Transcripts For CSPAN3 Korean War Remembered 20170819

Korean peninsula remains a major concern of u. S. Foreignpolicy. Up next on American History tv, former director of the Harry S Truman president ial library Michael Devine gives a presentation entitled the korean war remembered. Andg photographs, posters artwork, hollywood films and personal experiences, mr. Devine examines the public and Popular Culture memory of the korean war. Woodrow Wilson Center in washington, d. C. Hosted this hourlong event. Michael thank you very charles for the kind introduction. I am pleased to be here at the woodrow Wilson Center as a fellow. It has been a great experience the last several weeks and i look forward to another bit of research and fellowship here at the center. The work i am going to talk about today is a work in progress. This will eventually be a booklength manuscript describing the korean war and how it is remembered, primarily in the United States, but north and south korea and some of the other countries that were major participants in the korean war. I think this topic is important because it helps us understand the Current Situation in east asia, how those countries get along, what is behind some of the tensions that continue to exist. Of war and the public memory the war has impacted american policymakers and political decisions. I think it is important to understand the memory of the war in order to understand ourselves as americans and as a society. Themes point, i see two developing through my work. One is, the public memory of the korean war has evolved over time and continues to evolve. Traumatices of events, particularly wars, change over time. In the case of the korean war this is particularly so because the war is not over yet. Armistice thatn has halted the Major Military operations. Also to understand the korean war, one needs to look at it, i believe, in the international context. That will be something i will talk a little bit about today. The first image i am presenting here is one that is familiar to many who defended south korea. This is Douglas Macarthur overlooking the bay in china. I arrived in korea 47 years ago, a little more than that now, as a young, twentysomething peace corps volunteer. One of the first places i wanted to visit was in china, to see where the famous landing had taken place in september of 1950. A much different place at that time than it is today. Container ships and thousands, maybe tens of of things ready to be shipped abroad. They cannot drive the 30 miles new automobile. It is home to one of the worlds most modern and uptodate international airports. One thing that remains the same is the statue of macarthur overlooking the bay. I was with some students at that time and i said, that is a really wonderful statue of general macarthur. That should also be one of harry truman. They said, no, truman was bad. It is because of truman that korea is divided. I said, isnt that the good news . If truman had not sent macarthur korea would be united, but under the guys from the north. Korea,ur wanted to unite and that is why macarthur was fired by truman. I try to explain it but it was not the way it happened. I was unsuccessful at that time. Unfortunately now, 47 years later, that is the prevailing attitude in korea. Whether i will have the chance to change minds very much, we will have to see. Introductionirst to the conflicted and competing memories of the korean war. Began 67 years ago and one day. June 20 5, 1950 that the North Koreans attacked. It was a particularly brutal war. A civil war,it was but also in International Conflict instigated by the soviet union. Soon, the chinese were involved as well as the americans and the u. N. Theas a war in which civilian population got caught up in the war. 10 koreans, both north and south, died during the threeyear conflict. Others, of thousands of millions, were injured in one way or another. Thousands of orphans on both sides. A very tragic event. WasAmerican Public dissatisfied with the war the way it was being fought. It was a limited war. Being fought for what americans believed at the time we fought for unconditional surrender. Evenreally never did that, world war ii, finessed the issue of the japanese emperor. The war dragged on into a newsmate, lost interest, of the warm moved from the front page to the midsection of the newspapers. Americans became concerned about atrocities that were committed by the North Koreans, news of atrocities committed by the u. N. Command was kept largely silent until recent decades. American prisoners of war were badly abused and it soon became apparent that there were prisoners that were making confessions to being war criminals, to using criminal using chemical weapons. It proved not to be the case, but yet they did that. Americans became concerned that maybe the veterans returning from the war, and they returned on a rotating basis after the accumulated points for their services, there were no parades to welcome them. Veterans became disillusioned with their service and many spent the next decades trying to forget the war. Another issue that came up during the war, especially with the defection of some p. O. W. s making false confessions, was that maybe american soldiers were easily subjected to brainwashing. The term brainwashing comes about during the korean war. It was devised by a journalist from miami named edward hunter. Here is an american soldier who had been brainwashed and turned into a kind of zombie, not even aware of the tender loving care being administered him by