With its unprecedented power, is there anything anyone can do about it . I wish i could tell you that were going to be able to stop all interference. But that just wouldnt be realistic. All in starts right now. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. Tonight, the infamous steel dossier is at the very center of the news on the russia investigation. Nbc news reports that investigators on special counsel Robert Muellers team have interviewed christopher steele. Thats of course the former British Intelligence officer who compiled that absolutely explosive document. The dossier deals an alleged effort by the russian government over a period of years, stretching back to 2013 or so, to cultivate and coopt donald trump and his inner circle, as well as an extensive conspiracy between the Trump Campaign and Russian Forces to Work Together to interfere in the 2016 president ial election on trumps behalf. The president denies those
and now it appears mueller wants to ask some followup questions. Thats what i think this interview would have been about. Ken dlanian, thank you. I want to bring in former assistant Watergate Special prosecutor juwan banks, former federal prosecutor renato marriotty. What do you make of this news . Its interesting and big news. The dossier i think you and ken covered it very well, chris. The dossier contains a lot of explosive details. And had been denied had been the subject of very frequent denials by the administration. They said, oh, false dossier, fake, theres nothing real in there. But at ken was pointing out portions have been verified. Now that muellers looking at it, what it tells me is hes going back and trying to figure out what he can create usable evidence out of. So your viewers understand, you cant just toss this dossier in front of a jury. You actually have to bring in
we took every bit of information that we got, every clue, every tip, and took it seriously. Its interesting especially in light of the release of the mark felt movie and his being held out as a hero. But really, he was telling us what we already knew, because his information came from the same fbi that worked for us. So it wasnt dramatic, new information. The fbi knew everything that he had and we had it. The people who didnt have it were the public. And it was helpful to bring Public Opinion to support our efforts to uncover all the information. And it really helped in the end too bring about the replacement of the Special Prosecutor after the Saturday Night Massacre and to get the release of the tapes, because the public was supporting us because they saw the evidence publicly. Here you have a situation where the senate has to get to the bottom of what happened, not just in terms of the dossier,
but in terms of the clear and convincing evidence that we have that the russians hacked. Because they have to protect our electoral system. And thats a really important underlying thing that the congress has to do, whereas the criminal prosecution has to proceed through the mueller investigation. Renato, i want to talk about time scale here. This is now an investigation that was opened i think in summer of 2016, i believe june. Its gone through several phases. I think its intensified. Its been passed over to the special counsel. And the argument that you heard from Sarah Huckabee sanders, although it was of the Intelligence Committee but the same ilk, theyve been looking and talking to people, theres thousands of pages of transcript, and they havent found the smoking gun so this is a witch hunt. What do you say to that . First of all, we dont know what muellers found yet. So your viewers understand, when you conduct a grand jury investigation, as a legal matter, its secret. So mueller cant divulge to us everything that he knows. We dont know what he knows. And this is just in the frankly, in many ways, its still in a fairly early stage. As we just heard recently, mueller is interviewing people at the white house about obstruction and other issues. So each one of those interviews is going to generate more requests and more subpoenas and more interviews. I mean, this is going to go on and on at hes verifying this dossier. Hes going to be interviewing more people sxoo bringing them in. This is just the beginning. And i would not draw any conclusions other than what we already know about manafort and others being indicted. So then jill, this goes to you. Obviously theres been reporting suggesting that mueller has informed manafort directly, you are going to be indicted, which if he was unclear on that, breaking into his apartment to search a Search Warrant probably helped him to that possibility. I guess my question is to renatos point, did you feel when you were working the watergate investigation, was there some sense of extemple pressure that you guys at some point, in order to sustain Public Interest or sustain peoples thoughts that this was a fair proceeding, did have to
pru something tangible that you could come public with . Lets look at the smoking gun which you mentioned. And we were appointed in may of 73. We found out that there were Tape Errorinrecordings in july. Subpoenaed them, were stonewa stonewalled, but then we finally got some. They werent the shown gun, it was nine limited tapes and we only got six because one had an 18minute gap, two were missing. So we only got six of the nine. And then in march we returned indictments. It was only in preparation for trial which was set for September Of 74 that we subpoenaed 64 more tapes and got the smoking gun. When we got the smoking gun, and this is now more than a year after we started, that was an immediate response. The republicans acted as americans. The three Top Republicans in the congress, house and senate, went to nixon and said, there is no
