By alleged visuality groups after a supernatural scare triggered mob violence and outbreak of bubonic plague in madagascar has killed ninety four people and could spread further according to the World Health Organization there are cases on the island nearly every year however already say this epidemic is more dangerous and has arrived earlier than expected thats it for now ill be back in half an hour coming up next up front. How much is Nobel Peace Prize winner aung sang suu kyi to blame for the ongoing violence against the Rohingya Muslims in myanmar one of her fellow Nobel Laureates the renowned bangladeshi economist mohammad yunus. I marry her son as a new generation of feminists have risen up around the world in whats been called the third wave a central question as emerged in the movement should feminists support all womens choices or some choices Holding Women back thats our debate but first in what the u. N. Has called a textbook example of ethnic cleansing in recent weeks more than half a million Rohingya Muslims have fled me martha neighboring bangladesh mean more Security Forces and put is vigilantes have been accused of mass rape murder and the burning of entire villages so how much is the countrys defacto leader aung sang suu kyi to blame and how is bangladesh handling the mass influx of Rohingya Refugees this weeks headliner nobel peace laureate economist and author of the new book a world of three zeros muhammad yunus. Mohammad yunus thanks for joining me on up front were going to talk about your new book a world of three zeros in a moment perhaps Start Talking with you about perhaps the biggest story in the world right now in many ways because you are one of a select band of individuals who have been honored with a Nobel Peace Prize and yet one of your fellow nobel peace laureate aung sang suu kyi currently seems to be complicit in brutal violence ethnic cleansing possibly genocide against the Rohingya Muslim minority in myanmar how does that make you feel i feel terrible the most shameful terrible thing that happened to me is the number one news item right now and i feel it every day because the people are coming from the same region where theyre looking your people are coming you chicken. I feel this Nobel Peace Prize the cigars she had won the maids who are world showered with admiration and respect for her now she completely reversed her position she has another phrase who she is about the trustees about killing your own citizens these are in yours were born there lived there for generations. When the country became independent they were automatically became the citizens the participated in politics the sender the present in the parliament they were the cabinet members suddenly nineteen needed to military government comes with the idea. That they are no longer serious so let me ask you this in myanmar right now what were seeing is what the un has called a textbook example of ethnic cleansing last year you signed a letter to the Un Security Council with a dozen other Nobel Laureates expressing quote frustration that Aung San Suu Kyi for her refusal to act on this issue just to be clear because a lot of people kind of point the blame in Different Directions how much blame do you place on her directly for the Current Crisis for this ongoing violence and Refugee Movement but hundred percent of the blame on her because she is the leader she can say that and were splitting me as somebody that a lot of people would say the military really in charge what can she do well then she should resign this is they cant handle it because this is their own citizen is another few people who by staying on shes blessing the mediterranean less in order on to their belief shes defending it she said i dont know why these people are going no we dont have a choice of the lords is american is were attacking us all kinds of thing there is no atrocities in the villages burning of villages these are all false she made his name these are false news so she takes all the blame herself so theres no way you can parted with the military and anybody else if she gets all the blame and shes responsible for it and she has to fix it so when your fellow nobel peace laureate Jose Ramos Horta of east timor who signed that letter with you last year a few months ago he was on this show and he was basically defending on things he said shes handling a very complex delicate situ. Gratian she cannot antagonize the military quote criticism probably is mis directed more to her than to the military what do you say to him i would say the same thing and if she is if she cannot say the things she should say then she is not a leader a leader is supposed to stand by their own people have you had any contact with aung sang suu to yourself in recent i met her several times before months before this incident before the election. I mentioned about and so on she said well i have to be very careful about the military back and not say anything but wonder election is over if i am the winner im definitely taking a stand in favor oh she said that she said that to me is going back on the inevitable and if you could speak to a directly today what would you say to what she should be doing i said you have to stand up you have to protect your image that youve built over the years as a defender of Human Rights Defender of democracy what happened to all those values that you have promoted stand by them its not the military is not somebody else you suffer the house and all this for years and years you believed in sentence appeals what happened to those principles is it because just you want to stay in power and you have to go along with the military and everybody else what would they do they would put you back into prison or Something Like that do you think she still deserves that Nobel Peace Prize if she is if she had all this story in front of the committee im sure the committee will never give her the prize just talking about your own country bangladesh which is hosting one million Rohingya Refugees who fled persecution in me i think more than half a million since august alone Prime Minister sharon has seen or has been commended by a lot of people in the International Community for taking in the refugees for speaking on behalf of refugees but lets be honest bangladesh is a poor country with a bunch of domestic problems that need tackling how long can it continue to host this growing rohingya refugee population within its not only simply economic issue its a political issue its a security issue so you have one Million People who belong to any other country came to your country. And there are really taking up arms against the situation and it becomes the den of the respective it is very soon and all the International