this attractive loving nurse. A testimony quote, before the house of Unamerican Activities Committee in the 1950s, claiming that war has changed its form. The communist had discovered that a man killed by a bullet is useless. Coal. Dig no the objective of communist warfare is to capture in tact the minds of the people and their possessions, so they can be put to use. Thatrather scary notion prisoners of war had been subjected to some sort of treatment, some sort of psychological warfare that had turned them into, again, zombies or people who had lost their ability to think and identify with their own personalities, people who may actually be trained to do damage to the United States once they returned. Immediately following the law following the war, Popular Culture began to interpret events. Movies a poster from a that came out in 1951. In the first full year of the war there was already a hollywood movie. This dell with refugees fleeing from the north. In which the communist north korea had intermixed in their own soldiers, disguised as refugees. They got behind the american lines they did considerable damage. This was a common tactic in the early years of the war. , a veryteresting wellmade movie that came out in 1951. Produced within months of the out break of the war itself. Thispopular movie came out after the war, 1955, it deals with the servicemen pilot played by William Holden who leaves behind his wife, played by grace kelly. And there two young daughters. A great shot of the aircraft taking off and landing. It is based on a James Michener book. It was one of the more popular movies in terms of Box Office Success related to the korean war. This one like the next one, brando,a, with marlon that was occupied japan at the time of the korean war. What is significant is their portrayal of japanese in a very popular sympathetic manner. It is real change from a decade earlier, at the end of world war ii. Another popular movie at the time, based on a military historians book pork chop hill, this starred gregory peck and others you may recognize. Right isry pecks woody stroke. He made a number of movies. One of the first black players in the National Football league. In 1939 played in ucla as jackie robinson. An interesting character in his own right. This movie deals with the harsh andities of trench warfare frustration of fighting a war in which preserving the status quo is the objective rather than a total victory. Here we have Ronald Reagan hanging out with some communist. My goodness. Not to worry. Is a military officer to liberally placed in a situation where he is captured by the North Koreans and chinese to be interrogated. His real job is to check up on what is really going on in these prisoner of war cant. Camps. This movie is called prisoner of war and came out in 1959. There he is making a false confession to american war crimes. Again, it is something that has been set up. It is for a good cause. Here we have paul newman on the righthand side. This is a movie called the rack. Is ais movie, paul newman returning war veteran in 1956. It turns out that while he was in a pow camp. He collaborated with the enemy camps, he collaborated with the enemy and was accused of treason by another soldier in the same p. O. W. Camp. Probably the most famous movie of all, this came out in 1962. The manchurian candidate starring Frank Sinatra and angela lansbury. Totallyhas been brainwashed and program to come back to the United States to assassinate a president ial , a candidate under the control of the communist that will win the election. Movies done about the. A. S. H. Ar m then of course there was a very popular tv series. Theit was really about vietnam war, not the korean war. It happened to be set in korea, but the antiwar activities on part of the doctors and soldiers is something you see in the vietnam era. The korean war ended in 1953 in july, at least the Major Military operations. With only an armistice, a ceasefire. Hostilities increased across the border, the new demilitarized zone, which replaced the 30th parallel as a dividing line. There were numerous instances, perhaps the most famous was, the capture of the North Koreans by the u. S. In 1968. The crew was held prisoner. To brutalsubjected treatment. Here is the director. Here is they fully very north korean captives by giving the International Sign of friendship there. [laughter] they suffered some setbacks because of that. This really didnt help their treatment in captivity when the North Koreans found out what they had done. War as maybef the unnecessary, maybe something that could have been avoided, something that if we fought it, we should have fought for complete victory rather than this divided korea, this persists in the 1960s and 1970s on up into the 1980s. American veterans try to forget the war. They are not feeling good about it, nor does the American Public feel good about it. What is left in south korea seems to be an impoverished military dictatorship. It really isnt so much better than the north. This all changes in 1988 with the summer olympics. That is not my original opinion. There are a number of others, including a scholar here some years ago. Suddenly the public saw glistening skyscrapers, beautiful olympic facilities, a very wellmanaged olympic event, and got the impression that they be south korea is doing pretty well. That was followed that was that wasg year followed the following year by the collapse of the soviet union. A few years later, south korea had its first truly democratic elections. It appeared