more support for you, you will be convicted in the senate if you do not resign. And that was the end. But that was a year into it. We did not get the smoking gun right away. This takes time. You know, slow and steady wins the race. We have to put the puzzle together piece by piece. And it takes a little bit of time to develop all the evidence thats necessary. And i think mueller is showing every sign of getting it done. All right, jill and renato, thank you both. Joy reid, host of a. M. Joy joins me. What do you think is the significance of mueller sending folks to talk to steele . I think its very important. I think you and ken made a really important point that this is a research document. Its a document from which the mueller team can work to find facts. It is not the fact. The important thing that is people sort of characterize the dossier as sort of the conclusions that this guy was drawing. He was sweeping in all of this information and mueller has to put it together. Its important because theres a lot in that dossier that has borne out. I think it provides the most compelling set of facts that could be a narrative as to how collusion took place. If they can get to the bottom of that by talking to him, finding out where did he get some of his information, he may or may not be able to divulge it, i think it helps to build slowly this investigation. You know, the document itself, and part of the reason that i the way i think about it has shifted over time as facts fall into place. When you read it the first time, what it lays out seems really kind of crazy. Like, i mean, or at least so broad in scope. The idea is that this was a sustained effort over a number of years to cultivate donald trump, to bring him into the russian orbit, to have him be essentially turned into a kind of asset, and then to help his campaign. What it lays out in its scope is really, really enormous. Yeah. But it isnt if you think about the way that russia has worked. Lets remember that the current president of russia was a former kgb agent. Kgb spent years cultivating
assets. This is not something they do quickly. I think the idea that you have somebody like donald trump, who showed the affinity in the 80s, showed an interest in the 80s, had a need in the 90s, need and greed are usually the components of the way that the russians, even when they were the soviets, would develop assets. This is how its done. I think the idea is if youre going to interfere in a president ial election, this is really taking it to a level that is incredibly risky for russia. If youre going to do that, you better do it carefully. You better cultivate these contacts over a long period of time. Its not something they would rush into. So i think it actually makes sense that it was that comprehensive and that it depended on the greed and need of a lot of different people who wanted to make money somehow through russia, or who wanted to have the power of the presidency. Do we have by the way this clip of the president just speaking a little while ago . If we do, i want to play it for joy. This is the president. Hes having a dinner tonight with military officials and their families at the white
house. And its slightly off target but it just happened and i want to get your reaction, i dont know what to make of it. This is the president appearing to threaten something and no one can figure out what. Do you know what this represents . Maybe its the Calm Before The Storm. Whats your storm . The Calm Before The Storm. What storm . We have the worlds great military people here in this room, ill tell you that. Thank you all for coming. Thank you. What storm, mr. President . Youll find out. You know, donald trump what do you make that . Donald trump still seems to think hes in the apprentice, a is spence moment before you go to break, come back from commercial and announce whatever it is hes doing. He treats the presidency like a reality show. He did this with tom price,
hamg on, well have more information for you. Stay tuned. But at the time that theyre potentially ripping up the iran nuclear deal, which could send us on a path of hostility with iran. Iran is not iraq, its a republic, its not a puttogether republic where the people are fractured. It was an empire. It has an actual air force. Its four times the population. Hes contemplating any sort of act of hostilities with iran, thats terrifying. At the same time he is goading north korea. If he werent doing those two things that would just be donald trump doing his donald trump thing. Its kind of terrifying in the context of what theyre doing. I mean, presumably there are intelligence agents of other countries trying to parse this as well. Of course. I think he thinks its an asset if they cant figure him out, but theres reasons to think that the literature in deterrence and game theory that could be quite dangerous. Indeed. Next, more exclusive new reporting on the rift between Rex Tillerson and the man he reportedly called a moron. New details of a furious president fuming at the white house in just two minutes. Later, the facebook effect. A special conversation on the crossroads of democracy and the unprecedented power the