They have some, but not some strong personal filling, fate so happened that i was right in the epicenter of this civil miniwar. I found myself, and on the evening of october 3, the morning and afternoon of october 4, in fact, even a Television Camera recorded this randomly, god forbid, who touches you, you children why are you beating me, but this is exactly that same white house, and i saw this one by chance a few years after these. Events, a frame, here with me, it is a symbol for me in many ways of this event, because at this moment, and from the white house, this is already the second half of the day on october 4, people are being taken out of the white house, some were defenders of the white house, some, for some reason beyond his control, ended up in the white house, and the crowd that had gathered outside, a crowd of people who according to some very formal. Sign they are listed as yeltsins supporters, they were not yeltsins supporters , they came as if they were spectators to the civil war, and their fierce hatred for the people, completely inexplicable to me, for the people who were taken out of there, is all this is the formation the people through whom the defenders of the white house are being led, these were all civilians, residents of the surrounding houses, and i lived there, well, actually, i was born there, thats why i ended up there in the neighboring house, and these people, at that moment i was ready just well, and not only ready, in general, to disperse them harshly, why am i saying this, that this outbreak of mutual fierce hatred for some reason that is not very clear to me, this is a very important moment for me, i still have an answer no, because i dont understand who it is, with whom fought, who fought for what, who shot at each other for what. Because when the evening before, on the evening of october 3, i found myself with my friend on today, i wont talk for a long time, especially now, its so personal, so that i can talk to the guests later, i specially posted two on telegram today before the broadcast, i think a year ago i wrote a very large text on my website, long, listing all these personal circumstances, how i saw the third person at night, being at the white house, what happened on october 4th in the afternoon, whoever is interested, go to. You are reading, but for me, well, because , of course, you wont forget this, yes, but today, when before the broadcast, well, i updated this text, the most important thing, what i read for myself from there today from my own text is this feeling of the evening of october 3, when gaidar called on muscovites to gather at the moscow soviet, and alexander lyubimov, vlad lisyev and several other people sat there with them, calling no one is going anywhere walk, stay at home, and so on, and i i understood that gaidar was calling on people to go to the bridge council, as if simply , for what or against what, but it was impossible not to go, i was there, and i absolutely, as they say, confidently testify that 90 of the people gathered there were neither for the right nor for. These were people who basically simply did not understand what was happening, but they understood that something wrong was happening , and when even in the evening closer to 1112 at night, they went so crazy rumors that troops were entering the city began to form certain groups or detachments, lets meet the troops halfway, i asked the question, lets meet halfway. For whatever purpose, no one had an idea to resist these troops, that is, to fight with them, maybe someone had, but these people were not noticeable, that is, the troops that could or should have entered the city were not perceived by these people like some kind of enemy troops, so to speak, under pressure, and so on and so forth, but these were not people who came there to protest en masse against the white house, thats why i say, there where the battle was going on, where there were people with an ideological or some other position, there was incredible bitterness, and many did not fully understand what it was , but in the end we all went through it together one way or another, it happened what happened, and the answer to the question of who it is, who and what then in october of ninetythree, who and what won, or did not win, but, lets say, overturned, it remains important simply because that we then went due to a coincidence of circumstances , regardless of who. To this, who to what side was, we went in some direction, the one we went, of course, largely under the influence of this event, that is, in this sense it was decisive at that moment, well, if you like, a fork in the road that could probably be different , and we went where we went, then they will tell me, well, history doesnt know the subjunctive mood, history doesnt know the subjunctive mood, but history knows such a thing as reflection, right . And when you look back on this now, 30 years later, you can more calmly, more or less its less calm to discuss what it was, and what happened as a result of it, based on how much of an impact it had on where we are now, or not where we are now, in my opinion, this is very important, because i say again, this is all the more important now that we are facing a very difficult test and i think that difficult tests still await us, this moment of maximum mutual understanding, at least about our past, it is very important, now we will break for advertising later with my guests, each of whom, due to their age, lived it like this to say in their own way, in the lives of each of them, this was certainly also an event, so we will try to discuss it, the only thing i dont want, i will try very hard is this. To avoid all my guests, ill ask you that we wont today give assessments to those people who acted then, based on the day of that time, because we lived these 30 years, and those who acted then did not live these 30 years, so lets try to remain who we are today, without forgetting ourselves then, now a short advertisement and lets continue. In the country a legal situation is taking shape. Russia is driven into a political impasse. Yeltsin himself hesitated for a long time. Today yours is dangerous, doubly dangerous without power. However, literally on the eve of the bloody october events, he agreed to reelection. And one of khazbulatovs deputies simply put this letter from yeltsin in his pocket. Nothing official. 