briefly in the early 1990s that the north korean regime might implode because of the famine, the poverty that existed, and what was perceived as possible political weakness that would occur once the founder of the regime died and was in pretty bad condition in the early 1990s. Koreanse the south begin to memorialize the war. They begin planning a gigantic korean war museum. This is the outside of the museum. The theme of the bcm of the museum, there are really two themes. One is peace and reconciliation with the north. The brutality of the war, the harsh treatment of south korean pows, as well as those in the u. N. Command, the wartime atrocities. These things are all played down. The key is that koreans are all brothers, that somehow they should be united. Perpetrated by outside forces that instigated the north korean attack. The other theme is the International Support that the south korean government had during the war. You see it very prominently displayed outside the front of the museum, the flags of the 22 countries that provided some form of assistance to south korea in the military or humanitarian, during the korean war. This is a famous statue right in front of the museum that shows the two korean brothers embracing, the larger brother, as you might expect, as the south korean. He is fully armed. The little guy is the north korean, who is embracing his older, better armed, and much stronger big brother, but reconciliation is clearly the theme here. The recognition of the support of the u. N. Command, there are these huge columns inside the museum that have these polished granite on which there are the names. I guess this is a metallic piece. It has the names of those who died fighting in the korean war from all the various allied nations. Itsa also is very proud of proud to host American Veterans. This is a sly at took last summer on a visit to korea. These are this is a slide i took last summer on a visit to korea. They are actually korean majors who are giving this veteran a two or of a Historic Site that are in a veteran a tour of this Historic Site. Thousands of American Veterans have been invited back. There are groups that arrange charter flights. Once they are in korea, all their expenses are paid by the south korean government. Again, and acknowledgment of the support from the human command, but also the u. N. Command, koreano helps the south regime and its claim. On the other hand, the exhibits in north korea are all about the great leader and his fearless leadership, brilliant leadership, and brilliant victory. Never defeated in battle. Which is still a dominant philosophy in north korea, that means and pendants that means independence and keeping away from any kind of foreign help. Generally selfreliance would be the best term. Guidebook i have not been to north korea, but i am indebted to a former scholar foron writing the english light which guide englishlanguage guide to the north Korean Museum pagepicture has each has a picture of kim ilsung. There are no mentions of the chinese even though they sent hundreds of thousands of troops to support the North Koreans. No mention of the soviet union, which provided all the arms and equipment for the earliest attack in 1950, and also the military planning. That brings us as we move up in our look at how the war has been , the Korean War Memorial here on the mall. It wasnt until 1984, 2 years after the Vietnam Veterans therial was dedicated, that First National Korean War Veterans Association was even organized. They began immediately to lobby for their own recognition. It is only after the Vietnam Veterans have lobbied successfully come raised money, and build their own very dramatic memorial on the national mall. The building of the Korean War Memorial, just the planning alone, people complain it took longer than fighting the war. There was all kinds of disputes between the original architect, the one he designed. Eventually people from penn who hadiversity produced the design withdrew from the products because so many changes were made. They decided it would not be a wall of her members. Instead there is a kiosk wall of remembrance. Instead there is a kiosk to the side. You can go and there is a touchscreen computer, and you can type in the name, and it shows up. The Korean War Memorial was dedicated in the 1990s during the time of president bill clinton. Like the korean war like the vietnam war memorial, it was built with private money, instigated by the veterans themselves. This led to kind of a boom in memorializing wars on the national mall. We now have a world war ii memorial as well. When the Korean War Memorial was being planned, even though the world war ii veterans didnt initiate this, the public thought this is the greatest generation. They should have their memorial on the mall. So they eventually got one as well. Is a memorial in honolulu, hawaii. There are now about 28 states and untold communities, College Country thatnd the have memorials. I only know of 28 states but i know several of the communities. Every day there is something additional. I show this as an example ushapedhese two structures, one is for vietnam, and one is for korea. It is the only combined vietnam and korea memorial that i know of, just outside the capital of honolulu. It was very controversial in the design phase. It went on for some time. The names are actually on these little granite stones there. Here we are back at the Korean War Memorial. Memorializing anything that is of interest still to people is always a complex process, particularly in a