Brussels trying to restart stalled breaks it talks to resume a is calling for urgency on resolving the rights of e. U. Citizens in the u. K. After it leaves the bloc theres the headlines tuesday with aljazeera inside story is next ill have the news after you straight after that thanks for watching. Spains has its going to take away catalonia is autonomy as the regional leader ignores a deadline to abandon secession plans whats next for the catalan separatists and how will madrid impose its writ this is inside story. A low there on james its a showdown with implications for not just spain but for separatist aspirations across europe even as the European Union faces marathon negotiations over brics it madrid would be imposing direct rule on the autonomous region for the First Time Since spain returned to democracy in the late one nine hundred seventy s. A special Cabinet Meeting is jew on saturday to trigger the process suspending catalonians autonomy but the catalan president has threatened to the formal independence in the Regional Parliament if madrid doesnt hold talks colors push them all claims widespread support ninety percent of those who voted in the referendum earlier this month wanted to secede but just over forty percent of eligible voters cast their ballots and many opponents of secession boycotted the referendum heres what the Spanish Government spokesman said. Fatalities from one of the Central Government of spain noted this morning the failure of the president of the cattle and government to answer the very clear request as to whether he would proclaim independence of the tone of this community in the absence of a clear response we note that he has not answered our request and therefore we will continue procedure of triggering article one five five of the constitution to restore legality in catalonia. To discuss this further lets bring on our panel of guests in barcelona we have albert royal hes the secretary general of Public Diplomacy council of catalonia in london we have paul white way is director of the London Office of the Nonprofit Advisory Group independent diplomat an organization that has previously advised the Catalan Government also in barcelona is edward roig hes a professor of constitutional law at the university of barcelona he also served as Deputy Director of the Prime Ministers cabinet in madrid welcome to you all edward maybe i could start with you because youre an expert on constitutional law neither side here seems to be backing down how grave is this for spain and for its constitution when its maybe mauls to grieve at tech and spanish constitution we have had things one hundred Seventy Eight since our present constitution was adopted and there its for sure the most stressing. The situation for a constitutional law from from that moment on. Really we are stealing expecting that maybe we would have some kind of step back catalogue authorities and specially in the last the. State of spain show for it is half half expressed we said that they expected the cutoff or it is well go back by going to elections to new york at all in elections in the next two months that would be maybe. A careerist and the least grief of their of the solutions and the exit ways for for today albert let me ask you also in barcelona how worried you are about the situation and actually your cattle an official about your own position because theyve already been some arrests. Well i will say theyre very worried especially about let me have been hearing from. People will react if there is a suspension coming from the spanish. Spanish is the dish and i suspect. Im sure it is. An escalation of the phrase is. That some of the way to tackle a political conflict. Instead of trying to deescalate the situation by doing this the government of spain. And i think the people will react to learn if you take to the streets to defend. Democracy makes me. Quite upset certainly. In london give us the Bigger Picture e. U. Leaders are meeting right now is this going to be their agenda will they be talking about this. I think its very likely that e. U. Leaders will discuss it at least amongst themselves these developments present quite a dilemma for the European Union democracy lies at the heart of the principles which have brought these states together and in addition a number of these states are themselves the results of processes of selfdetermination which european states have endorsed at the same time there is the issue of territorial integrity and nation states essentially do not like the idea of states being broken up because they fear that it could happen to themselves and therefore theyre very careful about setting precedents im sure that the european leaders would much rather this problem would go away but at the moment it seems to continue to be set on a path to confrontation which sadly is going to lead to more uncertainty and i think some economic damage to spain and and to catalonia before it is resolved well we know that the government in madrid is going to have a Cabinet Meeting taking place on saturday morning and they are likely then they say theyre going to trigger article one five five the socalled Nuclear Option what is it well the Central Government in madrid can take what the constitution calls all measures necessary to rivendell autonomous region from breaking the law article one five five has never been applied before so its consequences arent clear the Spanish Governments options include suspending the cattle and government and removing its leaders including the regional president push them all government leaders in madrid could also take control of the Catalan Police force which defied call dollars to close voting stations for the referendum madrid could also call for snap Regional Elections edward you know the constitution well give us your reading of what the cabinet could do by invoking article one five five on saturday. Well im sure that what the government would like to do was to to ask for Regional Elections as soon as possible that would be the first option because its the mall store or the least grief option for the for the Spanish Government it would not. Suspend really year catalonia so ptolemy but just ask for a new election trying to see if there is a real majority and a huge majority under the independent dispositions but the problem for doing that is that the Spanish Government knows that putting article hundred fifty five into practice would probably give them more and more support and more vaults for independent these parties and the Spanish Government think probably that they need a bit more time in order to have more chances to explain to the catalan people we chart positions of the Spanish Government the spanish parties and thats why they probably think that its not a good idea to have immediate elections after putting into practice article one hundred fifty five so what are they going to add words for a very short are they going to do