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Tinkov, hes the only one. Now on the Yandex Market prices are even lower, up to 30 . We painted them green. Buy it. You have a free card with 10 cashback on everything. Apply for a debit card for life at vtb. Ru or at a bank office. Time will tell the program we continue to work live and discuss the events of thirty years ago on october 34, 1993, which as events took place in the city of moscow, the capital of our homeland, but in fact took place , of course, for all of us, for the whole country, because formally very parties to this conflict was the president of the russian federation, Boris Nikolayevich yeltsin, and the Supreme Council of the country, that is, this is something that concerns everyone, although in fact for us today the question is between whom and whom, and most importantly, between what and what that conflict was, and accordingly, what it is. For us today in terms of results, it is very significant that if , for example, we remember the events of october 3rd in moscow, look at the footage of demonstrations and rallies, from which this actually began on the 3rd , well, these events, when people broke through the police cordon, in general, of course, but judging by the composition of the flags and slogans of the people who came out there, we can very roughly say that it was, say, such, no, not a surrendered soviet an alliance that did not give up, supporters of the soviet union, the communist idea, soviet power and so on that did not give up, but at the same time there were such people inside the white house, to say. That it was president ial power and not president ial power is also strange , rutskoi at that time was the vicepresident of the russian federation, that is, also this way and that, to say that they were. red and white is also strange, because inside the white house there were people who were , and many of them remained quite red, and there were those that were remained quite white, therefore, strictly speaking, from the point of view of us today, after all, in your opinion, between what and what at that moment there was a clash, from the point of view of who we are today, as far as this is reflected in our life today, you know, as a person who 30. Years ago, exactly 30 years ago, tried unsuccessfully to smear ostankin, i want to present my version of events, what was it . Well, first of all, i ll remind you of three small quotes from very important people of that time, the first quote is a quote from yeltsin, it sounds like this, this is the president russia, he told the regions, take as much sovereignty as you can, the second quote, a quote from foreign minister kozyrev, who said, russia has no national interests, it was, it was, the third quote from chubais, those who do not fit into the market can die, well i dont know if this is true or not, but this quote is well known, these three quotes there was a group of people who can be called russian patriots, they were red, they were imperial, by the way, red imperial flags were everywhere there, i testified, yes these people didnt like these components, they didnt like the ideas of the collapse of russia into regions, this. Yeltsin about sovereignty, they didnt like the surrender of all Foreign Policy positions, kozyrevs words about the lack of national interests, and they didnt like the words of chubais, which in fact personified social apartheid, which was established in russia. And these people, russian patriots, they found a certain political gap that arose at the time of the conflict between the executive legislative authorities, they rushed into this gap and essentially staged a russian patriotic uprising at the time of the constitutional crisis, this uprising was, of course, it was very weak, very few people, this group of people who realized what was happening was actually small, it was mainly the moscow intelligentsia, i must say, not the old ampilov women who were also there, honor to them, but in fact these people, they came out to protest against these trends, and this group was crueler. First from machine guns, then from tanks, shot, demonstratively, and for a long time these people, they were in the camp of frustration, then the idea of patriotism, the idea of sovereignty, the idea of our russian subjectivity, it prevailed over time, and now these three flags, they hang over the gulf of finland, three why , because the tricolor russian flag still hung over the don during the uprising, there were also imperial blackgold. Blackgoldwhite flags and naturally red flags, these three flags now hang over the gulf of finland like some a demonstration of the moral victory of the defenders of the house of the council, that is, in other words, you are telling me that after 30 years we can state that the patriots are russian, and it doesnt matter what color they are, imperial, red, and so on. And they, having lost the battle 30 years later, as events showed, in general, uh, won the battle , well, some of them simply, that is, we, we, you tell me the following, that we have approximately arrived where you called for us to come then, this is so, just some of them, they died, they, they fell under bullets, under machine guns, they didnt come, it was us who came, so, its like those who didnt come, they already remained forever, but they, their sacrifice was not in vain. Although in the process of the Historical Movement it turned out that they were in vain, we came out in vain, people fell and died, but now it turns out that no, but where we are now is the result of what was what you call we will rise, or is this the logic of history herself, regardless of anything, brought us to where we are now, where we have the imperial and red and russian flags and so on, i think that the second is more likely that this the logic of history and the mysticism of history, but nevertheless borodinian at once. Maxim, i like artyom better, that philosophical and conciliatory tone that you set in your previous one, Andrei Aleksandrovich in his speech didnt say anything, lets say, conflicting either, no, its hard to say, in fact, when people shoot. Friend, well, at that moment they were shooting at each other, theres no time for it, well then , at the beginning ill roughly answer, andrey, and then ill move on to yours, well, sort of in your way, which i like better, more impresses, but here , we are in ostankino, we have an Underground Passage from our building to ask3, another building, and there are memorial plaques in honor of those employees of the Television Center who were killed by those who were the first to use force, and the first to use force were those, as andrei said, who 30 years ago went on the assault, and i also remember how quite. Recently we were sitting here, Drinking Coffee with one boss, a big boss here in ostankino, she recalled how when she came out, these days from stankin, here in this crowd told her, we will soon come to power, we will beat you, you jewish face, in a different way, a different word was used, for some reason these people did not dissociate themselves from barkashov, from the Russian National unity who were with them , so there is no need, it seems to me, to present here now. These saints are white and fluffy, and the other side is clearly to blame, i like your approach better, because the most important thing that we avoided then was a big civil confrontation and that so that our country is torn into pieces, just like now, 30 years later, we have avoided it, in your opinion, this civil confrontation is like a civil war, well, Something Like that on such a scale that it would spill out over the whole country. Or we avoided some kind of contradiction and some kind of conflict, which, as Andrei Aleksandrovich says, well, then for some time, was still built into our development, to some extent, maybe it was built in, even as i remember myself in those years , and i, unlike many who reviewed my views, i do not renounce myself, the then young one, yeltsin is my favorite president , for whom i always voted, and there i would have ended up, in general, well, probably, but well, in different trenches in relation to those with whom we are these 30 we lived for years, then you know how interesting life turns out, and vlad shuriggin, who comes here, we were in different camps then, maybe, well, i dont really know how to shoot there, but maybe thats where we would