democracy. You have the artist, the , publicts, the veterans boards and commissions all have to weighin. Issues have their own that they want to bring to the floor. Satisfying everyone is impossible. Certainly there have been many critics of the Korean War Memorial here, as well as critics of the memorials that exists throughout the country. However, i think for the most part, they do what they are intended to do. They provide a place of remembrance where people can receive some information about the war, and to provide comfort and some degree of solace to the families and survivors. Let me conclude with a quote in a book, the longest winter. He talked with hundreds of korean war veterans about their service, about their and sour feelings about the war that existed for many years. In one vfw hall he met a gentleman sitting there. He told him, you know, we sat around here now with my other veterans and we try to remember things that we spent the last 50 years trying to forget. With that, ill rep up my comments and turn it over for some commentary. Thank you very much. [applause] before opening up to question and answer with the audience, we will hear some comments from samuel wells, a former associate director of the woodrow Wilson Center. Hes held many other position here at the center. He is currently a cold war fellow with the history and Public Policy program, and also engaged in his own Research Project on the korean war and its impact. Thank you. Dr. Wells i dont have anything that mike said that i disagree with, but i want to add some context that might help some of you understand the broader situation that memorials appear within. Think back about world war i, world war ii, korea, just those three, you can see a pattern that the narratives of individual countries have been shaped very largely by the domestic political agenda of the groups in power. In our country, there are many groups. You got the congress, the executive branch, the veterans, etc. , so all this gets complicated. In countries where there isnt quite as much participation, north korea, the soviet union, that artists the narratives are uniform and fit the agenda. This is even true in south wasa, which for many years almost as authoritarian as the north. Though the incident that mike opened with of the korean thought Douglas Macarthur was the good guy and harry truman was the fountain of evil for insisting that korea remain divided, that is part of the narrative that the administration developed. They wanted to continue the war. He wanted to revitalize and push back, and when the armistice was getting very close to conclusion , he released all the prisoners. North koreans, chinese, everything under the control of the South Koreans. It didnt stop the armistice because both the soviets and the americans, the two driving sources on either side, had decided there was going to be in armistice. And it came about, but thats the way things began. Of nationallyt driven narratives, mike is absolutely correct that things began to change in 1988 with the oul olympics, but they continued with the collapse of and the opening of archives in Eastern Europe and moscow. Documents that Charles Krause referred to to tell us what really went on. We learned some very different accounts from what we had thought. We found out, among other things, that the North Koreans had been the ones really pushing for the invasion, and they had been put off for a long time by stalin. We found out that stalin changed his mind, that he was getting pushed very hard by mao zedong to return a lot of the concessions made to the peoples republic by the nationalist regime in 1945. Because he his mind thought he would need those concessions if he were in control of the government that could dominate all of korea. ,e would have what he wanted plus be a threat to the american antrol of japan, which was point of leverage he thought would be very useful. We learned also that the chinese were somewhat hasnt to come in, but importantly they decided to when mao realized that the American Intervention was going to create a situation in which he had to change his objectives for the peoples republic. The leader of be communism in asia. Someew or believed that at point, in order to achieve that objective, he would have to fight the United States, and he wanted to do that on korean territory rather than chinese. , ando had his own agenda the war was not three weeks old before he had decided that the peoples republic was going to intervene with volunteers, and he started moving toward it. These are some of the things we have learned in the meantime. What has happened, of course, with the internet and social media is that these National Narratives cant hold up anymore. , ifone can sit in russia they know the proper shortcuts ,round the firewall in china and read the documents we have online giving cable traffic between stalin, mao, and kim ilsung about the war. They can read books by international scholars, including people like charles armstrong, catherine weathersby, and a group of very able and productive chinese scholars. And some russian scholars, one of whom teaches at manchester university. It is an absolutely fascinating, very compact little book. It tells us more of the actual information about stalins than any ofnning the previous scholars. I will stop there just to say that the combination of the opening of archives and now the internet, social media, and Research Projects using multiple archives complicate the ability of anyone to set up a single narrative about this or any