Connections of the terrorism will begin and this will be terrible for bangladesh and terrible for the region and all these things will come come on in an explosive these go by so i am saying that it has to be resolved very fast before all those elements can create trouble for everybody ok many are concerned in bangladesh that the islam a quote unquote islamist Pressure Group in bangladesh is exploiting the influx of Rohingya Refugees theyre organizing mass protests around the issue theyre even threatening to wage jihad against me and my of quote the army doesnt stop torturing muslims how worried are you that groups like have are getting a big p. R. Boost in bangladesh from the Rohingya Crisis and becoming even more influential in what was once traditionally deemed to be a secular democracy not an islamist country this issue. And that if you g. s it will become the forger for all kind of negative activities including the extreme on the terrorism so these are only demonstrations im more worried about the terrorism they do breed because of the frustrations in the young people were not seeing the young people yet but when they came in mostly women and children these children will grow up whos given them the equation whos going in the future what is the future they look up to so they will be very dated you really are the rohingya refugee crisis is a recruiting sergeant in a sense for the sort of the i said this is a concentrated help for the recruitment and promotion of terrorism and just one last question on this issue on bangladesh and on me and said that myanmars pretended like they wanted a war Bangladeshi Government accused me of modren choppers of violating its airspace are you worried that this conflict could erupt into an outright open war between the two countries that it serves the general security issue right now which direction it will take we dont know because even in the. Something will happen and somebody will use that within your name to me to tap and so any direction it can go is not only between between bangladesh and my arm i am saying all the regional countries will become involved in india will get involved with pakistan will get involved with all the terrorist groups still involved with the middle east and so on how many countries will get involved god knows because this is a very attractive. Area staging area for the terrorist activities. Mohammad yunus lets talk about your new book the world of three zeros the new economics of zero poverty zero unemployment zero net Carbon Emissions its focused on capitalism in particular unfettered capitalism and growing wealth inequality around the world you write in the book that the structure of the present Economic System is quote a ticking time bomb waiting to destroy everything we have created over the years what do you mean by that exactly simple thing that is the way the concentration of wealth is taking place in the world. It is just leading to the ticking time bomb any day to explode today eight people in the world own more well then the bottom half of the entire worlds population and tomorrow it will be one person who will be only half the population of wealth in two in the hand the one in the after probably one person would own eighty five percent of the wealth of the in their world this is the direction it will not fire and be it is just about the next few years it will happen so a lot of people who read your book or listen to speak now especially on the right will say look there is a problem with wealth inequality income inequality but youre not looking at the big picture which is the growth of incomes across the board you acknowledge in the book that since one thousand nine hundred sixty in poverty has been cut in half if you look at china for example thats a lot to do with Economic Growth eight hundred Million People have been lifted out of poverty there since nine hundred eighty thats a kind of capitalism to it is capitalism it is capitalism which is helping people get out of poverty in the slow motion way again but when you talk about to grow. Growth of the economy im not concerned about the growth of the kind of im concerned with the growth of people so what do you say to people who read your book and say but youre deliberately vague about a how you switch to this new system of yours and b. How your system would actually lead to zero poverty and zero unemployment as a big goals i mentioned that because im saying every business has should have a pretty low business of social business and this is because we have it not because im imposing on it if you feel that yes you want to contribute to learn to play a part in solving problems about employment problem solving of the Housing Health care and so and so forth all the things that we know if you can play there everyone doing that this problem will be solved at the same senator but you know youre not the first to say that sounds very utopian you talk in the book about super happiness we need to taste super happiness and great in theory but how do you do it in the real world what makes your full sentences making money is the happiness making other people happy is a super have again very very big because i started big it was there you cant measure something you know i understand keep telling people say i dont feel super happiness i but i said because you have not done that i said why dont you just try instead of seeing the foot in front of you ok but thats a very smart or approach telling individuals to be happy its almost like a selfhelp systemic use a systemic critique of capitalism do you have a systemic replacement and a way to get there systemic replacement is there with two kinds of business well its your choice capitalist system is all about choice thats what theyre proud about were our choice but when it comes to business there is no choice really we have to make money you have to make a profit you have to maximise profit i said desa not an option you give people option let them choose whether they want to do that make a profit maximizing or just change the world by creating source social business addressing the problem you have not even does that issue you say in your book that people without a future get angry at that desperately poor people be driven to crime would you extend the analogy about marginalised angry people turning to crime to the debate over radicalization. Is that whats also driving young people especially young men in places like bangladesh into groups into the arms of groups like iceland your view if the concentration continues though it does it will generate human this amount of anger in the bottom of people it will come out in politics it come on and social interactions it will come out in economics and i gave the example probably