have ended up, so yes, in the line of fire, not now, lets finish, just now hes my friend, we communicate with him, even we got infected with covid one day in one place because we sat and drank there , we are friends, and it all went away, you know, and its very important that russia was able to not slide into this civil confrontation, because sometimes for Something Like this, for any people, but for our imperial, generally large people, it is especially important not to forget that there is such a concept like oblivion, there are some pages that need to be turned over, and there is no need to reopen this wound, we dont we remember how around 1900, how bloody we had there was a showdown with the chinese, we do not dedicate a tv story to this, and rightly so, to the fact that we had bad things with chechnya with the chechens, we and the chechens also showed wisdom, we stepped over this painful page in our joint history and move forward, and here the same thing inside our country, it seems to me, now its not entirely correct to say that we won, because in fact, how they won, putin was in a different camp, if they had come to power, we wouldnt know at all , i dont want to argue with you, but if so youre talking about a premilitary or philosophical or whatever way, in fact, where we ended the first conversation with Andrei Aleksandrovich, he just concluded that at that moment one of the parties, lets say, defeated the other , in the end, the logic of history brought us all there together, as you are now saying, that you were having a drink with vlad shurygin, who defended the white house, and if you had turned up, then no one won, they didnt win, what am i, i didnt ready for mine, look, look, notice, i after all, i didnt ask the question, so to speak, ready or not ready, im asking what they fought for, what they fought for, here you are, being in those trenches, and for yeltsin, you would have fought if you were in those okups, for what and against what . Today, having matured 30 years, i realized that the most important thing is to not allow Something Like this to happen in our country now, no, as andrei said , but a patriotic uprising, no patriotic uprising, we saw a semblance of this uprising in june, we liked it, we didnt like it , no democratic uprising, there should be no bloody uprising in my country, and yet, you came to this conclusion, but when you say that at that moment you were left and did not change your point of view, and you would have been in the trenches that would have been well, the opposite, im just wondering if. you say that you havent changed, you would be in these paybacks, fighting for what, against berkashov, makashov, fighting against the restoration of the soviet union, as symbols of a failed experiment on mine country, thats all, then that is, that is wait, that is, you, makashov, i understand, yes, this is what i said about how there was such, like, advice, i dont want now, listen, many. These people are not there, but roughly speaking, you tell me that you were against the attempt at soviet revenge, but the barkashovites were not attempts at soviet revenge, the barkashovites were completely, and so you understand, look how much cave nationalism, everyone came together, you know, the remarks, absolutely, that means, the first thing about the conversation about the civil war is always, so that it would be, if, i generally always deny them, well lets not fantasize there, that means the second point, that means this is what you say, who started vostankin first, there was no investigation, these are your speculations, there were no prosecutorial actions that would have determined it, because it was stopped, this is an investigation , the event is still secret, this is your personal opinion, please do not broadcast it as a fact, well , you started the uprising, you started the revolt, but we werent the first to start shooting, this is true, moreover, as far as i am familiar with the facts, the investigation involved certain snipers, who shot in both directions and about these snipers, as i understand it, the investigation came to nothing, i know about the snipers for sure, because when on the evening of october 4 i left the white house, which had already been taken before my eyes, both ruskov and khazbullatov were taken out of there i was standing right next to this bus in the crowd when they were being taken out of there, then i got out of there in the evening and already on kalininsky prospect i walked towards moscow, smolenskaya metro station, respectively, so you understand, this is such a difficult question, i after all, im talking about what remains of the conflict in us today, and what may have sprouted outside the conflict, you tell me, here you are with shurygin, you seem to be starting to go in different directions, then higher. Thats why this is not my conciliatory tone, this is, lets say, a conciliatory tone in a certain sense of history, which we know who controls, thats why i m asking what we must today, if we must understand something and reflect on ourselves, about myself back then, so as not to. But figure out what to figure out next, after all, well, i dont know, 10 years ago it was conceivable to hang these three flags side by side, i think not, we have come to this now, yes, that means something is happening to us, as a result of some analysis of our of the past, i guess you were about 15 years old at that time, probably yes, literally there at the barricades you turned fifteen on the barricades, so what brought you to those barricades and that, accordingly, you are already today, fortyfive years old, thats all about all this based on todays tomorrow day, you think, you understand, you think its important, i was very as a politicized teenager, i Read Everything i could read, in the period of ninetyone from ninetyone to ninetythree, i rather sympathized with a democrat, yeltsin and a democrat, but on 21 it was as if the world had collapsed for me, september, yes, this is when elections, parliament and parties are not democrats, they are for dictatorship, this is when one boss decides without consulting anyone, now it turned out that the main democrat abolished the democratic institution, with the stroke of a pen, abolished it, according to the new constitution, which has not yet been adopted, but the very next day i was in the ranks of the defenders of parliament, yeah, that is, in general, it didnt matter to me under what flags people came there, but those who are remembered today, under what, people instinctively felt what was happening something is not right, uhhuh, this is not right , they, as if without language, tried to express uh with their. With their own in different forms of protest, it was, it was an emotional, aesthetic rejection of what was happening, uhhuh, uh , and mm, here is that amazing, controversial conglomerate really moscow intellectuals, some mummers, some activists, some kind of incomprehensible agents who stood there and, as always , join every revolution, no matter what kind of revolution it is, and people who were not averse to according to marauders and so on and so forth, but always in history, remembering further, i understood that i was very much worried about the defeat on the fourth, after it was all over, i was with a megaphone pulled out of the white house, which means that to this day i still have it somewhere at home as an