Transcripts For MSNBC All In With Chris Hayes 20240925

Need any votes. I've got all the votes we need. All i want to make sure is that we guard our vote. The trump plan to cheat instead of when hits a snag. I hope the people in nebraska understand this may come down to a single electoral vote. Can i tell the republican attempt to change nebraska's voting system six weeks before the election failed thanks to one republican state senator. In 2016 president trump one. In 2020 president biden one. Come in and work for the vote. He will join me live. Plus women will be happy, healthy, confident and free. Senator elizabeth warren on trump's message to women and national security spokesman john kirby on the president's final address to the united nations. My fellow leaders, let us never forget some things are more important than staying in power. When all in starts right now. Good evening from new york, i am chris hayes. There is a basic dynamic in this election cycle that is not getting enough attention and it is this. The trump era republican party would rather cheat than when and i don't mean they will lie about migrants or teachers or trans people, they want to win regardless the votes or sometimes actually they prefer to win through subterfuge than actual democratic politics. If that sounds hyperbolic or weird, you don't have to take my word for it, just ask donald trump. I tell my people i don't need any votes. We've got all the votes we need to. I don't need votes. All we want to do is make sure we guard our votes. We stop the steel. There are a lot of expressions. I want the vote guarded because we don't need the votes. We don't need votes, we need protection of the votes once they are cast. We don't need the votes, i have so many votes. We don't need votes, we have more votes that anybody has ever had. We need to watch the vote. Think about this. He says it all the time. He is telling people considering to vote for him, i don't want more votes. What i want is to control the electoral system. And you should take donald trump seriously when he says that, because he keeps saying it. A campaign that is serious about winning the most votes starts with a serious ground game. A field operation that knocks on doors and helps writers find rides to the polls. He benefited from an rnc get out the vote campaign that worked. Trump is now outsourced the operation to super pacs run by charlie kirk and elon musk. The swing state republican operative told nbc news this month there is no tangible evidence that trump and the rnc have invested in the kind of ground game you need. Local republicans are not being asked to knock on doors, make phone calls, text rotors or even harvest mailin ballots. Instead they are being asked to be poll watchers in republican counties or localities with republican clerks. Instead of a ground game, trump and the rnc recruited 170,000 volunteers to execute the election integrity program otherwise known as protect the vote. Under this operation the rnc already filed 115 lawsuits across 25 states, compared with 79 four years ago and election day is still weeks away. So under trump, republicans believe they don't need voter outreach. They need poll watchers and lawyers and challenges to laws that make voting easier. As we saw in georgia last week when a maga majority on that states election board voted to require a hand count of ballots in that state. A move that could drastically lengthen the amount of time to tally results in the critical battleground state. The georgia republican attorney general's office suggested the move is legal and the republican secretary of state says it could cause chaos, but it was approved by board members who have been praised by former president donald trump. All of this is reminiscent of the 2020 election. Remember when trump made that phone call to the georgia secretary of state asking him to steal the election? now he did that behindthe scenes and secret, but when the news of the call broke in the media, he doubled down. He tried to launder the subterfuge by being like yeah, we did it. He acted like it was another perfect phone call and now he is doing it again, right in front of us. Not just battleground states. We know this is a very tight election. It could be one of the closest in presidential history, so every possible electoral vote matters because electoral votes decide the presidency. Most states give all the electoral votes to the winner of the popular vote. Two states are not winner take all. Those states are maine and nebraska, where whoever gets the most votes in a district wins that districts single electoral vote. Even though nebraska is a pretty red state, the district containing omaha tends to vote blue. Since barack obama took the district in 2008, it has been a competitive district for democrats and republicans. A swing district. The converse is true in maine. The state where one electoral vote went to donald trump in the last two elections. In most elections none of this would be too important, but let's have a look at this map. This is what the electoral college would look like if donald trump want all the states he took in 2020+ georgia, arizona and nevada. It suddenly becomes critical that harris takes that single blue dot in omaha. That vote would be the difference between winning the election with 270 votes and becoming president or tying donald trump with 269 votes, a tie that the republican dominated congress could then break in trump's favor. So democracy itself could depend on the single vote districts. So of course back in april trump and republicans pushed hard for nebraska legislators to pass a bill making it a winner take all state. It was a push led by charlie kirk, the same far right commentator who super pac is now running trump's get out the vote. It did not work. Nebraska republicans did not change