those meetings. and they haven t had much of a role leading up to that. for a lot of people here, this whole conflict of what is about to become a conflict really seems just like almost an invention of the west and russia. and ukrainians are tired of it, they no longer like keying a cudgel that moscow uses when this is the topic of their diplomatic relations. this country, these people. they feel they have no purchase on the negotiations that will very much determine the fate of their nation. and that s been very frustrating because this isn t the first time, even the impeachment with donald trump just very recently, that was something that had everything to do with ukraine, at the same time almost nothing to do with ukraine. that s why, a lot of people, ever since world war ii, they re very frustrated with the fact that they do not have any purchase on their destiny. they re simply seen by the west and by moscow as mere observers,