artifact, so to speak, i came home, i was experiencing defeat very hard, how could this be . Well, we were for the truth, we were on the right side, why did we lose to these ghouls , how could it have turned out, what if we are for the truth, but we lost, that was very painful, i spent several months trying to understand this, and the conclusions that i made then predetermined in many ways the entire next 30 years of my life, but tell me, please, uh, well, since now you are older and you are already reflecting all this in a different system coordinates, but then, when you were 15, it was still youthful adrenaline mixed with some political position, or it was still a political position, why, because, well, you say that i was a democrat, and this was against democracy and thats why i went to defend the white house, but i know that among many of the defenders of the white house, there were quite a lot of my friends there, the word democracy was a dirty word, but it didnt matter to me, thats how it is, well thats it consciousness was organized, i say, i remember myself at that time, i said that these people have the right to speak, well, like walter, i dont agree with you, but im ready to give my life for your right to speak, so now i understand, well, so youthful. Maximalism, thats how i dont care, but i didnt have this desire to just get into trouble and shoot somewhere, that is, you didnt care who you were with for democracy against its persecutors, even if you were for democracy in the same trench with, say, general mokashov for whom this was a dirty word and so on, so accordingly, now he the same question now, looking at all this there philosophically, politically. Technologically, methodologically, whatever, was it still about democracy and not democracy, or was it still about Something Else . I insist that the correct words to understand the essence of the conflict were not found then, and they still have not really been found now, that is, the conflict was largely aesthetic, just like brodskys already mentioned aesthetics of mathematics. And also the mother of politics, you see, this is what i see on the screen now, well, soso aesthetics with yes, with on both sides, these were very strangelooking people, according to modern standards, just some kind of homeless people, on both sides, in the crowd at the mass council there were exactly the same, declassed, generally very poorly dressed, very poor soviet people with rotten teeth, and. And at the same time they were for the soviet union, against those who tried to do the opposite, on the contrary, here i dont make a distinction, i also have many friends who stood at the moscow soviet on the opposite side and also asked for weapons, yeah, thats with with whom i later worked, made friends, then drank, thats all, thats it, thats it, if why its important to talk about it today, that is, it means that you have today for sure, perhaps you have then then. There is still more in common than what pushes your foreheads together, this is, well, its like an attempt to determine what brought us together then and what has now brought us together again, this is the most important question, not about then, but about whats next , because you, too , are talking about this outbreak, so to speak, of rage, yes, it happened very quickly, why is it still very important for us to understand this about ourselves, here reason. Because, well, you are talking about aesthetics, i would say that this is the reason for this outburst of rage, it was somewhere in the depths of the mentality, not even in the superficial political orientation, in the depths of the mentality, both. And others, they were vehemently for something or against something, this is something, deep down in the soul of a russian, in the broad sense of a russian, as if a person, yes, it is very important to understand why, because what cnn, this the outburst of our rage, killing each other, for the sake of either aesthetics or something, was joyfully broadcast for two days in live broadcast, you see, this was in any case some kind of victory for them. So these are the reasons for the inner rage in us at that time and most importantly, these reasons for the inner rage disappeared, they disappeared somewhere, their history was ground up, or we understood something about ourselves, about our country, about democracy, about aesthetics, about progress and so on, thats my question, history hasnt ground anything yet, i so, i would say that. Then the feeling of me then, that some kind of thing was going on at the top in power its a mess, theyre doing something, well, its a shame, its a shame, there it was, there was an emotion, there was a feeling, and maxim yusin will tell you about this, but you werent ashamed next to me, i dont know, there since i was 15 years old, a person really might not have realized this, no matter, but it makes no difference itself, that is, oddly enough, when you address a claim to the authorities, that there is a mess going on there. You dont share, yes, this is the president , look, i, after all , because its clear, you have this fifteenyearold factor, but look, objectively, and you say, i had the feeling that these people are in power, they are doing, well, for a second, but rudskoy, that it was not the power, but khazbullatov, that it was not the power, i explain, everything that was happening as a whole gave rise to the feeling that this is some kind of. Its a shame, by the way, there wasnt much to say. That these people are our leaders, for whom we will now die here, these are our enemies, whom we will kill there, everything that is happening, what was the essence of this disorder, you have now defined for yourself, very clearly, the inability of people who are responsible for where the country is going, agree with each other and organize the process against the backdrop, organize work against the backdrop of how fast the country is, and not only the country, but our life, which we see , we feel is rapidly falling into ruins, this it was visible and felt at the level of the lifestyle of every person and every family, you look at how people are dressed and how they look, well, it is clear that the ninetythird year was not the most wellfed year in the life of our country, as well as the nineties, ninetyone and ninetytwo , its clear how those who he was dressed and looked better, they didnt come there, they, against this background, this muddy , endless, meaningless showdown. Between the president and parliament, between the democrats and the communist, we will move on, but still, yes, this is the question, what, uh, alexey says that these people who are not able to agree among themselves, but i have this question, oh, but there was a desire to come to an agreement, you know, these are these contradictions, there are national, social, aesthetic, you can bury yourself in them, or you can have a big one see the process. And the big process was that russia was pushed into the jaws of globalization, shoved into the jaws, and when this happened, it was pushed there , it seemed to us, russian patriots, that we had historically fatally lost, it was an absolute feeling, it was a total feeling, it didnt give the opportunity to breathe, live, think, love, this is that huge ceiling that presses, she came down, but it turned out that. Russia, she couldnt digest it, she choked, now she died, she died, and we