that what are they going to do. Well we dont know really but probably they are trying to gain some time to win time in order to. To have Better Options or better offers for cattle and people in order to having cattle and autonomy suspended for some longer time lets say five months six months and in this five or six months they should try to offer the cattle and citizens not to the cattle and parties but to the cattle and citizens and new prospect before on constitutional reform or on legislative reforms in order to improve catalonians autonomy and get along as financing system without having to give a response to all that quest for independence the question of course is if that time will be enough the first question maybe if there will be such a time because nobody knows what will happen get on a five hundred fifty five is put into practice and maybe there will be loads of people into the streets and there will be need off for balis and security forces. To war to contain the walls and those that want. So thats those are all important questions for the future im sure the Spanish Government would like to have elections as soon as possible but they know that elections should give a different result from the one day they expect to having in just weeks and thats why they will probably wait for some months more. I know were asking you all of you to look into a crystal ball and its a case of action and then reaction but albert how do you use the things developing after saturdays Cabinet Meeting the government says its going to involve invoke article one five five what then happens in your view. Rather present after the owner has already explained that if this plan is a government proceed with a suspension of the catalan handle. He will effect the suspension of the effects of the declaration of independence i mean that theres going to be a formal declaration of independence as a response to the lack of daylight coming from from madrid. So at that point as early as saturday catalonia could become an independent nation not one recognized by spain not one recognized by the new but the people there would have a form of independence thats your view. Yes i think thats what may happen in the coming days i dont know whether its going to be on saturday itself but certainly in the coming days and we have to see what kind of reaction there is out there coming from the foreign capitals we know that there are several capitals very much committed to the right of selfdetermination of peoples of the peoples so we expect some capitals to start reacting to this new reality once it emerges yeah but not just the reaction of other capitals the reaction from madrid is the one you must be fearing there already been arrests of two prominent figures involved in the referendum do you fear a further crackdown. We cannot rule that we have seen how the spanish for instance the Spanish Police can restively against innocent people of course there were following instructions coming from the from the government of spain. So its a bit. You know. Its quite complex to see what may happen in the coming days but it seems quite clear across. Quite bluntly that he will do whatever it takes to stop this political process now the question remains where is from oil. Ready to do. Does it mean that here ready to send in troops here in catalonia to suppress this aggression to arrest elected politicians. Will they use the Paramilitary Police who are still here in barcelona and in Tahrir Warner who aggressively here innocent people three weeks ago in the referendum ourselves of their nation we dont have this crystal ball but its quite tricky the whole situation edward if we pursue for now just a discussion of this worst Case Scenario one of the big problems for madrid would then be the Regional Police the catalan Regional Police some seventeen thousand officers who would do a report that is a problem for madrid isnt it. Well its its an easy youre question from the juridical point of view but a very difficult one from a political point of view from a pure legal point of view theres no question. There to go hundred fifty five orders and cattle and all for eighty two orders which the Spanish Government may enact upon them so or acting in acting article one hundred fifty five or putting it into practice means that the catalan polish should obey the orders coming from a treat the question of course is if the catalan policies will do that and how the Spanish Government will warrant that orders will be really obeyed we really dont know how that will be done as an example we can think on what happened in two thousand and eleven when the Spanish Government decided to militarize. At the airports in order to make them really obey the orders of the Spanish Government and to punish them with a military justice called if they dont obey those orders that could be of course they wont be dont again with the with the catalan policies we dont know if that would be enough we really dont know if the catalan polish will really do not or will do not obey the orders of the Spanish Government. We suppose that some of the of the Catalan Police officers will obey the orders of the Spanish Government and we dont know what they will do in general but i think all of the all of the protagonists of the Spanish Government even the Catalan Government are convinced that maybe we will not reach that point in the sense that someone will first. Ask for elections be it the Spanish Government be it the Catalan Government and maybe those elections will be understood as different elections by everyone so the Spanish Government will think those are just ultra nomic elections in maybe the Catalan Government will think those are new constituent elections after declaring independence but in fact that would be new elections and the new parliament where maybe there would be a new. A new maturity and a new political life to advance which will then lead us to this kind of problems were discussing. During its only half hour but has been shaking his head is what youre saying all this. Its a question here. To hear this kind of comments so if they dont like this majority just force a new election and expect a new majority. Mr me your representative of the Central Government to catalonia has already sent. If there is a new election for independents could be their way to try to impose and create a new majority by. Ideas by a. Democratic proposal like this one just its not a problem that you like or you dont like the majority you have a problem and its a problem did you have a majority in the parliament that has clearly stated the day do not be consideration of the country and the laws that state for that same parliamentary majority and you dont really know. How much majority is that because you cant get a referendum which was stated without. Security and you know how many people vote. And so one thats why reason. For ok you have your. Word youll say very quickly please