Great show. Thank you. Okay, so yesterday propublicaes published a recordg they obtained of the President And Ceo of a conservative group called the first Liberty Institute, and on the tape the president reads his donors an email that the first Liberty Institute got from Ginni Thomas. G i got an Email Today from Ginni Thomas, justice thomas wife, so i want to read that to you. You guys have filled the sails of manyll judges. Can i just tell you thank and this is in all caps thank you so, so much. To understand how exactly inappropriate that email is from the wife of a sitting supreme Court Justice you have to first understand what it is that firstst Liberty Institute actually does. Were the nations largest Law Firm exclusively supporting religiouslu liberty. Weve recently won four Supreme Court cases. We win over 90 of our cases, which is unheard of the in the legal world. And at the Supreme Court our record is nine wins and zero losses. That is correct. The organization that Ginni Thomas was thanking so profusely is a Law Firm that specializes in trying to change the law by bringing cases before the Supreme Court, you know, the court where Ginni Thomas husband, Clarence Thomas, is a sitting justice. Even if you dont know first liberty by name, you may know some of the cases the group has brought before the high court. First Liberty H sued to strike down the state of Maines Ban on using Public Founding to pay for religious schools. They represented that bakery in Oregon Whoseey owners refused T Make A cake for a samesex wedding. And they brought a big case opposing Vaccine Mandates for religious groups. All of those cases made their way to the Supreme Court, and first liberty won all of them. But that actually isnt the work Ginni Thomas is praising in that email to first liberty. Ms. Thomas was thanking the group for theiras work on this kind of stuff. So now theyre coming right out and saying it. Political elites from the radical left want to overthrow the Supreme Court. So how do they plan ongoing about this . By flooding the Supreme Court with cronies. In other words, by installing a permanent automatic majority. Soto what would you call it whe theres an attempt to overthrow an a entire branch of our government . Lets call it whatf it is. A Supreme Court coup. Where have we seen a coup like this before . Venezuela under hugo chavez. In the wake of the Supreme Courts numerous and recent scandals many of which involve clarence and Ginni Thomas first Liberty Has been playing defense. They have been Publishing Articles and Running Ads and essentially operating like a Pr Shop for scandal ridden justices. They even made a website to what they call the liberal Supreme Court coup. And amazingly in the recordings that were obtained by propublica, the President And Ceo of first liberty says the quiet part out loud. He says first liberty is defending the court in public because the justices themselves cannot do so on their own. Here is Kelly Shackelford this time referencing a case where first liberty represented a group of Navy S. E. A. L. S who did not want to take the covid vaccine. It reminded me of the s. E. A. L. S. Whenhe the s. E. A. L. S know how T Fight but they canT Fight in court. T and when we came to them, they were so appreciative because we were doing something for them they couldnt do, and these judges are that same thing. They cant gome out in the political sphere and fight, and they know theyre trying to protect the existence of the court, and so its neat that, you know, those of you on the call are a part of protecting the future of our court, and they really appreciate it. Ia really appreciate it. That is the group Ginni Thomas is Thank Youing for its work. A thank you email, by The Way, she sent after she held a meeting with the first liberty staffer, a staffer for a group that is fighting for her husband, Clarence Thomas, in the court of public opinion. A staffer for a group that will undoubtedly continue to bring major law changing cases before her husband at the Supreme Court. And the fact that Ginni Thomas and a conservative Activist Group like first liberty are this cozy is a real problem both in theory and in practice. The Supreme Court is supposed to be ath neutral arbiter of the l, but the reality is that it is dominated byit incredibly conservative justices with clear ideological agendas that may, in fact, be significantly influenced by outside conservative activists. And today we got a powerful reminder of why that really, really matters right now. Today waste the first hearing i former president trumps federat Election Interference Case since the Supreme Court granted trump limited immunity more than two months ago. It was the first hearing in nearly 11 months because the whole thing got put on pause while the Supreme Court deliberate. And the Firsteme Order of Busi Today was for the prosecution ande the defense to present Thr Cases as to what can and cannot still be charged given trumps limited immunity. On that front Judge Chutkan was incredibly candid. Were hardly sprinting to a finish here, she said. We all know we all know whatever my ruling on immunity is its going to be appealed and that the taking of that appeal will again stay this case. Judge chutkan knows that whatever she decides, it will all End Being appealed very likely all The Way up to the Supreme Court, the court where Clarence Thomas sits. Now, The Other issue before the Court Today was the argument from trumps lawyers that the entire case should be thrown out on the premise that the appointment of the Special Counsel, Jack Smith, was unconstitutional. And to advance that argument trumps lawyers cited Who Else . Justice Clarence Thomas. Specifically they cited Thomas Note i guess is what well call it in his immunity opinion, which called into question