A plan to harvest rice from land abandoned by row hinge of families in Northern Iraq and states more than six hundred thousand ranger have fled to bangladesh since late late august after a military crackdown by myanmars military human Rights Groups say the decision raises questions about whether the refugees well ever be allowed back those are the headlines ill be back in twenty five minutes but for now you can see inside story. In control of catalonia spain pushes back fire in the government and the police but will that simply exacerbate catalans ambitions to split what happens next this is inside story. And welcome to inside story in less than twenty four hours catalonia has declared independence spain has responded by stripping the region of its autonomy and taking control of its government and police the spanish Prime Minister dismissed calends leaders including carlos puja ma now the Prime MinisterMariano Rajoy called for a snap election in the region on december twenty first and handed over catalonia is reins to spains deputy Prime Minister psoriasis and as does santa maria. Used to be made up maybe this game was operable though the first measures that have been tossed are the following to depose the president of the council on government the position of the Deputy President and all of the members of the council on government we will also abolish the delegation abroad known as the embassies except in brussels and the secretary general of the council on police will also be suspended while several thousand people have been taking part in protests unity rally in madrid pro separatist supporters say theyll continue their fight for Catalonia Autonomy regardless the independence secularization has not only been rejected within spain several countries including europe the European Union itself and the United States have all said they wont recognize an independent catalonia catalans dismiss leader has said he wants a democratic opposition to the takeover by the Spanish Government without force or violence and what this. Game and that citizens you all understand the period which it just started is one that we must continue defending with stability and peaceful commitment your actions are the reflection of a mature country that knows that the rection it wishes to follow we have to continue we have to persevered with that attitude that will help us succeed without violence and without insult being inclusive respecting people symbols opinions and the protests of those catalogs that disagree with what the majority in parliament have decided so lets bring in our guests and first in barcelona we have enrique lets say dick hell of senior Professor Emeritus at the university of barcelona in madrid we have spanish writer and political Analyst Daniel that guest gone and bruce belgium via skype luke that leg and health a Senior Researcher at the institute for European Studies welcome to you all and im going to begin by asking each of you to answer as quickly as possible if you have any idea what happens next and rick. Its extremely hard to say the. Government has taken legal control of the region the president two thirty this afternoon implied that he was going to push back in other words if there was a situation of two governments in a confrontation daniel to you what happens next well i think that this is very difficult to say i hope that. When the state can. Return to look at iran at the legality as soon as possible and i think the election for twenty first. For doing so and look over to you what what happens but i think we are in a very difficult dynamic this moment so anything is possible but basically there will be a confrontation between the catalan or should i say the former Catalan Government and the madrid government and it will all depend. On and i set a goal if there will be some use of force or not and the rest of. The government of catalonia in reaction to that daniel i want to ask you weve been talking here trying to think of one time in history where government simply just handed over peacefully landed to a country that wanted to separate how exactly did president putin all think this was going to end what did he have a plan b. What i think is this for separation is not only illegal about this image of the maids if you if you look at the figures just of the seventy members of the got on but i mean voted yes out of one hundred thirty five with their opposition absent against the advice of the lawyers of the of the coming out of this this seventy members of the parliament they represent about for for the seven forty eight percent of the vote which is some of the thirty percent of the population so. They were saying this is something a minority trying to impose the rights of an over a year it is is an idea of democracy which is against the rule is im not its not the only thing about legalities is some of the beauty missing well i want to ask you this inri i mean if you think about it if he had been successful if spain miraculously said sure go ahead his people would have woken up without a passport without any sort of trade deals without access to the euro they would have lost a lot of infrastructure potentially such as their electricity which is provided by madrid so what exactly in the president s mind did he think he was going to accomplish if he was successful would it not have launched your city into absolute chaos i think. Its not really germane problem because its question of. Bluffing in poker youve got to poker players faced off and theyve been bluffing for two months straight so what is real this is not so important as what is apparent. Independent tests have managed to construct. A narrative thats much more efficient than anything the Spanish Government has put together spanish spokesmen have been surprisingly. Rather silent. Creating an effective description all theyve done is talk about the law from the catalan nationalist point of view what counts is the people on the street theyve made their own revolutionary law and theyre Going Forward with it so look over to you the press the Prime Minister now has sort of in a very difficult position is box in is he not i mean if the leaders wont simply go away and catalonia is going to send in the tanks what does he do. Once again its difficult to predict what is going to happen and will close is going to do that the point is that from a legal point of view spain is totally in the right position to do what it is doing and i mean its a state that is to certain amounts of decentralized and that decentralization can be turned back by article one fifty five and indeed it would be unthinkable that any country in the world would just like that give up one of its richest regions we discussed the problem then is how do you do that and how do you build your own narrative that goes against the nationalist narrative of the separatist movement. So daniel let me ask you that he talk lets put the