were celebrating now victory, this is the paradox and mysticism of history, well, i would say, i hope that she has already choked, is dying in convulsions, choked on us, about what died with your lips, but its very good that you said this now, showing another line, now i want to add one more line to this conflict that we projected back in the past, that its not the reds there, not just the reds and whites, that means its not just for the soviet union and against the soviet union, but its like some kind of globalization, i think that the majority are from these people we we see everything, i think most of them did not understand at all what globalization is, but they felt, apparently, that they were being shoved somewhere in the wrong place, its true, it exists, you wanted to add something briefly to this, its just there then there were several thousand of us, its a pity. Unhappy people, and now there are 7 billion of us out of eight, who are sitting and waiting for the gogemon to finally screw up and stumble, just at that moment when i. With Andrei Alexandrovich in this second round of conversation, what was fought with then came out and the word globalization was heard, and i think that ill repeat it again, then they would have told me that you know, this is a process happening now, that they are trying to globalize us, so someone intuitively resists, so i immediately naturally looked at your side , so from your point of view, well, i dont know how to categorize you in this sense, but about globalization, almost everything we talk about here, you point to it too, so after all, then in ninetythree year, it was that triumph of globalization, which we choked in the end or whatever it was, no, globalization was just beginning, it was a fork in the road, it was this constitutional crisis, a fork in the road, how are we going to live further, yes, i didnt support either side, although i saw tanks in the garden ring, i had to work, because the collapse of my dream took place a little earlier , when i. Was told to everyone with whom i studied, space is no longer needed, go sell newspapers, to the metro, you are no longer needed here, this is baumska baummonski, yes, vaumska is one of most by the way, now one thing, by the way, maxim, when you say about the year ninetythree, there is yeltsin and so on, this is what many people came with in the year ninetythree, not about democracy and not democracy, with this, i also graduated from the university in the ninetythird year, which i entered in the ninetyeighth, planning to engage in academic science, having, as it were, been assigned to the academy of sciences of the Russian Academy of sciences at the institute of anthropology, for 2 years, in general, i realized that there would be no more science, well, there would be no more, yes , you know, considering that i had a family , child and so on and so forth, that is, where i entered in eightyeight, and where i graduated in ninetythree, as a result of all these wonderful things, it ended, this is very, yes, by the way, important, important, that many of these people who gathered there, by the way, on both sides, had some kind of previous life broken. They didnt understand what new life they were in, well, they were being driven, shoved, and so on, i had to deal with martian project, the soviet martian project, yes, but this one put an end to this project gorbachev and the leadership of the soviet union, so i had nothing to support them, but those who were breaking it too, i still didnt know what it would be, and we saw that this was a fork in the road, where our country would go, like china gradually, preserving public here are the forces of production and socially. Relations to integrate into the world economy, or quickly break everything, as gaidar proposed then, and then you should integrate there, how old were you then, i apologize, 23, are you sure that at 23 you understood that you were at a fork in the road between globalization , Market Economics or so on, or is it you now no, no, then i already understood, but i was, well, my fatherinlaw was quite highranking i saw these two paths, because he was an economist, he was on the restless, chinese path, because scientific thought, economic thought, looked at china as china passed through, began these reforms and how it tried to preserve those production relations and those Socio Economic relations that were transformed gradually, powerfully, without immediately destroying the economy, but, on the contrary, attracting everything that is new, that is, we saw that we were losing economic sovereignty under the control of the americans, yes, we were also losing political sovereignty then how much time later did it take to restore this sovereignty, yes, that s essentially all, the entire term of president putins reign was, in fact, required to solve the problems that arose when we simply gave up. Everything, when we destroyed the best enterprises, destroyed the space industry, the aviation industry, and how difficult and how long, how much more remains to be done to return to the path from which we were led astray, thats how difficult it was for those who did not fit into the market, yes, because i dont know how many people died in moscow, then, but then then millions died who did not fit into the market and were forced to live in poverty. Yeah, but look, you seem to be on a different track, but nevertheless, you go out to the same place, thats where Andrei Aleksandrovich took us, so it turns out that back then in 1993, and we came from this fork, as you say, lets go somewhere we shouldnt have in your opinion, to go, and then at the beginning of the 2000s, without bloody events and without any of these same ones, it began. Look, in fact, globalism is destroying china, exactly. China in 2016 became the beneficiary of this globalization, the beneficiary of the americans, seeing this, began to break the system, we have always been a civilization here, you just realized just how much of a civilization we are, how much the new world order will depend on us, on how much we endure, we lost, and then the Steering Wheel of the prus, and we were moving somewhere, yes, but we all. But we them, lets be honest, we began to lose both the role of the sail and the rudder of the sail, uh, i think that if not in the late seventies, then in the mideighties for sure, and the sail was torn in the ninetyfirst, so already, as it were, thoroughly, in general, the ninetythird year it was no longer about the rudder and not about the sails, it was us without a rudder and without sails that seemed to be carried somewhere, and this apparently was an attempt by hand to some shore , yes, it was felt, it was felt that we were going somewhere without. A landmark, yes, here is an attempt to find this landmark, this path, to unfortunately, it turned out to be for our country, in some way for our economy, the loss of a huge amount of production for many years, the loss of human capital, the loss of production capital, scientific resources, but we are in ninetythree, so you say there at this fork in the road, or now you have introduced a marine theme here, so we have been drifting ever since in the direction where the wave swung in ninetythree, or oh, no, no, we saw reefs, we saw them later in subsequent events, we saw , what maybe, sequentially there, well, i think we realized in 2007 , here is putins