and have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. in fact, they re getting together here on washington on sunday. but they don t want you to call it an anti vax march. instead, they call it defeat the mandate squad. they outline how anti-vaxxers win people over. by focusing on vaccine mandates as an entry point. joining me now are the two reporters we just mentioned, brandi who has covered the anti-vaccine movement, and ben collins, who covers, to use his term, the they are frankly the very best at covering these issues, even though i ve seen reporters as thank you both for being here. brandon i m gonna start with you, how did the vaccine become part of these groups? well, in order they ve been around as long as