Social Media Giant holds. And then you totaled him. You two had been through everything together. Two boyfriends, three jobs. Youre like nothing can replace brad. Then Liberty Mutual calls. And you break into your happy dance. If you sign up for better car replacement™, well pay for a car thats a model year newer with 15,000 fewer miles than your old one. Liberty stands with you™. Liberty mutual insurance. President undermined tillerson or any other cabinet secretary. Whats your response to those who say the president has undercut the Secretary Of State . Sarah, just quickly i think the premise of that question is rud dic husband, the president cant undercut his own cabinet, the president is the leader of the cabinet. He sets the tone, he sets the agenda, i think that question make not sense because of that. Nbcs carol lee who worked on that story and subsequent reporting joins me now. What do we know from your reporting about the reaction to the story . We know that the president was furious. And he vented in the white house for about two hours. He had left quite early to go to las vegas. And once he got aboard air force one, that eswhen kelly kind of started to get into action. About two and a half hours later we saw secretary tillersons press conference. The interesting thing that happened after that is that
kelly then summoned tillerson and defense secretary mattis to the white house for this meeting. And the reason why that is significant is because, as you recall, it was kelly and mattis who intervened in july when tillerson was threatening to resign and convinced him to stay. So the three of them had this huddle at the white house where they talked about a path forward. Meanwhile, you have Vice President pence who was really angered by this, particularly because tillersons spokesman said on the record to us for the story, told us the story about a meeting that tillerson had had with pence and suggested that the Vice President somehow was questioning the job that the u. N. Ambassador nikki haley was doing. Pences office said that was flatly, patently false. So he was very upset and he and tillerson had a conversation and
he said, you need to fix this. Youre saying that was the prompt for tillerson to come out before the cameras in that hastily assembled press conference. Right. Youre telling me Behind The Scenes of your interpretation and your colleagues and our colleagues reporting was not, this is not fake news, but rather, i am furious that the man called me a moron . It was essentially yeah. Why was he the idea that tillerson had said something disparaging behind the president s back, the whole notion of this being out there in the headlines, the president was just you know. It was not he was not at all happy with anything that was happening yesterday morning. All right. Carol lee, thanks for joining me. Thank you. Msnbc stephanie rule, one of our report hoarse broke the news yesterday, its good to have you here. They are publicly, the president , tweeting about fake news, fake news, fake news, deny fake news. Meanwhile theyre not interpreting it as fake news
Behind The Scenes. Think about this. Rex tillerson comes out there, gives that press conference to an audience of one, apologizing to the president , saying youre the smartest, prettiest, greatest, bestest boss there ever was in the whole universe, but by the way, im not going to comment on whether or not i call y you a moron, from the parts where i cam from, thats too petty to say that. You know what its not too petty. Because people in that room said it. What do you think it says about that palace intrigue, what goes on within the white house . This is a meeting that took place in july. This has been floating around. So those colleagues that hes working with every day, remember, President Trump says, the stories you hear about the chaos are nonsense, its a welloiled machine. What kind of welloiled machine leaks like this . The other part of this that strikes me is this is also this account has been confirmed by other outlets now. This is something that was clearly people knew that this had happened and had been floating around. It was not a crypto secret. Thats why its stunning for the president to say, lets go after this fake news, fake news. This happened. Like no way other than to say, it happened. Multiple people have confirmed it. Think about how unhappy Rex Tillerson is. A year ago the guy ran exxonmobil. He was the ceo. He flew around the world private, had his own security detail, Foreign Policy team, didnt even eat in the cafeteria, and now hes got a staff that doesnt even interface with other parts of the administration, he travels alone. People in the Administration Talk about Rex Tillerson and his Chief Of Staff like they are Persona Non Grata and thats how Something Like this gets out. Not only Persona Non Grata at foggy bottom, at the white house too, a man without a country. He also the other part of this is it seems from the reporting ive seen, the president s furious but also feels paralyzed because heres this quick look at the people who have gone from the administration. This is last friday we made this. Scaramucci, bannon, comey,