voting rules, in part because of the threat from maine that maine democrats would change theirs. Mutually assured destruction. If both states become winner take all, neither party gets an advantage and so the effort died last spring. In fact, listen to this carefully. Maine's chance to change its rules passed quietly last month. You see, that is because a bill takes 90 days to become a law after it is passed in maine. Last wednesday marked 90 days before the electoral college meets in december. Last wednesday was the deadline for maine to be able to change its electoral college system in time for the electoral college. Guess what happened last wednesday in nebraska? state lawmakers along with south carolina senator lindsey graham came together for a conversation regarding winner take all. In that closeddoor meeting we're told graham was trying to drum up support to change the way nebraska hands out its electoral college votes. Reservoir dogs. Both with the gun pointed at each other. Maine drops the gun and nebraska is like, why don't we talk about that winner take all? assured that maine could not retaliate anymore, low and behold it was back on the menu. Nebraska republicans moved to change the rules to favor trump and once again, once the behind thescenes move became public, graham openly admitted what he was doing. Trying to launder it as normal politics. Nebraska has been talking about this for years. It is a very close election. The entire federal delegation of nebraska want this change. To my friends in nebraska, that one electoral vote could be the difference between harris being president or not and she is a disaster for nebraska and the world. Side note. The electoral college is a rube goldberg machine that invites this antidemocratic sabotage. What are we doing here? kampala votes. The person with the most votes should win like every other election in america except president. That said, republicans would rather cheat. We saw this time and time again in 2020 when trump and lindsey graham and the rest of the maga world pressured brad raffensperger to change votes in georgia after they were already cast. To appoint a fake slate of electors. In both cases, america's future hung in the balance. Trump's attacks on democracy only failed because the courage and integrity of individual republicans like brad raffensperger in georgia and rusty bowers in arizona, resisting the pressure to rigged the system. Now that appears to be exactly what is happening in nebraska. Nebraska republicans need a filibuster proof majority. One single republican senator could block that plan and wanted. His name is senator mike mcdonnell. A former democrat who announced yesterday he was a no vote on the change. If you look at my position, it has been known and i believe it makes omaha relevant. It brings dollars into our city. We are talking potentially $50 million impact this round. And also it means you've got to work for it. You've got to work for our vote. The last one is the biggest one, it seems to me. Trump on that district in 2016. It is not completely out of reach. He keeps telling his supporters and campaign workers, i don't need votes. I need to watch the vote. Ultimately donald trump would rather cheat than when. Nebraska republican state senator mike mcdonnell, the man of the hour, joins me now. Thanks for making time for us tonight. Good evening. Thanks for the invitation. I wonder for an informational start, if from your perspective you could guide us through the conversations in the statehouse and the republican caucus through this year, going back to april when it first surfaced as an idea and then it seemed to go away and made a sudden comeback last week. I like to start with thanking all the people that have reached out to me on both sides and 90% of them have been professional and polite. Of course, passionate. I understand this is a serious issue and a serious decision and i do appreciate all of the thousands of emails and conversations and going back to 2016 when i decided to run for the legislature and we are the only one house system in the country. We do that better and most states should look to changing over to that system, but i said the reason i want to keep the system we have and not go to winner take all, which was changed in 1991, was the idea that it makes omaha relevant and it makes the economic impact, but it makes people work for our vote. Come on in and talk to us and work for our vote. Sometimes people think it is a sign of weakness. It is not. We work hard and we play by the rules. Come on in, work hard, play by the rules. Don't try to change them with 42 days left to change the rules in place since 1991 and as you said earlier, look at the pass. President biden in 2020. Work for that vote and you can win, but you have to come in and work and you've got to talk to us. It seems to me days here is my feeling about this and i am curious what you think. If you went to winner take all in 2023 or you had a statewide referendum or even earlier this year, i would say that is political hardball by republicans, but it is okay. It is hardball. 