legality or the illegality aside here were talking about peoples actual lives millions of people so how does roy become the leader of them again without inflicting any sort of pain so when i. And i they often said very good that they like which is that they are the of those those heroes that the retired the bulk of it would do we will have seen is. A like a push. A confrontation and i think with the. Former got on government has to bugger off and that this goes back and i think its going to something that is going to be very difficult as to how to manage their frustration of so many people that have believed in this in this hope no i think well let me ask you this is this is actually going to back off is that what youre saying he needs to do you have any indication that hes going to. I think i hope so i hope this this this happens and the end of the sensibility imposes not. By the by the of course we dont know and there is very complex technical and the Public Opinion in the situation is very tense of this at this moment but i hope this goes. For that for the event and i hope they got it on his hands on him very soon restore the end of the cut that i knew it was about through to today got it in that we got. It and more theyve in spain now and enrique i want to ask you this because again were everyones talk about legality but were not talking about legality were talking about we are now at the brink they have had these theyve been bluffing as you say in poker so now at some point someones going to have to show their cards are you getting a sense there in barcelona that people are prepared for whatever that could be since nobody knows whats going to happen no. No theres great uncertainty to begin to be doubts but the brig sman ship continues puts them on has basically challenge again the rumor on the radio so i was coming to this. Place like a balloon out of the film was that. Which the money was going to announce elections for the twentieth of december as opposed to the twenty first which are the ones that roughly is going talking in other words from here it still remains from an independent this point of view in your face not clear so look let me ask you this because if they do if this stretches out and they do compete in elections or it goes on for months do you think the economic potential Economic Impact of forming your own country is widely understood by the people and this is to look. Well in any case there is indeed very strong Economic Impact first of all whole catalonia itself weve seen all the companies that are moving their seeds out of bus alone because i think it will damage also the whole of the spanish economy and perhaps even the whole of europe because spain is connected to the rest of europe by the european institutions and not at least nine by the euro so there is indeed very big economic reality that has to be considered and and as far as i can see that has not been really on the agenda of the narrative of going independent and forming a new state that any i want to ask you this if people could blame the two currently are for the standoff that this is not a new issue this is been going on for a very long time how did we get here. Thats a very difficult question that something which is very strange is how around two thousand and twelve independent this sentiment increased no i think this was this was mostly a top down idea because of course the harbin tension son i dont know has always had a strong identity but it was. Qatar nationalists have always tended to be to believe in their mothers new station of spain they were more or less the engine something that brought spain closer closer to europe and i think with the economic crisis and also when the with the impact of the economic crisis in the political system some some part of Qatar National just decided well we we europe is fragile spain is not a very good mark at this moment we have. This sentiment of grievance of things like the the started and we are going to try try to do this and i think at the end if you think about it. This this has resulted in now in a loss of autonomy in Economic Loss in reputational damage. In except there except the rate intentions inside the inside the population so i think this this really has has backfired and i think thats something we we we have to think about when we. Letters but this big guy did two months by by emotions and by and successful well let me ask you this and i want to put this to all three of you if you could please answer as quickly as simply as possible is it too late for dialogue could they really Start Talking and what would that look like food you expect would be in a Strong Enough position now to make the first move and say lets stop lets talk to you first on that and ill get all three of you to answer that please. The Spanish Government considers. But its in such a strong position it doesnt really have to dialogue it considers its try to not understand the Catalan Government in. Self example i dont know how to put it considers that. It has done everything it could by its own self acclaimed legislation to possibly accommodate the spaniards so it continues to be. A standoff neither will go local they talk doesnt look good yeah i dont think so look ahead here well have to talk. In the long run because dialogue will be the only way to get out of the situation between need an agenda for the dialogue and the way i see it is that we have to do things on the table no one and that it has to be prepared to reform itself into a truly federal state that gives a lot of autonomy not to certain regions which are all regions in spain and secondly. The Catalan Government or representatives really have to make sure that they accept the idea of being a Regional State within a state and maybe we can add a third dimension to that that is that in europe in European Union we have to rethink the place of National Regions in the governance structure in brussels daniel well they talk i think at the end there will be in their will they will have to talk i think the important thing is that there the rule of law is established and after that i think that spain has to be generous and. The rights of minorities have to be protected but. After this we have to do to understand that this is an opportunity and a duty to reform spain so i think i think the rule of law has to has to has to win and then also a lot of creativity. And. Willingness to reform have to have to be in place now softer now and rick i want to ask you this question it seems to me that the elections could be just from an outsiders perspective these elections if madrid and barcelona and the leaders could agree that yes these elections will be free and fair and lets find out what the majority of people what we didnt really get that sense from the vote for independence could this be a way for everyone to save face and to actually decide the issue well which lamont had a chance to