flynn, priebus, spicer, shiller, on and on and on. It will feed the chaos narrative if he does Fire Tillerson so hes stuck with him. Remember President Trump, i hire the best people. A laundry list of people have left. And at the same time a laundry list continues of those who keep getting caught flying private, flying on military planes. We know how much that infuriated the president when tom price did it. Whos he going to be mad at now . Youre well sourced in all this. I wondered if i can pick your brain on the comments the president just made about this being the Calm Before The Storm. Have you seen this . I have. What the heck does that mean . President trump loves to be unpredictable. Its unclear what the Calm Before The Storm the thing is, it could mean anything. But if you are a member of or nothing. Or nothing. But ill tell you, if you are one of his senior Staff Members and you hear him go out there and say, the Calm Before The Storm, youre not feeling like you know what hes about to say. Youre feeling like, what could it be . Realize, it could be iran. It could be north korea. It could be fake news. It could be firing someone. Could be firing Rex Tillerson for calling me a moron, which i said was fake news. It could be hes going to do something very progressive on gun control. Right. Who knows. Stephanie, thank you. Nra comes out in support of new regulations. Why it is not exactly the concession some are making it out to be, ahead. Ng. But as you get older, it naturally begins to change, causing a lack of sharpness, or even trouble with recall. Thankfully, the breakthrough in prevagen helps your brain and actually improves memory. The secret is an ingredient originally discovered. In jellyfish. In clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve shortterm memory. Prevagen. The name to remember. Our guests can earn a free night when they book at choicehotels. Com and stay with us just two times . Fall time. Badda book. Badda boom. Pumpkin spice cookie . Im good. Book now at choicehotels. Com there are a lot of people in america who learned the las vegas mass theater Stephen Paddock killed 58 people in 10 minutes using a device known as a bump stock and thought to themselves i really need to get one of those. Bump stocks are legal, even
though as this video illustrates they effectively transform a Semiautomatic Rifle into a fully automatic weapon. Bump stock sales are spiking after paddocks massacre with many retailers sold out. It comes amid a push from some lawmakers to ban bump stocks. The devices are being defended by the group gun owners of america, which bills its as the only nocompromise gun lobby in washington. Youd expect the National Rifle association to take the same position, having spent decades opposing almost every single gun safety law. After days of silence following las vegas nra announced it was backing new regulations on bump stocks. Sounds promising. Only theres a catch and its a bill one. And i couldnt wait to get my pie chart. The most shocking result was that im 26 Native American. I had no idea. Just to know this is what im made of, this is where my ancestors came from. And i absolutely want to know
more about my Native American heritage. Its opened up a whole new world for me. Discover the story only your dna can tell. Order your kit now at ancestrydna. Com. If you have moderate to Severe Ulcerative Colitis or crohns, and your symptoms have left you with the same view, it may be time for a different perspective. If other treatments havent worked well enough, ask your doctor about entyvio, the only biologic developed and approved just for uc and crohns. Entyvio works by focusing right in the gitract to help control damaging inflammation and is clinically proven to begin helping many patients achieve both Symptom Relief as well as remission. Infusion and serious allergic reactions can happen during or after treatment. Entyvio may increase risk of infection, which can be serious. While not reported with entyvio, pml, a rare, serious Brain Infection caused by a virus may be possible. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, experience frequent infections, or have flulike symptoms, or sores. Liver problems can occur with entyvio. If your uc or crohns medication isnt working for you, ask your gastroenterologist about entyvio. Entyvio. Relief and remission within reach. Over the next short period of time. Well be looking into that over the next short period of time. Short period of time. Tends to mean never. But maybe not this time. In something of a surprise, the normally vehemently antiregulation National Rifle association seems to suggest today it was fine with banning bump stocks, saying in a statement, nra believes the devices design to allow Semiautomatic Rifles to function like fully automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations. But fine print what the nra is advocating, not legislation, its calling on the atf to immediately review whether these devices comply with federal law. As Politico Points out the move is designed to head off a messy Gun Control Debate in congress, a debate over universal Background Checks et cetera. Senator dianne feinstein, who introduced a bill to ban bump stocks and similar devices, suggested the nras stance is