munich speech, we will now return to everything, look, you must add right now or tiny, just such a moment that when you say that there yes, we didnt know the word globalization then, but that we intuitively felt something, no, we understood everything, great, without using the word globalization, thats all that was said now, we understood everything perfectly, there was even such a special tent among the defenders, there was a philosophy faculty msu, the whole Philosophy Department was there, we all understood perfectly well what was happening to russia, yeah, now lets switch to advertising and then continue the conversation about how we now understand whats happening to russia, how much of this is related to what happened in ninetythird year or the later consciousness of what happened with the attempt to change this course, do not switch, this is about our life, not only the past, but also the future, us special representative for the recovery of the ukrainian economy, penny pritzker, very nice, very nice, look how she changed at the table, and when she finishes the conversation, zelensky will kneel, because this is a sentence. 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Everything you are interested in is collected in vkk video, even everything show prankster . Yes, even my shows, and not only mine, even dramas, thousands more. In comparison, osaga at the best price and without overpayments, time will tell the program, we continue to work live, live, not so much even remembering the events of october 34 , 1993, but trying to understand that these events are the investigations and consequences. These events mean for us today and the most important thing for us to understand us tomorrow , where we should go, that is, we more or less discussed it, and so to speak, where we are going with the wave, where we are at that moment in history the wave either carried away or pushed, but its as if 30 years have passed, you were all here when you were talking about how motley the defenders of the white house were before. And that means the opponents of the defenders of the white house, indeed, each of you one way or another he said that we were all very mixed up then, in an amazing way , and this once again emphasizes to me that for me, that this conversation is relevant, we are in general about the same, mixed up now, i just looked at the advertisement, interesting, well thats what i said, i posted my biennial text ago in the telegram channel about this is how it started, it means in the comments in the chat hacked, red, white, these are for yeltsin, these are against yeltsin and so on, its still all there somewhere, although in reality its about Something Else, whatever one person wrote, i was in uzbekistan then, and now its like this is my story now, because i live in russia and now i dont understand, so im for power, but it seems like i wouldnt have been for yeltsin then, sort of i cant be for the troublemaker. Khazbul and rutsskova, but it seems like it turns out what kind of people they are, that is, again everything is like this mixed up, here is the most important question, this is our confusion, then and today, these are our different flags, i, uh, being at the front, this is a regular story, that in one unit you have people in one dugout there, in one thing i dont know is the calculation there. The imperial flag, next to it the soviet flag, this one was saved by someone not made by hands, this one was saved by stalin, and so on and so forth , and they are all for something that, in theory, is, well , sort of irreconcilable, but they are reconciled, because together, more besides, and sociology for everything my complex and ambiguous attitude towards sociology, but shows that this confusion is ours, it still largely persists, the question is, is this our strength or, well, lets listen to valery fedorov, from fziom, hes just talking about this speaks in sufficient detail, is very interesting and seems recognizable to me, please, there are. Several options for the image of the future, each of them is specific to a particular group. The first image is that we will live like in the idealized west, where it is comfortable, prosperous, beautiful, peaceful calmly. For the country as a whole, thus moscow has become de facto; this image can be called a comfortable russia. The second image is a technogadget of the future, high technology, flights to mars, cybergi, unmanned vehicles and couriers. This image is closer, on the one hand, to engineering and technical specialists. With another globalized part of youth. The third image is of great russia, a country that can say no. The world fears her and respects her for her strength and firmness. The country that won the cbo does not stop there; it plays an Important Role in the world. This is the image of the future for warring russia. Finally, there is the image of a fair russia, a country where inequality has been overcome, where justice has turned from a slogan into a norm, where equal opportunities are provided. Not only officials and billionaires, but also ordinary people. This image is closer to older people, including those approaching retirement, with moderate leftwing sympathies and nostalgia for the ussr. Will it be possible to put together a single image from these images, theoretically there is such a possibility, i would call this image the ussr 2. 0, or soviets of noncommunists, that is, without communist ideology. That is, in principle, thats all that is said here, except perhaps for gadgets. In the year ninetythree, no one knew anything about gadgets, everyone had these gadgets at home, which means that not everyone had them, but in general it very much resembles that multilayer pie that we discussed when talking about the year ninetythree, now the question arises the fact that then it gave such an outbreak is not without options, that is , we can somehow package all this for the benefit of our stronger joint society and somehow all this. Fedorov , we have been very friendly with him for a long time, we communicate, and he once explained to me that when these surveys are given, that 20 for this, 30 for this, another 10 for something. Then the third thing, then as a rule we are not talking about the fact that there are 20 of people who are only for this, i also wanted to say that people who have gadgets. He says that in each of us there is 20 of this, 30 of that, and 10 more of that, that is, in each of us there live three or four subpersonalities that argue with each other in our heads, yes, in every patriot lives internal liberal, some have 1 , some have 5, some have 15. Definitely not a patriot, which is completely unnecessary, yes, its not clear how these images he named are generally related to each other contradict, why do they contradict each other, if you unwind, that is, then it turns out that russia, for example, cannot be great if it wants to be. Can we make it comfortable without them . This question has not yet even begun to be posed in a practical sense, for example the question of justice, this is this in particular the question is also about the economy, that is, if we redistribute, yes, then how does the market, private property, competition and Everything Else work, if these are all disputes that are still going on in kitchens, by the way moscow is from that period , this is also moscow, where near every Historical Building there was such a crowd, where men fiercely argued with each other exactly on these topics. Yes, now the same thing is happening, its just that these fleas are called chats, in the comments, yes, but, but these disputes are not over, they have been going on for all these 30 years, so thats where i started, looking at the comments. In the hands of weapons, they would also go to sort things out with each other, but this is not so, that is, we will probably stand for 30 years, although many write that the most important thing is that he doesnt do it, no, he doesnt repeat this, so then the question arises, for example, valery fodeev offers an option, fedorov, yeah. And ussr 2. 