43 days before the election, after maine has already past the window, seems like something not on the up and up. What do you think? i talked about this and others have talked about it. Let's do it in the midterm. Go ahead and let the people of nebraska vote. I would oppose this. To switch to winner take all. The people in nebraska want to do it two years out and let whoever wants to run for president of the united states know the rules, that would be fair. I think we should take winner take all and go around the country and ask the other parts of the country to look at our system. All 435 congressional district should look at the way we are doing things, because you are talking about going to the people and not talking about 33 senators make a decision. I know this isn't a game and i know a football game isn't very important, but the idea that the coach calls a timeout with two minutes left and says i want to change the value of the field goal and that is how i will win. It does not ring true and that is not part of nebraska values. We want to let the people make the decision and to president trump and vice president harris, come to omaha, have a debate. Debate in omaha. Again, work for that vote as others have done in the past, including president trump and president biden. Have you received any communication from x president trump directly? has he attempted to talk to you? i don't talk about private conversations. I can say that people have reached out through phone calls and emails and both sides really have worked hard, but they have been 90% professional and polite and i would say both campaigns were 100% professional and polite and we had good conversations. I tried to tell people, tell me why i am wrong. Teach me something i don't know, but since 2016 when i ran i have been consistent on this issue based on the idea that i think this is better than winner take all. Better for our democracy. Let people vote. Also how about the green dot? it is an economic boost to the city of omaha. Come and talk to the people of the second congressional district and work for that vote and that potential win. I know that trump said you were wrong about this sandblasted you on truth social, which i am sure is par for the course. Are you prepared, i guess, for the glare of that to intensify? well, i stand behind my word and for eight years you can talk to my colleagues. I have 48 colleagues that i know work hard and are good people, but i disagree with on a number of issues. You can talk to them and they will tell you that i keep my word and the idea of representing the people. I represent district 5, south omaha. I represent those people and i will stand up for those people and all the city of omaha and nebraska and the country. Are you running for mayor of omaha, did i understand that correctly? we're definitely thinking about that and looking at making an announcement potentially coming up, but right now we are focused on state senate until january 8. We are serving the constituents as state senator and i am proud and honored to do it and it has been a great eight years for me and all the people i've gotten to know. You agree or disagree with people and they say if you are pleasing everyone you are lying to someone, so of course there will be disagreements. Ronald reagan said if you agree 80% of the time i call you a friend. I don't call you a 20% enemy. I think that is the approach we have to have. We have to be passionate and work on things. At the end of the day decisions have to be made and as i said in 2016, i said no to winner take all. I don't think it is fair. I think if people want to vote two years out and change it, fine. I would rather keep it winner take all, because i think it benefits omaha and our state versus the idea of making us relevant and also the economy, but also i think it is a fair system. Final question for you. Were you surprised to see the republican senator from south carolina in your state, meeting with your colleagues in that body? lindsey graham lobbying on this issue. We want people to come in. We want to meet people and hear their ideas and concerns and thoughts. Now, the idea of coming into nebraska, please. I mentioned earlier i would like to have vice president harris and president trump come into our state and have that debate. But now, people coming in to talk to us, i think that is fine and part of democracy and again i try to listen and i try to understand, but the end of the day i say no to winner take all. Thank you so much for your time tonight. Good talking to you. Thank you for the invitation. Have a good night. Coming up, trump promises to protect women after dismantling reproductive rights. Senator elizabeth warren joins me next. Me next. University of maryland global campus is a school for real life, one that values the successes you've already achieved. Earn up to 90 undergraduate credits for relevant experience and get the support you need from your first day to graduation day and beyond. What will your next success be? thursday night football on prime. It's on. Ready to have some fun? yeah, let's do it. The dallas cowboys take on the new york giants, as thursday night football is on. 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According to the latest nbc's news polling, kamala harris holds a 21 point advantage over trump with female voters. Trump is also down 21 points on a key issue that matters to a lot of american women and men as well. 54% say kamala harris would be better than trump on abortion rights. Now the republican nominee is trying to bridge this very serious gulf by basically telling women we have to end this national nightmare. Because i am your protector. I want to be your protector. As president i have to be your protector. You will no longer be abandoned, lonely or scared. You will no longer be in danger. You're not going to be in danger any longer. You will no longer have anxiety from all of the problems our country has today. Women will be happy, healthy, confident and free. You will no longer be thinking about abortion. It is all they talk about, abortion. Joining me now is senator elizabeth warren, democrat of massachusetts. It's good to have you on the program. Good to be here. Well, what do you think about this pitch that donald trump will be your protector and he is talking to you as an american woman and he will protect you so well that you won't even have to worry about all of this politics stuff, like abortion. This is really creepy. Really. This is just creepy. This has this, you will be happy and you will be happy doing