designed to maintain the status quo. The atf made clear that it did not have the authority to regulate bump stocks under the gun control act or National Firearms act. Legislation can and will save lives and congress should act immediately. Here to break this down, democratic representative Keith Ellison of minnesota. Congressman, what do you think is happening here . Well, i think, you know, talk about the least you can do. Bump stocks, of course we should ban them, they shoulder in have been allowed. What about all of the other lives we could save if we took more action . I mean, there should be universal Background Checks. You should not be able to have a highcapacity magazine. We ought to be able to step and up ban all these weapons of war that people use on our streets to protect human life. But now that weve seen 59 people killed, murdered, over 500 people injured, you wonder what its really going to take to actually take real action. Id say that when te killed 20 kids at sandy hook or killed 59 people partying in miami, i mean, now we see this tragedy. Bottom line is there is the bump stock is just a minimal starting point. I really do believe that we need to put the lives of people first. And put somebodys right to possess these weapons of war way behind. Well, okay, so then i want to ask about the sort of mismatch there is between the problems and the solutions. So part of the issue it seems to me is people who advocate for greater gun safety legislation say, weve got 30,000 americans dying every year, twothirds suicides, 10,000 Gun Homicides. Then when you look at the things that are being advocated like banning bump stocks or universal Background Checks or highcapacity magazines, the idea that thats going to stop or reduce the amount of Gun Homicides in chicago and baltimore, its hard to make that case. Yet thats whats politically possible. How do you bridge that gap . Well, look, i think that a lot of the guns in chicago come from other states. Wisconsin, indiana. There needs to be stronger enforcement there. But i think in this case, every time you say one life, you are saving somebodys whole world, chris. So were going to solve this problem. With a number of different measures. But youve asked about the politics. Thats the hardest part, right . Because even though about 90 of americans say there ought to be Background Checks for handguns, we still cannot get them. And this is because the nra and others are funded by gun manufacturers, give very, very generous dough thagss. Mostly to one party. The republicans. Overwhelmingly. Do you think its money . Ive gone back and forth on this not only, not only. It seems to me you could wipe out the money that Mitch Mcconnells gotten from the nra and he would be acting no
differently about what legislation hes going to bring up in that senate. Im not sure thats true either. I think that it is in part the money. I think that it is aggressive lobbying by some people. I think some of these folks get into office based on their devotion to guns. Look at roy moore right now, waving pistols around in a press conference. These folks, theres a Selection Element to this thing as well. So i think youre right. There is a complicated thing. But look, this has absolutely nothing to do with hunting rifles, shotguns, people going hunting, being a sportsman. Thats irrelevant. Most sports people agree there should be Background Checks on handguns and these other sort of measures that really cost so many lives all over this country. We really got to look at the money too. Its not just the money in terms of donations. Its the money in terms of the money spent lobbying. Its the money spent on independent expenditures that try to shape Public Opinion. It is a range of advocacy that
manufacturers owned by wealthy people keep on fighting for to stop us from passing sane, sensible gun legislation. Weve had more Mass Shootings than we have had days in the last year and a half. Its outrageous. If we can do bump stocks were going to do them, but we need to do much more than that. Representative Keith Ellison, thank you for being with me tonight. Thank you. Democracy in the age of facebook. As we learn more about what happened in 2016, what responsibility do social Media Companies have to prevent intrusion into elections . The experts are here to talk about that coming up. A rare breaking news thing 1, thing 2 after this. Were on a mission to show drip coffee drinkers, its time to wake up to keurig. Wakey wakey rise and shine oh my gosh how are you . Well watch this. I pop that in there. Press brew. Thats it. Look how much coffees in here . Fresh coffee. So rich. I love it. Thats why you should be a keurig man fullbodied. Are you sure youre describing the coffee and not me . Do you wear this every day . Everyday. Id never take it off. Are you ready to say goodbye to it . Go go ta da a terrarium. Thats it. We brewed the love, right guys . all yes. We brewed the love, right guys . Whuuuuuat . Rtgage offer from the bank today. You never just get one offer. Go to lendingtree. Com and shop multiple loan offers for free free . Yeah. Could save thousands. You should probably buy me dinner. No. Go to lendingtree. Com for a new home loan or refinance. Receive up to five free offers and choose the loan thats right for you. Our average customer could lower their monthly bills by over Three Hundred dollars. Go to lendingtree. Com right now. Council for a perfect, perfect Voting Record opposing abortion rights. So this past january, it wasnt unusual to see a post like this on Murphys Facebook page. Weve had great victories to protect the sanctity of life in the first weeks of this new year, defendlife. But Congressman Murphy received a text message a day after that post from a woman he has since acknowledged having an affair with. According to said text message, errors of which were obtained by the pittsburgh postgazette, she texted you have zeroish on posting your prolife stance when you had no issue asking me to abort our unborn child just last week when we thought that was one of the options. A reply from murphy responded, i get what you say about my March For Life messages. Ive never written them. Staff does and i read them and winced. I told staff, dont write any more, i will. Murphy has not responded to the post gazettes report but one