because it is an example of that blaming the others for taking a lady a job income and so on and politicians use this kind of feeling and say yes youve bought for us we will stop. Immigration come out of europe the European Union but just pacifically on the issue of radicalization do you believe these Socio Economic trends and pressures are feeding into the radicalization or goes in all directions this is ridiculous asian is a part of that so if youre envy you do all kinds of these a logic doesnt guide you in march not only in bricks it i said evenly in the u. S. Election same thing happened the people at the bottom got very angry with the system that protested against it in Germany Election it recently the people who had never expected to be in the parliament they got thirteen percent of the seats i said these are probably their reaction generated to the bottom because they are frustrated theyre angry because they see the system is not working for them and i said it will become worse and worse now mind you this thank you for joining me from there in cuba thank you very much. In whats been pegged its third wave the f. Word is becoming popular again yes feminism and central to the current debate is the idea that womens choices matter to vote act to dress as they see fit so should Family Support all womens choices some say that certain choices are Holding Women and the feminist movement back joining me to debate this are Meghan Murphy founder and editor of canadas feminist current website to find radical feminist whos been critical of the choice Feminism Movement and jimmy a wilson executive director of feminist press who calls herself an intersectional black family and is the author of an upcoming book on beyond say and famine is a thank you both for joining me. Upfront Meghan Murphy you consider yourself a radical feminist and you said that the choice framework supporting womens freedom to make choices simply normalize the sexism it raises feminism and works to remove the still dire need for radical activism what do you say to fellow feminist critics of yours who say you know that kind of approach is policing whats authentically feminist its its making feminism too narrowly defined it doesnt give women enough individuality so radical the radical and radical feminism just means to get at the root it doesnt mean extreme. All it means is to look at feminism as a collective Political Movement for the liberation of all women and so thats why i talk about moving away from personal choices of focus and personal empowerment as a focus because people can make personal choices as much as they want but how does that contribute to the liberation of all women is the question well let me put that question to jimi and let me also ask you this jimi youve spoken about feminisms as a plural that addresses quote a need to be more expansive about the definition of feminism if for example women choose to work in industries traditionally viewed as harmful objectifying sex work pornography is that a choice that theyve made thats advancing womens liberation equality in your view because some would say it is. I believe personally that you know there needs to be a distinction that is made between Human Trafficking and also people who participate in the sex industry in a variety of ways based on their own choices and their consent and we can look at social systems that would lead us to be in situations that could be object of finding not saying that they are for all people who choose to work in that industry but we also erase the experiences of people who say that this is about their own selfdetermination and autonomy and i really find it problematic to be in the business of policing choices that women are saying that they are making for whatever their reasons are to survive and take care of their family wants to be critical of choices and to talk about the context that surround and influence those choices isnt policing so feminists who are critical of the sex trade are not criticizing the women in the sex trade theyre not saying youre doing something immoral youre doing something wrong but we see it as part of a larger context so we understand things like colonialism imperialism capitalism. And of course patriarchy and you know White Supremacy racism those all play into the choices that women are making to participate in the sex trade and there isnt this clear line between trafficking and prostitution or what some call sex work the line is very blurred you know theres not so if a woman who works in the sex and says to you i made a choice im happy to be here its a feminist choice what would you say to them well i would say the fact that one woman is having what she says is a positive experience doesnt change the larger implications of the sex trade what the existence of a sex trade means which is around you know male entitle mint. And i wouldnt say it was a feminist choice because they dont understand how her choice to sell sex liberates other women liberates women as a collective i dont know what that contributes towards ending patriarchy. One thing i would like to share is that i havent had that experience of working in that industry so i cant speak to what every womans experiences but i can say that what i think is most important is that they do define their experiences on their terms and also share a collective story of what that experience may be i think you know being a part of an organization. Could those experiences be delayed some minister experiences. In my first section and my view yes because i believe in a variety of approaches to feminism do i personally fundamentally believe that liberation will come when we dismantle patriarchy capitalism White Supremacy and imperialism yes but i also know that different people have different experiences and theories of change about how to get to liberation and expression the end times like now with the rise of authoritarianism and terrorism around the world im interested in creating bridges to talk with other feminists about how we can build in spaces where we have Common Ground i think that if were going to say you know if if its her personal experience that her personal experience is empowering or liberating therefore maybe the sex trade is fine maybe its even feminist i think that that argument doesnt work because what if a woman who is being abused at home says my experience is fine i dont understand it as abuse i dont experience it it is abuse im fine are we going to say that man isnt abusive if a woman is raped and she says its fine i feel fine about my experience are we going to say well thats not abusive thing that this man did the harmful thing that this man did of course not what were talking about is what men are doing to women