exactly what donald trump and his extremist friends have decided that you are allowed to do. And you know, i have to say it actually fits with the whole mindset of saying donald trump and an extremist branch in this country will decide who gets access to abortion, ivf, contraception. It is this, they will make the decisions and women, bless us, will simply say thank you and be so happy about all of it. You know i just want to give him a little advice. That is not how we work. Women actually want to make our own decisions and if we consult people, we would like to be the ones who decide who we consult. That it should not be the case that the government or really it is donald trump and a handful of extremists, come in and decide healthcare decisions and what kind of medical care that we will be able to receive. It is. It is just creepy, chris. Anthony comstock, after whom the comstock act is named saw himself also as a protector of women. That law which is essentially still on the books and thanks to trump's court could be utilized by a justice department on day one as they call for in project 2025 to criminalize abortion and contraception being mailed anywhere on the first day. Exact right and remember j. D. Vance has already written a letter to the department of justice telling the department of justice to get out and enforce the comstock act and take away access to abortion to every person in this country. No more access at all and you know this is the reminder, obviously, why we need kamala harris in the white house, but also why we need democratic control of congress and particularly democratic control of the senate. You're covering the races here and i am so glad you are about this, but this is really the moment. Look at what is going on around the country where more and more people are standing up and saying i care about the abortion issue. I care about being able to make my decision or letting women make their decisions. This will be on the ballot in florida and it means if that senate race is indirect contention. You are looking for a race that you want to say where is a possible pickup for democrats? it will be in a place like florida where people are coming to the polls to be able to vote, to say we want access to abortion and while we are here, we would like to have a democratic senator who actually would help kamala harris put a wall in place that make sure there is no comstock act and that some republican president on his own in the future cannot just wave his wand and get rid of access to abortion. I want to ask a question about senate candidate bernie moreno, running against her colleague in ohio and he said this at a town hall which i want to play for you, which i think is actually widely shared among republicans, which is headscratching, like what is up with the obsession with the abortion thing? why do they care so much? he does not quite get why women over 50 care about the issue. Take a listen. Sadly by the way there are a lot of suburban women that are like listen, if i can't have an abortion whenever i want, i will vote for anybody else, okay? hold on. Especially women that are like past 50. What do you think of that one? so, this is the plan to win votes from women? look, as i understand it, the people of ohio have spoken on the question of abortion and they voted on this last year and came together and said by a pretty large majority that they want to have access to abortion and that they really don't want to go down this path of having the government make decisions for them. But to me, this is all the same mindset about people like donald trump just saying that they are the ones going to make this decision and patting sweet little women on the head and telling us we are all going to be happy with whatever it is that they decide. Newsflash. We are not going to be happy about it and we are not going to go along with it at all. That is why i think we are backing up kamala harris and backing up democratic control of the senate and backing up democratic control of the house, because that combination is literally the only possible way that we can protect access to abortion. Protect access to ivf, all across this country. So, yes, yes, yes, we have to help kamala harris, but also we have to help republicans in the senate. Florida maybe a pickup opportunity. Texas is looking like a pickup opportunity and defending our democrats who are fighting right now to hang onto their senate seats. That is our pathway to protect access to abortion in red states and blue states, because those republicans are making it clear they are coming for everybody. They want to ban abortion nationwide. This is our chance to fight back. As you know, colin allred is a democratic candidate in texas. And in florida. Senator elizabeth warren, always great to have you. Thank you. Good to be here. 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I decided after 50 years of service it was time for a new generation of leadership. My fellow leaders, let us never forget, some things are more important than staying in power. That lesson, if you will, was a knob not only to his decision to bow out of the race, but also donald trump's attempts to subvert democracy and still the election. It could also be interpreted as a message to a bunch of people in that room including minister benjamin netanyahu, accused of intentionally prolonging his country's brutal siege of gaza to maintain his own grasp on political office. Now with the u. N. General assembly underway, world leaders have another opportunity to discuss the end of that war, but there still doesn't seem to be a ceasefire deal. At the same time, ukrainian president zelenskyy is also making his case to escalate the fight against the russian invasion in his country, raging for more than 2 1/2 years. 