hour after that report alleging he urged his mistress to get an abortion earlier this year, the house held a vote on a bill to restrict abortion rights. And can you guess what tim murphy did . Thats thing 2 in 60 seconds. Shut down cold symptoms fast with maximum strength Alka Seltzer Plus liquid gels. Its ok to crave. And with panera catering, theres more to go around. Panera. Food as it should be. Whoamike and jen doyle . Than i thought. Yeah. Time for medicare, huh. I have no idea how were going to get through this. Follow me. Choosing a plan can be supercomplicated. But it doesnt have to be. Unitedhealthcare can guide you through the confusion, with helpful people, tools and plans. Including the only plans with the aarp name. Well that wasnt so bad at all. Thats how we like it. Aarp medicare plans, from unitedhealthcare. Can we at least analyze can we push the offer online . Legacy technology can handcuff any company. But yes is here. The new app Will Go Live Monday . Yeah. With hewlettpackard enterprise, were transforming the way we work. With the right mix of hybrid it, everything computes. Facebook, its not only the largest Media Company anywhere on the globe, it is also with possibly the exception of the worlds major faiths the Single Institution with the greatest Audience Size in the history of human civilization. What other entity has assembled 2 billion people . Worldwide, more than 2 billion active users. 1. 3 billion daily active users. 300 million photo uploads a day. 510,000 comments posted every 60 seconds. Close to 5 billion pieces of content shared daily. All of which generates a lot of money, 9 billion in ad revenue in the Second Quarter of this year alone. As massive as facebook is, it isnt just a social media platform. As one of our next guests max reid suggests comparisons include Government Metaphors like a state, eu, catholic church, star treks federation of planets, and business metaphors, a railroad company, a mall, physical metaphors like a
town square, interstate highway, electrical grid. Facebook right now seems to the kind of ubiquity of an electrical grid. What it delivers isnt a neutral commodity, its content can be as innocuous as a Flyer Stapled to a telephone pole, or as malevolent as fake russian accounts buying political ads. Facebook has the power to flip a switch on an algorithm they own proprietarily and do what, exactly . What could they do . I mean, if facebook ceo and cofounder Mark Zuckerberg were to run for president could facebooks algorithm assure only favorable coverage of candidate zuckerberg, unfavorable coverage of everybody else running for president . Even if that power is not ever used unethically by facebook, the scope of facebook is so massive it may have grown wildly beyond their control. The perfect host for a virus. Weve been working to ensure the integrity of the german
elections this weekend. But we are in a new world. It is a new challenge for Internet Communities to have to deal with nationstates attempting to survert elections. Arguably the most powerful non Head Of State in the world assuring us his team of engineers will get on the problem of making sure the worlds elections are secure. How exactly did we end up here . Im joined by Silicon Valley reporter cara swisher, executive ever the recode where her interview with Mark Zuckerberg was published earlier this year. Professor of Media Studies at university of virginia, authoring of Googlization Of America and forth coming the antisocial media. And max reid, Senior Ed Correspond of new york magazine, author of a phenomenal recent article titled does Mark Zuckerberg know what facebook is . I want to start with you, max. I love the piece. The basic argument of the piece is, this thing is so massive and its operating at such scale the person who created it cant know
what it is. Yeah. You put it well when you said its the largest gathering of people ever assembled on the planet. Its about the size of christians now. The group of people that we say christians
they didnt get to it. People are talking about the nation state idea, i guess. I suppose. They certainly have sway over a lot of things but, you know, its a little fever dream of old media to imagine they will suddenly sway the election or Something Like that. I guess here is my question to follow up. I play this idea. There was a time when facebook there was a video. Something fairly technical and all of a sudden on my news feed and it was in mine, too. I had the thought they could just have every person in america see whatever content they want to have. That would be the largest broadcaster in america. We can focus on what they have done. After the 2012 election, they published an academic paper emphasizing the fact that facebook could in fact influence the level of voter turn jout modestly and significantly in