other conflicted item in international relations. Thank you. [applause] ok, we will now open up the floor to question and answer. We have microphones, so please wait for the microphone to come to you. If you could identify yourself before asking your brief question. Keep the questions brief so we can get as many in. We will start up here. Talk. Derful i am wondering if you are familiar with the book called in every war but one, which affect was the first book in america to have an introspective review of the stalemate in korea. I certainly dont agree with the central thesis. I dont even know if it is in print, but i would like to hear your comments. Michael i dont know that it is in print, but im sure is amazon. Com, where just about anything is available. It is great to be here at the woodrow Wilson Center, if even for a couple of weeks, because we have access to the holdings at the library of congress. Was ak this pow issue result of a lot of mythology that americans always sought to escape from their captives, which was and somehow, they didnt in korea. Actually, some did try to escape, but it was virtually impossible for americans to disguise themselves and travel several hundred miles in the furthest parts of north korea all the way back down and get through the dmz. The gran peninsula is pretty narrow. No one really made very good headway. The climate of their, especially in the winter, is just rudolph is just brutal. That notion needs to be qualified he did qualified a bit. Even the idea of brainwashing and people doing false confessions, there are some instances of that early on, but in most cases the opponents of the United States didnt try to force that kind of thing out of american captives. The notion that there was some kind of special technique, some new Psychological Development that the soviets and chinese and North Koreans had developed, i think this has been pretty much debunked. The tactics they used were not all that different from what Police Forces in the United States and elsewhere have used for generations to extract confessions from suspects. Sometimes real confessions and sometimes false confessions just to avoid further painandsuffering further pain and suffering. There has been a lot of attention paid lately in the media about the American Air Campaign against north korea during the korean war. It is one explanation for why north korea wanted to eventually acquire a Nuclear Weapon. It is interesting to see that the northbate koreans are using this as justification for their nuclear program. It was interesting to see brian myers recently countering that, saying that it doesnt play a strong role in north korean mythology about the war. I would like your comments on that. Doubt thatere is no the bombing of north korea was extensive. It was the first war in which napalm was used in air campaigns. On a relentless basis. It had been used in world war ii in the bombing of tokyo, but korea took it to the next level. 1953, most analysts of the point outs strategy that there werent really many targets left in north korea. Almost all the public buildings have been destroyed. Manufacturing and warehousing of military supplies at all moved underground had all moved underground. Just how effective the air campaign was late in the war is subject to some debate just as after world war ii there is an extensive study of the effects of the air war against germany. That germany was actually producing about as much in their factories for the war effort as they had been before the air campaign started. Still there seems to be this believe that somehow the United States can win a war simply by bombing. Politicalard a candidate talk about the way to solve the problem in syria was to carpet bomb the whole country last year. There is still that notion. I think what really influenced the North Koreans this is a little off point of my work but what influenced them to decide to develop a Nuclear Weapon was looking around the world and noticing that there was no longer a Saddam Hussein or muammar gaddafi, and with those two had in common was they didnt have weapons of mass destruction. Y did have Nuclear Weapons they didnt have Nuclear Weapons. The small nations that did, like israel for example, just having those as a kind of doomsday device seems to be effective. The northgue that koreans are well aware of what happened during the war. They are well aware of the bombing. But i dont think that was what led them to develop their nukes as much as their concern that they could be subject to attack by nations that surround them, including the United States, if they didnt have the nuclear deterrent. We will go to the back. Thank you for a terrific talk. Very informative and engaging. I have a question for mr. Devine and mr. Wells. How were you treated as a peace corps volunteer, and how was the peace corps in general treated in that earlier era . Mentionedlls, no one the decision not to include korea in the defense perimeter that the United States has established. How much did that way on soviet and north korean how much did that weigh on soviet and north korean thinking . Michael i peace corps experience took place in a much different korea. When i arrived0 after three months of training and hawaii and suddenly it was the end of january. The first thing i noticed was it was kind of cold. I was treated very well, much better than i deserved. I dont want to take a lot of credit for it. I certainly learned a lot. It confirmed in me that i wanted to come back and study american diplomatic history in u. S. Foreign