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Voters rank foreignpolicy low on the list of priorities. As we have seen before sometimes foreignpolicy john kirby is the white house national security medications advisor entrance me now. Good to be with you. Let's start with lebanon. There is a quote from an israeli source about the calculation of what israel had done with the pagers and the walkietalkies and the airstrikes as deescalation through escalation. This quote went viral, i think you understand why. What do you say to people who say this looks terrifyingly like the beginnings of a regional war? that is exactly what we are worried about and exactly the message the president had today at the general assembly. We want to deescalate the tensions. We don't want to see an all out war and i would argue that almost everything we have been doing since october has been to prevent that outcome. Now the way that the israelis have talked about what they've done in the last couple of days in particular was to preempt what they believed and had intelligence that convinced them there would be eminent attacks by hezbollah. Rocket missile attacks. The attacks today were later than yesterday. That is a welcome sign, but obviously we are watching this closely. It is a dangerous moment we are in right now and we continue to urge both sides to step back. We believe, the president believes, that there is a diplomatic solution to be had. That solution which i think everyone agrees that the center of this is the cessation of hostilities in gaza and some kind of deal. The white house has pushed for that. It has advocated for that time and time again. It seems like it is not happening and i know it is like a stuck peanut butter jar and you've got to keep working it, but the members of netanyahu's own coalition have threatened to leave if such a deal were to materialize. Reporting in israel suggests he does not want to deal and that there is reporting that hamas does not want to deal. If there is not a deal on the table, what is the out? if that is the major strategic objective of our government? it is to continue to find a path forward to get that deal and i'm not going to blow smoke. We have not made the progress we hope to make in the past few weeks and there is no indication right now that he is interested at all in any good faith way in coming to an outcome and getting a cease fire in place, but that does not mean it is not worth it. As the president said the other day, everything is unrealistic until all of a sudden it is not anymore. You can try and fail 100 times in a negotiation and you don't know when you'll get that one outcome. We are keeping at it because we still believe that is the best way to end this war. It is obvious that the u. S. Leverage is essentially nil. We can try diplomatic partnerships, but we don't have direct leverage. Not with hamas, no, it is a terrorist organization. With the israeli government we do have leverage. We are the largest funder of their military. They have a special program to purchase u. S. Weapons in a streamlined fashion. We have a traditional arms transfer policy and the law that guides the lawful transfer of weapons to countries that are in line with international humanitarian law and i want to read from a propublica report today that the u. S. Government foremost authorities concluded this spring that israel deliberately blocked deliveries of food and medicine in gaza. It was explosive because u. S. Law requires the government to cut off weapons shipments to countries that prevent delivery of aid. Days later, secretary of state blinken delivered a carefully worded statement to congress that said we do not currently assess that the israeli government is prohibiting or restricting the transport or delivery of u. S. Humanitarian assistance. Did the secretary of state override the assessment? i can't speak to the details of the propublica report. I saw it this afternoon the same as you, but i can't speak to the veracity of it. I can speak to a couple of things. Number one, we take our obligations under international humanitarian law very seriously. We obviously know that a linchpin of any democracy that is at war is to be at war in keeping with the laws of war and you are treating innocent life as seriously as possible and being as careful as you can. We have made that case to the israelis time and time again since october 7. I'm not going to sit here and say that they have not caused too many civilian casualties. Thousands and thousands. They absolutely have and each death is tragic. Each matters a lot to president biden and we continued to press that case. The second thing i would say in keeping with the statement as you read it is the state department has a process. They have two. Where they evaluate incidents as they are. As you and i are speaking they have not made an assessment that there has been a violation of international humanitarian law, but they still have cases and incidents they are examining as you and i are speaking. I think the skeptics would say this and i will end on this note. Basically the political nature of our alliance with israel, for a bunch of reasons, geostrategic, domestic politics, a whole bunch of reasons, means that we are with them. They are our allies and we are not going to cut them off no matter what they do. There is no redline. There is nothing the israeli government could do that would mean we would suspend our treatments because that is who we are backing here. I would not go so far. Yes, they are our ally and the president has been consistent that we will do what we have to do to help them defend themselves. He even put american fighter pilots in the sky to help shoot dow jones and missiles in april. We are serious when we say israel has a right to defend itself. No country would want to live next to those threats just across the border and any country that did would certainly be within their rights to defend themselves. I would not go so far as to say that we aren't willing to make difficult decisions. When they were going into rafah a few months ago, a very densely populated area, we withheld a shipment of 2000 pound bombs because we had concerns. You can't drop those kinds of munitions and be precise and targeted. White house national security communications advisor john kirby. It is great to have you here. Come back to the studio anytime. Trump's latest threats to his enemies and why a united states senator is taking them seriously. Next. Hellooo new apartment. One bank for now. For later. For life. Chase. Make more of what's yours. If you're living with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis or active psoriatic arthritis, symptoms can sometimes hold you back. 