0 or councils without communists . But as an option for packaging all this into one. I really immediately have a question what about without communists, if there are people who are for communists, that is, right away, too, someone immediately finds themselves as if overboard, this is the ussr, its not a matter of wording, but i m against the soviets, i didnt feel any nostalgia for the ussr, i always said that im russian, that my country this is russia and, to be honest, i have never been proud of the flag, my flag is the russian tricolor, which is now our official one, thank god , it was given to me in the 1990s, well, in this case, it doesnt matter what you call it , the point is that all these four conditions can be combined absolutely, and the point is, and not to combine like this, of course, but to combine so that it goes somewhere and the most important thing in the previous part, artyom, you said that we are very different now. It seems to me that we have some kind of genetic code embedded in the russian imperial nation, that we know how to use it, an alternative, how could it be different, this is ukraine, look, thats when they described what happened here 30 years ago , because a lot reminded me of the maidan, the beginning of the maidan, something romantic. Alexey said why did he go there at the age of 15, everything that happened gave rise to the feeling that it was some kind of shame, then some young kiev students came out, because well, its a shame yanukovych steals, his whole gang, sasha stomato came to replace yanukovych crystal honest people who wont take a penny, and what they began to do, they began to suppress any dissent in everything and unify the country, society, this is the most important mistake, well then lets go back. In ninetythree and you dont like advice, but people who in ninetythree came to the place of the soviets, well, you remember ninetyfour, ninetyfive, ninety, and so on , artyom, well, the vanquished were not suppressed then, they were very quickly released from prison, yeltsin, but i want to say, he forgave everyone, im not talking about this, im not talking about personal revenge and not about punishment, im talking about what happened to how this was jointly acquired property, as a question of justice, and so on and so forth, and and this question is about justice, thats what fedorov is talking about writes, he was back then in ninetythree, so i showed you these, all these people who are for the soviet union, against democracy there and so on , on each of these posters the words justice could be written, they understood their justice in this way, but only now they expressed it in this way and this question of justice in a twisted form, it the main question is still present, why am i talking about this line, that in this way we will not take away the justice of one side from the other, so as not to bring joy to those who are on cnn live, this means, its like watching, but to somehow she still needs to move to combine all this, yes , i would return again to these three flags that fly over the gulf of finland, such grandiose banners of ours, they really symbolize three periods, three ideologies, three directions, and here even it is appropriate to recall certain. Postulates of german philosophy, because what is this, this is the transition of quantity into quality, this is the law of negation, negation, and of course, unity and struggle are opposites, that is , this makes us very strong, friends, an interesting, interesting look, then there is, then there is, roughly speaking, we can turn this into strength, of course, this is our strength , this is already broken, once it tore us apart, once upon a time we were mu and now in this New Historical period, since we have jumped over it, we we jumped over all three of these periods, these are all three periods, in fact its already the past, we entered, rolled into an unknown , mysterious tomorrow, which in fact will build itself, its not worth it, it means measuring some kind of public opinions, some kind of test tubes in laboratories, to draw projects for this russia of tomorrow, it will. Build itself, since we have already passed this narrow corridor of history and we have now emerged into open space, into our huge lawn, uhhuh, well, actually, here it is to your words. For you, here is the example with which i started, about the fact that many guys at the front , especially many volunteers, and by the way, sometimes these flags are also adjacent, although it would seem from the point of view, well, so to speak , they are always already neighbors, they will always be in place, yes, that is, that is, really, at such a level, well, lets say, ideological at on a completely practical level, why i started with this by talking about the fact that we have now entered a certain. Very complex, noticeably difficult turning point for everyone in our history, these are these, yes, these are the contradictions that may be, well, in a relatively quiet time they separate us, maybe they bring us to the Common Ground that is the same for all of us, here it is very important that one of the parties does not go too far and does something that is absolutely for someone else unacceptable, i. Of course, my flag is a tricolor whitebluered, but i tolerate i cant see lenin, but i understand that theres probably no need to remove lenin from the mausoleum now, those who said they were stealing dont need to mention this, because those who are under the red flag are pushing stalin, which means they are restoring monuments to him and so on, they dont understand that for people like me, this is absolutely incompatible with my vision of the future of the country, if stalin is at every step, and why, and why again, this is at every step, listen, if, if a person is an idea, and so to speak, well, or there is an ideologeme that for him the soviet union and for him stalin are certain examples of how it should be, and at the same time he goes to fight in the army with a flag, which is the russian tricolor, and he fights an enemy who threatens ours, even if he is this stalin he keeps himself at home, but does not place his monuments in ours. Cities, because i have a lot of relatives who were killed by him, it is necessary in this case, as i respect them in the case now, it seems to me that i must be respected, but if such maximalism, praise to my conciliatory im drowning, you, in a certain sense of the word, are out of the blue, this is the question about our mentality, out of the blue i began to expand, here i am, as if with everyone. In one place, but only here, here is stalin , i dont want it, without stalin, i dont need it, respect it, as if its mine , you know, again, we need to talk about