Wolfson, editor of the new republic frankly for, Politico White House reporter Carrie Rudolph brown making her debut, and our old hand Bloomberg White house correspondent hans nichol. There isnt much overlap between critics of george w. Bush and barack obama unless you are talking counterterrorism. Members of code pink, a group founded during the Bush Administration to protest the policies of waterboard and detention made their voices heard at yesterdays confirmation hearing for john brennan as cia director. They wont even Tell Congress what country we are killing children in. Please senator feinstein. If you could please expedite the removal. More important than the children of pakistan and yemen . Are they more important . Do your job the hearing serve as a public discussion of the most controversial counterterrorism policies that began under president george w. Bush and, in part, have continued and expanded under president obama. Brennans defense of the secrecy surrounding the administrations most questionable program, targeted assassinations using drone aircraft, was as opaque as the program itself. What we need to do is optimize transparency on these issues, but at the same time optimize secrecy and the protection of our National Security. I dont think that its one or the other. Its trying to optimize both of them. Some senators, including ron widen and angus king, pushed brennan to explain the legal at and justification for assassinating american citizens abroad. Every american has the right to know when their government believes its allowed to kill them. I understand you cant have cocommanders in chief, but having the executive being the prosecutor, the judge, the jury, and the executioner all in one is very contrary to traditions and the laws of this country. Brennan argued essentially that the ends justify the means. The decision that is are made are to take actions so that we prevent a future action so we protect american lives. That is an inherently executive branch function to determine and the commander in chief and the chief executive has the responsibility to protect the welfare, wellbeing of american citizens. While little seems to stand in the way of brennan becoming the next director of the cia, the hearings proved that americas top intelligence gatherers are still grappling with the rationale behind some of the countrys most controversial counterterrorism policies. Indeed, even regarding tactic that is have long since been discontinued, brennan was able to offer little clarity. My question is this. In your opinion, does waterboarding constitute torture . The attorney general has referred to waterboarding as torture. Many people have referred to it as torture. Do you have a personal opinion as to whether water board issing torture . I have a personal opinion that waterboarding is rep rehencible and something that should not be done. As to the ultimate question, whether or not we are moving away from american ideals relating to justice and civil liberties, the argument is far from settled. In the wall street journal today john yu, the Justice Department official that handled interrogation techniques during the Bush Administration writes, rather than capture terrorists, which produces the most valuable intelligence on al qaeda, mr. Obama has relied almost exclusively on drone attacks, but those deaths from the sky violate personal liberty far more than the waterboarding of three Al Qaeda Leaders ever did. Franklin, having watched the hearing or having seen it or seen excerpts of it just now, do you think the country thinks differently about the president and our intelligence gathering in this country . Isnt it a bit rich to see congress posturing like this when theyve done such a terrible job of oversight over the course of the last couple of years . Theyre the ones with the hands on the spiget theoretically. I dont have a problem with drones. I think drones represent an advance in the history of warfare that its also a bit rich to see john yu pilot criticisms. Its very clear that one of the promises that the Obama Administration made when they came in is they would take the Obama Policies and run them through a filter where they would legitimatize them, they would add protections that would enhance civil liberties. Theyve let these programs continue in nontransparent ways. Theyve done little to establish rationale regulations of them, very clear rules that would make us feel better that they were doing a better job of taking this tremendous power that they have and using it in the most responsible way. Well, i think one of the things that was really remarkable on the hearing yesterday, howard, was the gray the sort of opacity, and the fact that john brennan himself didnt know if he would call waterboarding torture. I think he did know. I didnt think he was going to say. They very much are still grappling. The playbook is still being written. So its sort of the ethics around it are still were still sort of thinking about it, and in the meantime drone strikes continue today. There was a drone strike in pakistan that killed seven and injured six others. Its as if the warfare has gotten far ahead of where we actually are in terms of our moral compass. There was an extraordinary New York Times front page story a couple of months back that basically detailed president obama going over a kill list where he would personally get the recommendations about when which targets just is which targets could be filled if we found them and him sort of strike aing few off and checking boxes next to the ones that he was comfortable with, and i was sort of expecting all my democratic friends, all of my friends on the left p to howl and say what an outrage this was. I could only imagine if this is a front page story about george bush and dick cheney going over a kill list late at night. Democrats have mostly given the president a pass on this, and republicans are mostly okay with the policy of killing terrorists with drones. As a result, as a country, we are