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Dayquil honey, the honeylicious, daytime, coughing, aching, stuffy head, fever, power through your day, medicine. I used to leak urine when i coughed, laughed or exercised. I couldn't even enjoy playing with my kids. I leaked too. I just assumed it was normal. Then we learned about bulkamid an fdaapproved, nondrug solution for our condition. It really works, and it lasts for years. It's been the best thing we've done for our families. Visit findrealrelief. Com to find an expert physician near you. Ask if bulkamid is right for you and discuss potential risks. Results and experiences may vary. Move beyond the leaks. F0 they were very brave the supreme court. Very brave. And they take a lot of hits because of it. It should be illegal what happens. You have the guys playing in the ref, the great bobby knight. These people should be put in place for the way they talk about our judges and justices. In some level you might think that's just hyperbole but he talks about punishing his enemies. Asking how am i going to protect 25 grand kids. And author of biography mitt romney is available on paper back as of today complete with new recording and he joins me now. It was really interesting to see your reporting from romney who is retiring as u. S. Senator. He will reenter private life after this spell. And is thinking about what his life would be like with trump as president. Without the full expectation that it's not at all crazy the abuse of the justice system to go after him. Yeah, i mean that was one of the striking things in reporting this kind of new material for the book. I had heard from people who were friends with him that he was pivately musing about where he and his wife would have to leave the country, move abroad if trump won. He added that he wasn't necessarily serious when he said that. But people seemed to think that he was serious. When i sat down to talk to him and asked what does life look to you if trump is elected. It was clear this was an issue he had thought about a lot. He said, you know look, i don't think that i have anything in my past that would warrant an investigation or an indictment. You know, i don't have classified files. I haven't had an affair. I haven't abused my power. But i told him, that doesn't mean that a trump administration wouldn't go after you. And he kind of immediately started talking about. Well i have 25 grand kids. I have five son, five daughters inlaw. I'm a big group. How am i going to protect everyone. It was clear that this was looming large in his mind and he knows there's really no solution to it given trump's repeated threats of retribution against his political enemies. This is a place where policy whoever is working in that justice department, not just now but down the line when the call comes from the white house. It's perfectly appropriate, went out of his way saying, perfectly fine for the president to do whatever he wants. For instance. Go start investigations on all five of romney's sons. It does come down to who goes wrong and who doesn't. Yeah. Your study of sort of these profiles and integrity of conservatives said no. One to start the show. Nebraska senator mike mcdonald who wouldn't go along with this nebraska thing but it's amazing how much it comes down to people having integrity and ethics to say no when it matters. I remember a few years ago. He said he was trying to convince himself that things would be all right if trump won. It wasn't going to be the end of democracy. He wants to think that most people do right. They don't want to be crooks and liars and steal elections at the end of the day. And i raised my eyebrow and said, you know we've seen a lot of evidence to the contrary. They can convince themselves they're right. He slumped in his seat and said you're right, but i don't know what to do about it. It depends on who's going to be on the administration and who's going to be asked to follow through on these orders. By all accounts, trump is going to fill his administration with loyalists. People who will obey him. I think this is what worries mitt romney. It seems he should support kamala harris. You have folks like romney i would say mike pence, esper is one of them as well. Donald trump clearly a menace a threat to democracy but what can you do. I am curious how you rationalize him. I interviewed him earlier in the year for this paper back. At the time joe biden was still the democratic nominee. He told me in that occasion that he had not ruled the idea of backing biden. When i asked if he wanted to comment again. He didn't want to. He wants to stay out of the presidential race. I think that mitt romney has internalized this idea. This is based on a lot of conversations i've had in the past years. He has a lot of influence, his endorsement will not matter. Before it everyone backfires. Exactly. He's also a guy who has gotten a lot of endorsements over the course of

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