what unites us, but you immediately say, no, theres a lot that unites us, you know, here mind you, Andrei Aleksandrovich, well , i can roughly imagine what kind of ideologies he could push here too, i dont know, there about the tsar, i dont know, theres nicholas ii, theres about the tsarist regime, about Something Else, but he talks about what unites us, and you talk about what divides us. Drew attention, we have gathered here for this purpose, to listen to each other, where are the red lines for everyone , the question is, do we need red lines in the form of stalin, who died how many years ago, you know, and if it is for people today who did not live a day under stalin, so to speak, he is, well, what is called exalted as the generalissimo of victory, and so on and so forth Something Like that, i dont understand, maxim, im not a stalinist, and my grandfather was also in prison, i dont understand how and how this can hinder you, it would greatly hinder me, but i think that russian history, the russian people themselves will decide what he needs symbols of the past, please, i will support Andrei Aleksandrovichs philosophical line, yes, because as plato said, this is platos idea that consciousness is now becoming a fundamental factor of reality for us, this is the consciousness, our consciousness, what country we live in, what we are fighting for, what we want to see is exactly what creates our reality will. Continue to create it, but i am against the image of the future, as a concept , because i am a person with a scientific and natural education, yes, and i understand that the image of the future is some point, somewhere, where will they lead everyone, and its not a fact that this is the right point in this trajectory, but then how . We need endless horizons for development, because progress, both human and cultural, and moral and technical, is measured immeasurably, to where we can. Move endlessly, when we can constantly develop, if we were talking about an ideological concept, then lets say we remember what the concept of holy russia is, yes, because the civilizational principle and concept, when the concept of holiness and righteousness, when you measure your actions with these concepts and educate people in these concepts, allows you not only to go into technotronics, well. Into robot technology, but also to improve morally, yes, this is what soviet Science Fiction writers once called for, in the fifties, sixties, this is where we should develop, yes, but the soviet Science Fiction writers called into the beautiful, which means that this is so far away, but at the same time there was a soviet textbook in which certain milestones were placed that formed us as a single one, yes, and now it begins, stalin alone interferes with someone else there, i have a friend who is a fellow soldier, he lives, for example, in astrakhan, where he is always trying to erect a monument to ivan the terrible, which seems to me, well, in general, it is quite appropriate in astrakhan, but there are also people in astrakhan who they say, no, ivan the terrible cant stand here must. Therefore, our milestones are common, they are still very important. And they seem to be needed from something, well, from something they need to, i dont know, start from, perhaps, from a stove, or something, from some kind, that is, you dont have to call it an image of the future, but something, what about us, here we come to this again, something about us, you know, its good that we put up three flags, but heres something that would symbolize these three flags, but at the level of greater elaboration there, inside there country, education, in the end, for me these three flags are very understandable, understandable triangle, forms, strong state, imperial, freedom, threecolor justice red, these are three vertices, which , so to speak, it is clear that there are lines of tension between them, and in fact, we have literally demonstrated them right here in this space, as soon as you touch it, thats us. Didnt drink, just imagine, yes, so that it began, yes, if you drank, it was calmer, after 200, this is this, this endless this russian conversation, who pay attention, we are not calling for anything, and dont mind , its not me proposed, yes, and nevertheless, nevertheless, this formula, it is already clearly visible, yeah, that is, yes, we cannot without a strong state with an independent, sovereign, strong on the world stage with a voice, its own, its own a lot about this, about this, yes, we dont want people to decide for us how we should live , to have their views imposed on us by the people who teach us life, and even the most ultra ultra prosoviet people, if you dig into them a little like this, theyre with it they will agree, they actually have a lot in their, a lot in their red protest. Against todays stream, but we dont want to be like the mainstream, we want to be red for evil, and yes, of course, justice, yes, of course, a red flag, which symbolizes the fact that everyone has their own dignity, everyone has their own rights, and there is a system that makes sure that there are no extra people, no people who dont fit in, no one, no one is changing anyone through the knee, yes, here, here, in this, in this somehow a balance must be built, a balance, i i agree, by the way, without distortions, without emphasis on any one of the vertices, but it works, uhhuh, well, actually, concluding this conversation, this is exactly what you all have come to one way or another, is that these three flags, this is our speech, by the way, an indicator that, with all the different perceptions and relationships, you can focus on looking for what is common and brings you together, then there will be a path to the future, or you can build on each other and focus on what divides you, then it will be, or rather should not be repeated what almost happened throughout country, happened these days, 2 days in moscow, advertising, girls, attention, konorova is our new fashion model, i told her not to get involved with this bohemian, a beautiful woman in a car is less suspicious, and what kind of spy games are you playing, and its no good, i killed you, bend down so that they they didnt remember you, you also spoiled me, you died my wife , a creature, sergei without arms. 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And because this topic is important, by the way, one of the indicators of this is that Vladimir Putins press secretary was asked whether there would be some kind of address or statement from the president on this matter, Dmitry Peskov replied that it was not planned, but thats all conclusions on the situation were drawn, it seems to me that this is very important, and we said here that where we began to move, for some time now, can be counted from the seventh year and so on, this is what i think it seems that, based on the conclusions drawn, including from the events of 1993, the main thing is that we all continue to move in this direction together and, if possible, talk to each other, because we still have more in common than what divides us, but take at least the doll program of tooties heir, well, its common property, look, admire. Zelenskys tour of the United States ended in a surprise for him; he went there, as usual, begging for money for weapons, and ended up meeting his new, direct boss penny pritzker, very nice, very nice. Nice to meet you, how