allowing this to happen. People are basically okay with it. Whats interesting to me is there is very little bipartisanship in washington. Wonderful people can both attest. David brooks, ill quote him, basically making the arg utility for what obama is doing. He writes, it would be nice machiavelli writes if a political leader could practice the christian virtues like charity, mercy, and gentleness and still provide for his people. The virtuous leader is compelled to do hard things. The leader who does good things cannot always be good himself. Sometimes bad acts produce good outcomes. Carrie. I think its even yesterday at the hearing senators were not necessarily taking issue with the use of drones themselves. A lot of it was about the secrecy and the lack of transparency that the white house and this administration, past administrations, a lot of pentup frustration was on display yesterday. You have a post9 11 world where a lot of these programs happen in secret. Theres not even an acknowledgment of whether a memo exists or doesnt exist. A lot of that pentup frustration came out yesterday, and it wasnt so much. I mean, there are questions being raised about the program itself, but even if you ask folks like even franklin. Frank said the use of drones themselves is not necessarily the biggest point of contention. Its whether we as a public know exactly what the government is doing. Well, i would argue that, lets say there was greater transparency. I dont think the discussion and the debate goes away. Then you really get to the nugget of the argument. Is it okay to do bad things to get bad people . To howards point, i think the article came out after the election. After the election youll hear more criticism from democrats. If you dont hear the next two years, are you going to hear leading intu a primary. We have no idea who is going to get in the field, and i know were criticized for talking about the next election, but this will be an issue that wi we ferret out in iowa, new hampshire. Everyone will have to be on record saying if you are going to run for the democratic primary nomination, where do you stand on drone attacks . Remember, obama was to the right of Hillary Clinton during the xanl for going into pakistan and not he john mccain. On pakistan he was, right. This shouldnt be that big of a surprise that he is hawkish. This has been one of the central tensions, but sort of aspects of the obama presidency. I hear what youre saying. At the same time, you know, he came into office under the banner of no longer will there be black sites. We are closing gitmo. Extraordinary rendition. These kind of practices put in place by george w. Bush. That is going to be were going to close that chapter in american history. What this reveals is that that chapter is far from being closed. Its still being written. We are still arguing based on the movie zero dark thirty whether or not enhanced interrogation, torture, helped us get osama bin laden, and you hear conflicting reports about whether or not that was true. If you ask the average person, does interrogation enhance interrogation, does torture work . Youll get ten different anz. We are as a country very much grappling with these questions and trying to sort of move our way through the maze, and i think at the end of the day the chief executive determines that is he going to err on the side of the safety of the American People. If there is a judgment call to be made, he is going to say i will do what i need to do to protect this country, and i think george bush would have said that, and its pretty clear that barack obama is saying that. Franklin, im curious to know what you think of this. I think one of the reasons the president hasnt been pushed on this as much as he perhaps could have been is because the left has given i wont say a pass, but theyve leaned back. Theyve given him a pass. And i was trying to sort of better understand why that might be, and i think its twofold. One is if the left decides that these tactics are bad, it is then a reput yags of president obama and what he stands for. Then if the left decides these tactics are acceptable, then its coming to terms with the fact that we are doing perhaps terrible, bad things, unconstitutional things in the name of National Security. Drone attacks have also allowed us to wind down wars in afghanistan and iraq. Thief allowed us to prosecute al qaeda in a way that has doesnt require us putting boots on the ground. Lead footprint. Its the lead footprint. Its consistent with the overall obama gastalt that the left is comfortable with. It also buys the left political space on iraq and afghanistan. Obama i mean, granted, the country is exhausted by these wars, but there havent been any traditional attack that is you see levelled against a democrat for winding down a war and for its allowed him to project strength, and its brought him an incredible amount of political space. In terms of the sort of hoops, intellectual hoops that you have to jump through, if you are a member of the Progressive Left and president obama represented a sea change in terms of National Security policy, i will go back to what the economist wrote. As mr. Obamas second Term National team takes shape, the same dmrema will confront them as face mr. Bush all those years ago. Is the country made safer when enemies are killed or when theyre taken alive. Can either course be taken while preserving the privacy of law that makes america america. Thats the long gameshort game. Drone attacks increase radicalism on the ground. Theres the fact that drone attacks have such ease of use, and we are using them not just to get leadership. Were using them on an everyday basis. Part of it has to do with just that the distance between the actual warfare itself and the people who are pulling the trigger, and you want there to be some regulation. You want there to be some check on executive power there. Not just some guy in the basement of the white house with a kill list. With a kill list. Im not sure he is