Couple of decades where we can protect ukraine but russia is one thing integrated into europe. but he s in his late 60s, david miliband. he s not going anywhere any time soon or giving up any time soon. yeah, i think there s one overriding question which is whether or not dispensation after 2014 with crimea under western control, whether that holds and whether russia succeeds in claiming more territory in the eastern south or is pushed back. in thinking about that, there s a couple of important things. one, one of the lessons of the last 30 years has been an underestimate of the ukrainians themselves. they are center stage in this and the fist choice is for them, not the west. if they want to fight for their country, that s their choice.
yeah, i think there s one overriding question which is whether or not dispensation after 2014 with crimea under western control, whether that holds and whether russia succeeds in claiming more territory in the eastern south or is pushed back. in thinking about that, there s a couple of important things. one, one of the lessons of the last 30 years has been an underestimate of the ukrainians themselves. they are center stage in this and the fist choice is for them, not the west. if they want to fight for their country, that s their choice. secondly, i do think we have to understand that at stake here is at one hand the world of anarchy because that is what is unleashed in mariupol and elsewhere, versus some kind of rules, some kind of order and that s why the framing i think the west should be adopting is not democracy versus autocracy but rules versus anarchy. that s a fundamental part of this. thirdly, i think ann marie is