certain yareas because the urge to vote is often socially shared and contagious. They ran the tests, different places around the united states. They did it in congestion and could influence voter turn jeou. Thats nothing close. Facebook could and in fact did affect how many people voted in a particular place. That might sway a local legislative race and state of florida because that was 114,000 votes in november. Right . So facebook has the ability to do more than its ever imagined. The thing is, you know, i like how carol put it about being weaponized. We have a system that unlike anything else weve seen in human history. Trying to find the metaphor it fits in. Facebook is facebook. There is is nothing like it. There will never be another thing like it. If you design from ground up a
system that would benefit leaders and benefit various forms of nationalists, you could not do better than to invent facebook. Thats not all it does. Its great for puppies and babies and it does remind me wait, but i want you to respond because youre rolling your eyes. Im not raising listen. I cant believe im and its just about the mark the rest of them. Everything is a benign platform. We make it if you sit with them its exhausting to talk to them about it. I think one of the things is they see it as a benign platform. It is not a benign platform. Any of the tools are not. All of these are not benign and they have to start taking responsibility for the tools and for the use of the tools and for the platform they built. That said, look, you know, remember when microsoft was going to kill us all . Right. It didnt. Remember when blank was going amazon apparently true. Nobody is going to kill us all but the idea they would take responsibility for this Frankenstein Monster they built is, i think, unrealistic. Yeah. There is no way for them to fix facebook. The problem with facebook is facebook. What they have suggested is cosmetic. What they suggested might work in a fairly controlled Test Environment like germany, which has deep republican roots and has rules against hate speech and what they did in germany is not a good test for what will happen and has happened in miramar and has in india. What is going to happen in the philippines. Thats where facebook is doing the biggest damage, not in the united states. So that back i want to talk about the idea about a at nbc news when we publish a thing it goes through standards. We just got a platform. You published. Like at a certain point you cant disengage from the stuff people are putting on your platform. Right. I mean, there has to be responsibility taken at some point. This is why its interesting to hear kara bring up microsoft. It will kill us and anti trust lawsuit. The power of the people and the form of government was brought to bear against a company that has grown too big. We dont have a clear sense of exactly how and why the lawsuit affected microsoft but meant it was flat footed when the internet hit it big and microsoft is now catching up to and other ones. In this in that way thinking about how we can keep it together. To be clear, microsoft broke laws. This is one of the issues is
microsoft you can say definitely covered that with the washington post. Very familiar what happened there. The fact of the matter is, it also missed out on invasion. It wasnt just the anti trust laws. Bill gates initially did not get the internet. He didnt get where computers were going. Steve bomber was insulting Mobile Phones for the longest time. Cycles of invasion facebook is not going to be remember when aol was so big and now it isnt . Here is my question. Doesnt mean it will happen the same way. Right. I want unseen let me separate two questions. There is a conception distinction. Is the size essentially reached Escape Velocity where it is no longer within the kind of invasion and schemes and going to be it can you know. They can control it. They can control it. They just havent done the work they need to control it and i know, listen, lets be clear here, they can build this and absolutely control it. If they are worried about the Silicon Valleys, another let me just i want to zero in. When they say they can control what im hearing. I want to make sure, you think they have the capacity if they change assumptions and thing their policies around what the platform is doing to make and the platform nonbenign. They control adds and Dont Control Residents but have control over spam and have the same google does. Its bad business for facebook to be in the business that google doesnt control what it does top to bottom. Google has some influence over what gets linked high. Facebook runs differently. Facebook has to abandon the selfservice ad platforms and abandon the process of ad tech which relies on deep surveillance of nearly two of
more than 2 billion people. I mean, they would have to restructure from the ground up, do everything differently to fix the problems that we see right now because it is so easily hijacked at the core. The problem with facebook is facebook. Its not something around the edges. I mean, weve tried google may i in letting them say well fix this and it keeps getting worse. At what point do we see Mark Zuckerberg, you dont get to control this. Youve done a bad job. One of the things they have done is slow rolled a lot. Thats what happening. He said this wasnt a big deal and maybe it was and wrote a long essay saying maybe there is is issues. I think the you know, you see statistics. What is interesting is statistics around how many people get news from facebook and people rely on things. Yeah, it has become central, central to American News consumption. To many, to many and then the question is what does that mean . Is it a utility
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