relations. I developed some lasting friendships and even ended up marrying a teacher at a nearby womens college. Weve been together for 47 years, so i guess all these things would indicate i was treated pretty well. I should point out that when i was in korea, i had a room in this little house with a professor at a university which was near the university where i was teaching. This fellow had studied in europe and had become very fond , and also french belgian pastries. He taught his wife had to make these pastries, and taught his house made her to make cafe au lait. I was able to get 20 worth of supplies at the commissary at the embassy. Always get my landlord a nice bottle of Johnny Walker scotch. When my friends would come in from the countryside, where they didnt it didnt mean what it appears to mean to nonmilitary planners. Mao of course, stalin and ho were used to the kind of propaganda that emanated from oscow and would soon come out to in equal fashion from it as a potential item of disinformation. Come in, we can ultimately, it plan that was he evolving. Do you see consistent themes representations of the korean war in the United States . Once i visited and eteran groups that ive interviewed, there are certain themes that are similar. One. Veterans groups. Really not the case at all until 88 olympics and well into the 1990s. Federal government will provide space and maybe agree to a but the actual construction requires some to commitment to raising. And that wouldnt be possible to to fact that the consensus the United States that the war that halted communism. T deterred further aggression in the far east. That it was worth the sacrifice. Thats a consistent theme. Own observation as a diplomatic historian. While no one was satisfied or is satisfied even to this day with war have e of the enjoyed enprecedented peace, stability, and economic in the six decades armistice was signed. Themess in the war useum, its primarily the war. An to go more than half a century with no invasion, that was remarkable. And while theres certainly been some unpleasantness in east asia along the dmz are what they are, the fact remains no major conflict to g those powers for close thats a ow and remarkable thing. To look at u have the war enhow it was fought and ended to explain that. Had it not been successful with he landing, would that have been the end of the war . Mean, would the North Koreans have taken over the peninsula as unsuccessful landing . Well, thats hard to say. Mean, especially since it didnt happen, you know, ngaging in counterfactual history can always be its interesting to speculate but at time, impossible to come up with a solid conclusion. United states by the pretty that invasion was ell committed to preserving korea. President ial library for 13 he saw it as a soviet inspired attack. From the doubt right beginning even though he didnt have access to the ocumentations, it was the soviets. He believed it might be a diversary tactic because they really interested in something in europe or the to give up but that on korea at this point to that unprovoked and maybe could have been a much wider war. To indochina and but to hear these 30foot tides, i just wanted to like and what ks mcarthur was up against and see walls. Ea ts an impressive military maneuver. You just have these mud flats and when t for miles the tides come in, you can bring any kind of ship you want. Certainly the timing was i that in the parenation, you mention presentation you of ioned one of the themes the constantly evolving memory of how the war is remembered and him to see how the South Koreans kind of changed the way they remember or commemorated the war. Theres anything similar happened to north oreans even though theyre the way obviously more uniform and kind of like controlled by of state but had any kind changes happened throughout the to now about how they delayed or or whoever was conflict. N the well, from what i can tell in public memory and the remembrance of the war that in their museums Historic Sites, i havent been to north korea but ive talked people who have been and i have lit and as sam points out, quite a bit of information even from north korea on the internet now at like its ooks pretty it looks pretty consistent. The great leader. Brilliant leadership. His strategy. Brochure that i alluded guerrillashe band of fighting in the mountains of north korea that brought japan 1945. S knees in august of no mention of the chinese, the americans, the other allies, the soviet union. Nuclear weapons. T was the north korean guerrillas in the mountains that did this. If you look ght, cross from the south into the north into the dmz and you get binocular powered things, almost anywhere you statues of or four im ill song in these mock so i es theyve built think as long as the kim family is in control, the public narrative of the korean the democratic peoples republic of north korea is going the same. Its the other countries with ccess to documents, new interpretatio at rpretations, looking changes that have taken place is what is causing the memory to parts of the r world. You for as little money as possible. Protect thing was to american lives, liberty, and property from tyrants foreign and domestic. Then new jersey residents and the 1967 discuss rebellion. There were 268 reports of fire. No snipers were ever found. No evidence. Other than police gun shells. No footprints. Fingerprints. Nothing was found. Yet 26 people were killed. Policeman, one fireman. The rest citizens. Forces he three police operating. Thisee