accept confronting elections himself and he finally did not to do it so i dont see an easy way out meaning that most of the reasonable proposals that have come from people around the conflict on the spanish side on the catalan side have ended up getting nowhere and i see an extraordinary stubbornness on the part in bennetts movement it sees that it has done nothing wrong and so it therefore is willing to push the struggle for the long term. The government is not willing to has not shown itself willing to yield on anything except. The baby so i dont see any way out of this look i want to ask you this questions about the European Union they have not shown any willingness to intervene theyve sided with the Spanish Government they said its not their place to mediate could somebody step in and mediate and if so who. Well i can truly stupid point of view each has an amen date to intervene because this is strictly sensible and unilateral for us and it has no instruments so the only thing that could happen and probably is already happening is that behind the scenes some influential persons are trying to to mediate that officially there is no place at this moment for the e. U. To do anything you know catalonia is not alone across the world you see people who have in different parts of the world said we maybe once independence as well the fact that the entire world has sided basically with oil what message do you think that sends and im going to send this to you daniel what message does that send to people across the globe who might be thinking along the same lines as the catalans. Well i think it. Makes us think how populist nationalism sometimes we think nationalism is i think of the past but it can be activated so it serves as that the past is never far behind and also serves as the dangers of populists politics because it is creates a fracture since in Society Everything becomes. Black and white and i think its better to the thing about. How pluralism their liberal destructors are of us to have this conflict of interest and different sensibilities. They can be negotiated in you know in a better way so i think in many ways the cut on the some this is this this independent this movement of. Is similar to brics it or two other. Moments that have are an element of taking back control. That are so delusional in some ways but were seeing this across a lot as you just mentioned this national is a look at i want to ask you about this catalonia is just another version of what weve seen with the election of donald trump with rocks it does this continue to snowball basically not just in europe that run the globe. Well it is true that there is a populist a dimension in what is happening both in the brics its got a long year but at the bottom line is that the right for sell a determination of people. Has to be respected and this is mentioned in the un charter but this only makes sense if youre real talking about situations where lets say the human rights are in danger or Something Like that for the rest its a bit of was a strange thing that people everywhere tend to say well we want to be independent we will do we are better off on our own and surprisingly or not surprise me this is happens this happens the most enriching regions are rich countries. Because there is a dimension of solidarity with the rest of the country and that is of course something which is difficult to do. To. I mean i think the president just said this morning or yesterday that he doesnt want to end up treating the util ninety five members and that is what could happen if everybody starts thinking when we are on our own it will go that and effect is of course that with globalization this is a delusion this is not true that we are working real or living in a globalized world and it is integration thats real make a school that youre going to say and rick i want to ask you about his thoughts on that what do you think is this just another version of brecks it that were seeing here is this going to continue of the President Donald Trump brecks it now catalonia no i dont think so i mean in one sense it is so in one sense it is just like the elections and the czech republic. Is a general rejection of old style politics. Very clearly in the society both for independent tests and for. Unionists or spanish nationalists our view is to cause i dont see i repeat an easy way out the independent tests are ready for a very long. Long haul means theyre talking about five years like about for the future and are not expecting any short Term Solution and daniel lets say raul wins and the independence they lose this doesnt go away that spirit of rebellion does not go away if well it only gets stronger so what happens what could he do to try and make them say ok well now we have enough we dont need to separate completely which of course he would never agree to what i think one one of the things that the fun is for this hour a talk about this would be our constitution our cause the reform to see how the status of their own how could be protected in this mans constitution i think. Always has to be. Will have to be body they do through vote in. And i think. This will be an opportunity for them and i think the spanish constitution nine hundred seventy is going to denise is very good is very advanced it doesnt need to. Be right but i think some some things they did. To me dont people mona supports independence some but im sure some of them would be happier with with that sense in the in the status quo and i think. Through concessions on and i dream and sun through compromise i think thats the way to do things in you know them across the way where we can and then read and let me ask you know the ground they dont differences now i get enrique last question to you catalonians are very split amongst themselves how do they come back together again i have no idea because for instance one of the one of the other speakers i think you know said that catalan talk to realize that they are one more out to anime within a variety of out i mean thats exactly what catalan nationalists said independent of dont want they want a special autonomy and if they dont get that its going to be very hard to integrate that large third of the population. That is there and sectors that can identify with them i see no easy solution a lot of this has been very bad politics on both sides. All right thank you all of this has been a very intelligent and informed discussion now we dont know where it goes but i appreciate your perspective on this thanks to all of our guests and rick. Daniels guest gone and look then leg and health thank you very much and thanks to you for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com and for further discussion go to our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter our handle is at a. J. Inside story for me and the whole team here bye for now. 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