and you said in the paul stewart you know you disagree with the idea quote that if you simply think a thing is feminist it becomes feminist for the sake of all of you is what you cross the world what makes something so missiles your definition so feminism is a Political Movement to liberate women from the system of patriarchy and male supremacy so i think that in order for a thing to be feminist it has to contribute to that goal jimmy would you agree with the service my question to meghan would be. Who decides because i think that one of the things for example just going back to the question that you mentioned before around if someone experienced abuse but that wasnt abuse happen and they didnt experience it as such i agree that those systemic problems should be addressed but what concerns me is that when we focus our critiques in a way that we promote stigma in a culture that already undermines womens voices and experiences or when we focus our critics in a way that contributes to the politics of respectability then we actually further silence peoples experiences and make it harder for them to get access to the support they need and one reason ill say this for example when we are talking about the sex industry is that criminalization for example is an issue that im very concerned about as a woman of color and so i have a lot of concerns about furthering stigma and also normalizing a narrative that could actually be dangerous and threaten peoples lives so feminists support the decriminalization of prostituted people know from innocent argues that prostituted people should be criminalized thats what were all fighting for and you know im not sure how feminists contribute to stigma by criticizing systems of power there are reasons that its sexist doesnt calculus at all are not all and to me as i mentioned stigma used weve talked about sexual component before on the other come on the kind of other end of the spectrum you have muslim women some muslim women who choose to cover their faces with a veil with a niqab and theres a lot of liberal feminist women in europe and from who have all due to get so even called for. In the name of feminism in the name of challenging. The oppression of women and the lot of those women who wear those sprays those are luke who defended on feminist ground to say were doing this because its our choice we want to do this would you stone them well i think for a lot of women who arent living in the west its not a choice and so i thing. But we should be taking that into account so if youre not in saudi arabia but youre in front you know somebody wants to face fell out of choice i would never say that she should not be allowed to make that choice and i do think we should we need to again talk about the larger context for that choice and you know those five minutes we do need to be critical of of all massage any and all sexism whether thats rooted in religion or culture or whatever but no i wouldnt support a ban i want to address this because i am an american but i grew up in saudi arabia and i have learned so much from very transformative feminists in saudi arabia and all over the middle east some of whom choose to wear head job and some who dont and i believe that in this instance most of the critique that i hear about people who choose who are not coerced to cover has been mainly from white women who are police saying. The way that other women around the world are adorning themselves and representing themselves and so i think that we also need to really deconstruct this when it comes to race and. Also when it comes to perturb and to really talk about it in a nuanced way to be honest about men and something is amiss at all to kill in your website and i get some discomfort which says never before have we seen so many men claiming to be feminists if men love third wave feminism and they do its because they knew full well it will not seek to see the use of you should definitely i mean i think that the reason why men love third wave feminism is because it promotes the idea of women can self objectify and thats empowering in that if we choose to you know where stilettos and cosmetic surgery and participate in pornography then its all feminist i mean it doesnt challenge male power at all so of course men like those kinds of feminisms. I differ in that opinion i really feel like the men in my life including the father who raised me were engaged in sin as them and present day feminism because they see a place for themselves in it and an Inclusive Movement that recognizes that none of us will get free when patriarchy still remains intact when White Supremacy still remains intact for example discussions that are happening within third wave and beyond conversations around toxic masculinity are also talking about how it harms men and how it puts men into a limited and narrow standard that doesnt allow them to be in the fullness of their Human Experience so i really think that the feminism that i show up for has nothing to do with male validation it has to do with inclusion and also collective labor liberation i was when we were sort of briefly because last time i think that men can be i was i know lots of men who are really amazing feminists is my point is that feminism is about women and so i think its important to Center Womens needs and womens. Voices and i think that this movement should be led by women and i think that men can support the movement and i think that men can ally with feminist but they should not be central to the conversation and they should not be central to the Political Movement that is feminism migron to me it will have to leave it there thank you both for joining me in the arena i think thats our show for what weve got next week. On counting the cost china two point zero hour president xi jinping wants to reboot the economy with ai and robotics look at why i do it all makes is causing tension along the river nile plus the u. K. s e. U. Divorce is breaks it failing counting the cost at this time. Outside that western centric sphere of influence were able to bring a different perspective to global that. When you peel away the list of cove a minute tree in the financial dog and you see the people in those words and his policies are affecting see the emotional faces the situation theyre living in thats when all the us can identify with the story. News has never been more available its a constant barrage the bit with every day but the message is a simplistic you have the brain a good logical rational crazy monster and misinformation is rife dismissal and does not well documented accusations and evidence is part of genocide the listening post provides a critical counterpoint challenging Mainstream Media narratives at this time on aljazeera