yes that was the reason why we wanted to have a referendum on a good referendum just to confirm the absolute majority which is which already exist in the capital one element supporting independence to confront the majority through a single issue which is a referendum i cannot understand why they did not accept that and instead of using legalistic arguments they should be already talking politics proposing something to fix this problem instead of just using thread somebody got its ok id like to bring paul back in weve heard a scenario paul today we could have the article of the constitution invoked we could have a declaration of independence legally its. Catalonia then independent legally is catalonia in the European Union just give us the big picture if catalonia declares independence unilaterally on the weekend it will not be recognized by other e. U. States. It will not automatically be out of the European Union as far as i understand it my understanding is that spain would have to initiate a process of expelling it and thereby rather paradoxically actually recognizing its its sort of a separate status it would not be i think a good option for catalonia to go down the u. T. I. Route we know that countries which have declared u. T. I. In the past can sometimes wait long periods of time before they are recognised my organization for example is work with somaliland which declared independence unilaterally in one thousand nine hundred one and it is not being recognized yet but i think there is a way out of this crisis and the way out is actually for madrid to copy londons example and to allow a legal referendum on the issue of independence for catalonia the advantage of that is that would be a great demonstration of madrids democratic credentials and it would allow possibly for the first time the arguments in favor of remaining part of spain to be properly aired in a properly structured campaign towards that referendum with lots of debates about the pros and cons of independence and would enable everybody to have their say of course there is a risk that at the end of that period of time madrid could lose that argument we dont know unless it is actually tried but that is the democratic approach to dealing with this problem edward what about that idea the stockland model Prime Minister roy takes a bit of a gamble and calls a referendum on his terms and then potentially either wins or loses. Yes that was a theoretical solution some years ago maybe it was the best solution some years ago i would have agreed with that but the fact is that not only president but more than seventy percent of the Spanish Parliament does not agree with that solution and thats the big difference with the scotties with the scottish experience British Parliament decided to accept that solution that was a political decision by the British Parliament the Spanish Parliament has not decided that and at the moment this the cattle in our fortys have not been able to convince the spanish Political Parties to accept that solution so what they think is that the spanish authorities. Could think of that as a solution in the long term not just now probably because they think that the referendum is not a good way to decide this kind of things and i should agree with that and on the second on the second line because they think that the constitution does not alongside referendum in the first they should change the constitution the fact is that cattle in all four of these guys not got to convince them hasnt got to convince more than twenty percent of the Spanish Parliament that such a solution would really work. That is not a feasible solution i would say right at this moment albertz let me just ask you another question about what might happen on saturday youve presented a scenario where we could have a declaration of independence is catalonia ready is it a viable nation i think it is from an economic point of view from a political point of view this is a valuable country and sure. We are sixteen percent of the spanish population but we account for twenty percent of hispanic g. D. P. Even males explain why admit it is being so stubborn when it comes to the catalan issue we are happy to negotiate the way forward. Always happy to happy to negotiate. And. Also if there is a different nation of independence im sure the president puts them on will come up with a new proposal of negotiations with new talks with some of it in order to discuss the best way to implement the creation of independence because that should be done around in a reasonable way. Also Legal Certainty to all player to workers to citizens to underprice is. The best way to do that. Till now the best way to do this is through a thought through negotiations i cannot understand why its coming to terms and accept the call politics and accept to propose something. He was saying that the referendum is not. Compatible with the spanish constitution. Article preventing. A referendum in fact we already had a referendum for the last ten years ago so we could have a nonbinding referendum list to let people express their political will and. Should appoint Supreme Leader and id like to come back to paul now if we do get a unilateral declaration of independence on saturday how big a crisis is this not just for catalonia in spain but for the whole of the European Union briefly if you campbell. I think this is a pretty big crisis when a major european member like spain has a region which declares u. T. I. And itll send a shock wave i think through European Countries on the other hand you know that that could actually galvanize european leaders into taking some form of action which could contribute to a solution but it would definitely be a shockwave that i do agree that at the very greek crisis as well for the European Union but i would just to stress that that a very big crisis here in the sense that that declaration of independence will not mean that catalonia can be careful like an independent country that will not happen because catalonia does not have. The necessary structures and the necessity will of enough people to do that ok that is all the thank you when you go into the city and there are so much to discuss so i think you do all our guests albert royal paul white way edward roig aljazeera as teams in barcelona and madrid are doing some excellent reporting on this subject watch and read their work on our website aljazeera dot com if you have thoughts on this subject please post them before the crunch day on saturday on our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story or you can use twitter tweet us what you think we are at a. J. Inside story are we back for the next edition of inside story soon until then take care and by from all the teams. My provocative or is it a listen when theyre on line we were in hurricane winds for almost like thirty six hours these are the things that you u. K. 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