza point which is that you cant just blame religions for war man goes to will for all sorts of ideologies and you to come fairly all the age of course just you know on World War Two the cold war to know how to do well to put that you know well look i mean religion is a huge force in our society and its a contributor to many things there are many other forces of economic inequity is theres so much theres history theres ideology as you point out religion has played a role and a god and in various times in Human History a role either initiating or justifying why but i think the bottom line is that it religion if anything is an outgrowth of something that is i think basis which is in a phobia religion is based on in groups and out groups im not talking about faith now im talking about religion religion is also versus them and its been very effective from a tribal perspective of bringing groups together and keeping them there tried together and i think thats probably part of the evolution of the basically right wing so its religion is first and foremost a matter of identity not a matter of blood so you realize what you have just simply a little bit of the koran being a book thats well and so you know. In a way the bible is a. Set you know he admits that hes not a theologian but hes read scriptures im not a cosmologist but ive looked at the stars but i do feel that its a very different thing. You know i think you do not and first and foremost need. Go back six hundred years to talk about christian violence ok we have or of course you dont robert dear shut up of planned parenthood because he said jesus told them to do so you know or justify slavery in the United States just showing slaves i believe and with the use of that the religion was a solution in order to free slaves and so thats the other little bit of making all the other we wanted to hear it religion could be used different as you used to think out of the lawrences specific rohani right is right islam is an exceptional example of the old texture and literalism and infallibility right and again i think thats a very and im not using amateurish in a derogatory way here but it is an amateur view of whats happening with religion whats happening in the world right now every religion every texts has verses that problem gay peace and love and compassion and verses that promulgated violence and destruction thats the whole thing about religious scripture is that its infinitely malleable i understand why a lot of americans particularly liberal educated americans would say well christians read their scriptures differently because i feel thats the case because of what i see in the media but its not true the truth of the matter is that how you read the scripture has everything to do with who you are and very little to do with the scripture of lawrence let me ask you this question about it but very briefly what it shows that most sometimes only dont believe the doctrines of the religion and that i dont think those studies are the same im going to do all sorts of but were always around the country lawrence and also live in the United States where there are a lot of christian literalists who did help elect the president as if there would be a president United States without this christian evangelical who was running out of time with your nose that they dont buy the way which shows they dont believe in the scriptures because they did they would have elected donald trump ok. Reza you are clearly someone who has no problem signing up for what modern science believes about evolution absolute all sorts of other controversial but the reality is that a lot of religious leaders dont sign up to things like evolution dont have a problem with a lot of cool tenets of modern scientific theory how do you resolve that issue we hear a lot about i dont. Resolve it and you know people can people believe what they want to believe people can marry a good thing they get a list of those really good thing yes but for an entire generation people bring up their kids to believe antiscientific things some in the name of religion thats not a good thing you would be pro the absolutely look believing scientific things i think is incorrect which is a reality in the religious world but the thing yes it is it is a reality in the religious world but its not the reality within the religious world where you know that americans believe america is the greatest country in the world its not look thats just leave off they going thats what i guess i am but what i would say is this i think what we need to do is provide greater religious literacy greater education about the religions of the world about the way that religion is a historical and for the phenomenological thing to discuss and and experience we also need to have conversations that separate religious belief from just faith in itself lawrence is right that religious identification is on the decline but you know what is not on the decline is actually belief in god spiritualism is not in decline religious identification is i agree with you about literacy i think literacy is a great thing we should all be literate about really more things are almost im not important absurd about so i let me ask you this do you agree with russ on the spiritual point resume the point that you know the belief is not going down because it is interesting as you mentioned polling and i do want to i do want to end this by asking you know which of you is on the right side of history regardless of whether god exists or not well to a while there where you cannot just love going reality you know what i like i love the spirituality of science because that as one significant advantage its real and so when i look at a hopeful space telescope picture i experience saw and wonder about the real universe i hear people tell me you know im not religious but im spiritual and usually that means that they havent thought about the issue and i think a very important thing is for you to essentially figure out a way to reconcile what you see as real with your subjective experience of what about real thing is and so again and know what we are. I love being wrong thats why im a scientist but i love eating and they were very clear in the wrong hold on as an atheist you never said i dont know whether there is a god or not you said there is no god because theres no evidence for an a. O. S. So i said theres no evidence yes an agnostic says no evidence and not a tick says i dont know what i want in the show and whats another atheist or agnostic i do want to show ill be willing to look in your christian i had claim there is a purpose to where my not only did i knew a little not a divine purpose fair enough let me ask you both to look at your crystal balls and say it is ten twenty thirty years from now are we going to have fewer believers in the world are we doing belief is on a downward trajectory do we think religion is dying are we outgrowing it or not no were not growing faith were not growing belief because heres the thing as i think a lot of people and perhaps lawrence is one of them seems to believe that science can replace faith that if we can prove certain things then people will stop believing in them but the fact of the matter is is that religion has always been in a state of evolution when we discovered that the earth was not the center of the universe christianity didnt go away it just absorbed that information and continued if aliens suddenly appear right now in front of us you know and say you know hello were from another planet its not like religion will see them simply go away will accept that knowledge and well move on. Ok well first of all i generally dont put make predictions about anything less than two trillion years in the future for many reasons not least because none of us will be around to talk about it so i dont claim to have a crystal ball but i think that one thing is True Religion has been ubiquitous part of Human History its not going to go away easily but nothing is true is that the more Scientific Literacy there is the less of the. Intellectual basis will will be there to support religion or well see more and more people finding other ways to add meaning and purpose so their lives are created ill find spirituality and reality and i think that is a good thing whether but i dont think religion is easily going to go. Way its been around for as long as humanity as ive been writing and no scientific knowledge is going to change rely has a lot going on i have the last word scientific knowledge its going to change related religion its going to alter religious people but it wont make it go away Lawrence Krauss reza will have to leave it there thank you both for coming on this special edition of outfront thats our show up front will be back next. I am taking his story to lift the restrictions on america without regulation. Tax policy on. The environment it was a surprise. That someone. Is going to take. Some of the cost of the. Toxic war but this time. Responding Six Continents across the. Corresponding living brain the stories they tell of it was done enough but it is what the letters. Were and the words of the russian camp for palestinian record holders era in world news. Was different i said whether someone. Thinks its how you approach an official and if it is a certain way of doing it you can just. Africa is going through seismic changes few country stands out because its considered so successful why is the. President of ghana nonna a coup for i dont talk to all jews either at this time. This is aljazeera