in the basement of the white house. I think he is probably in the roosevelt room, but what do i know . The point about brennan is there was a ton of power concentrated in one guy and will continue to be concentrated. If the Drone Program continues to be under the ages of the cia and not go to defense, then john brennan remains the man. We have to take a break, but when we come back, yesterday attorney general eric holder reiterated the white houses plans and hopes for comprehensive gun reform. The administrations plan, which i helped the Vice President and others to develop, in which the president announced last month includes a series of 23 executive actions. The Justice Department and other federal agencies are working to implement. Along with a range of legislative proposal that is weve called upon congress to pass and to pass without delay. Emphasis on delay. But are there incentives for lawmakers to wait . We will discuss the scenarios next on now. [ male announcer ] why do more emergency workers everywhere trust duracell. . . Duralock power preserve. Locks in power for up to 10 years in storage. Now. Guaranteed. Duracell with duralock. Trusted everywhere. Duracell with duralock. Do you guys ride . Well. No. Sometimes, yeah. Yes. Well, if you know anybody else who also rides, send them here we got great coverage. Its not like bikers love their bikes more than life itself. I doubt anyone will even notice. Leading the pack in motorcycle insurance. Now, thats progressive. Call or click today. Aarrggh a talking car. But ill tell you what impresses me. A talking train. This ge locomotive can tell you exactly where it is, what its carrying, while using less fuel. Delivering whatever the world needs, when it needs it. After all, whats the point of talking if you dont have something important to say . Dont know what id do id have nothing to prove [ male announcer ] zales is the diamond store. Save 30 percent off an amazing selection storewide, now through sunday. Bottom line is this, people, we have a lot of work to do. What weve learned over the last four years, at least what i have learned over the last four years, is that it wont be smooth, it wont be simple, there will be frustrations, there will be times where you guys are mad at me, and ill occasionally read about it, and as a byproduct of doing that good work and keeping that focus i would expect that nancy pelosi is going to be speaker again pretty soon. Speaking at the House Democratic policy retreat in virginia yesterday president obama looked into his crystal ball predicting the democrats will take back control of the house pretty soon. The reality of democrats seizing the Lower Chamber is a bit more sober. House democrats need to pick up 17 seats to retake the majority, and according to politico, just four republican encome bents represent districts that lean democratic while 15 democrats will be defending their seats in areas that tilt republican. Redistricting has not helped. The redrawn districts in 2010 left 109 republican seats more secure compared with just 67 democratic seats that were made safer. The 2012 election bore the fruit of those changes. The Cook Political Report found that while House Republicans won just 49 of the popular vote, they took 54 of house seats. The political reality, however, may matter more than the actual numbers. Jeremy peters writes in the New York TimesHouse Democrats are starting to appreciate a new political reality that few of them expected. They matter. With democrats now in control of 200 seats and republicans often sharply split on big issues like spending and taxes, democrats democratic votes have been decisive in getting major legislation through the house. Given this republican elders have to wonder. How strong is a majority if it is fractured . Carrie, it is a very interesting byproduct of the intraparty skism that is happening. Jerry peters talks about arguments missed the parties over the fiscal debate, but surely those same arguments will come to the fore as the house tackles immigration or gun control, presume it gets to the house. The democrats and the house now matter. Nancy pelosi has some amount. Shes not wielding the speakers gavel, but she is not someone to be marginalized. I covered the Health Care Law in 2009 and 2010, and she was sort of masterful in terms of eating her conference together on extraordinarily divisive issue, but the message is that, you know, Vice President biden, that obama delivered yesterday at the retreat was a political message. It was this is going to be tough, but you gee have to stick together. The politics on gun control, in particular, is not what it was in 1994, and you need to sort of rethink the way these politics are and really buck up and i think it was speaking directly to the fact that there are a lot of regional differences in the democratic caucus, but if they stick together, they may be able to do something. Lets be clear. The president is saying pretty soon. That wasnt a prediction. That was a punt. Pretty soon in political years doesnt mean anything. That means actually that he doesnt think theyre going to win it in two years. The president wants to say were going to take back the house and do it in two years. Thats a prediction. The president didnt say that. I was out there with the president. The best thing about that was seeing the different lawmakers and what they were wearing. Nancy pelosi, of course, in her peach jacket. Jim mcdermott clearly crush it in a soccer jersey, one of the sweaty ones. It was well done. Mcdermott on the back. Im glad you threw in it was a white jersey. I dont know if it was a seattle team. I dont know what their colors are. I should know that. It looked like a Bayern Munich engineers where i. Let me talk about the differences. He is relying. The president got landmark legislation through in the first term, but there was very little half dolphing to nancy pelosi. There is something to be said for being many the mud of congress and making it work, making it push it acro