the appointment of the Special Counsel. Heres trumps lawyer, john lauro. What imn saying is the court should consider this Issue And Justiceue thomas directed us to raise this issue and suggested that we do it immediately in light of his view in that concurrency. Judge chutkan, thomas directed you to do that . Heres trumps lawyer. Well, i shouldnt say that he absolutely thsaid, you know, do it, But When you read that opinion it is absolutely clear Thats Something we have to do now to preserve this issue. Joining me now former assistant u. S. Attorney for the Southern District Offo New York, and ankush, thank you both for being here tonight. Clarence thomas being cited directly in all of that, its very clear that trumps lawyers enjoyed his direction or at least paid attention to it. I want to talk a little bit about what unfolded in the courtroom today, tonia. Judge chutkan seemed incredibly resistant to the argument that handling this business before the election would be bad news. She says, quote, this court is not concerned with the electoral schedule. Trumpsdu lawyer were talki about Thela Presidency of the united states, and were entitled Judge Chutkan im not talking about the presidency of the united states. Im talking about a fourcount criminal indictment. Bam. Whatd you think of that . Bam. It is she is resetting and making clear to of course the parties in the case and to the public that this case is just like any other case, and it will proceed according to the schedule that any other defendant would be entitled to or subject to. So that and she repeatedly said that. She made very clear i think john lauro, the Defense Counsel at somE Point said we shouldnt Rush To Judgment here and chuckled and said, no, you know, this has been were Notno Rushing into anything. No, this r has been over a year, and its been tied up in litigation in superior courts. So i think she just made clear that were going to do things The Way we ordinarily do and despite the not i guess Direction But Invitation by Clarence Thomas. So she sat a pretty tight schedule as the proceedings were over. As much as she said shes not driven by the election and the case is not driven by the electoral calender, the briefing on the Immunity Issue will be completed by the election. Andhe thats The Way it should for any case. Its the happenstance of the calender, not of the campaign or the election. Lets look at the calender for a second. The Immunity Arguments of the calender there is september 10th, turn over all required evidence. September 26th, which if youre following along at home, that is a day to mark on your calender. Thats the deadline for the Special Counsel to submit their opening brief. October 17th is when Trumps Team can respond to the Special Counsels filing. And October 29th is the deadline for the Special Counsel to file its reply. I need not remind us Election Day is november 5th. October 29th is the conclusion of what we expect to be an intense Back And Forth between these two teams. How much do you think were going to see publicly of the informationli thats presented . Well, look, that is the big question, and youre exactly right toyo instruct people to circle the date on their calender. I d literally did that on my phe this afternoon. Did you circle it on your phone . Im sorry, gon ahead. Digitally. Excuse me, not literally but figuratively. The government is prepared to submit evidence to the Court Including Pled and unfed facts, meaning facts not u alleged in the indictment, and that submission could come in the form of Grand Jury transcripts, interview transcripts, and documents from discovery. The big caveat is whether or not the government decides or believes it is appropriate to put some or even most of that information under seal, which is something the government, in fact, alluded to today. Now, that process itself could get messy. I imagine Media Organizations would fight that effort. Judge chutkan may not go along with utit, but she may very wel agree. Ordinarily material is not supposed to be kept out of public dockets except in narrow circumstances, issuesar that mit indicate potential harm to witnesses or prejudice to an ongoing investigation. But its pretty clear to me from reading the transcript this afternoon that the government is actuallyhe treading kind of lightly here and even though not explicitly is at least implicitlyic trying to be a lite cautious heading into Election Day, so im hopeful well see a lot ofho new information, But W really wont know until we get closer potentially on September 26th itself. Do you read anything into Chutkans Refusal to proceed with the realities of the day to say there are rare exceptions to keeping this under seal, so i am going to make this Information Public . I do. I think at every turn she has signaled that she is not giving special dispensations to this criminal defendant. And so if she deems after she receives the briefings that it is necessary or important for this informationry to be made public, and thats assuming as ankush said that the government tries to seal it, it is ultimately her decision, she will decide whether or not it should be sealed and whether shes going to have an evidentiary hearing. Its usually in her discretion. Even though its days before the election. And theres another piece of this which is whether or not Clarence Thomas sorry Special Counsel Jack Smith should be taken off this case entirely. The calender for sort of resolvingof this Dispute Octobe 24th Trumps Team submits the motion to dismiss the case. Halloween, the Special Counsel replies. Tth, which is two days after the election. Lord knows whats going to be happening on that front is the deadline for Trumps Team to reply. Judge chutkan did not seem to favor the notion special Counsel Smith Wasci unconstitutionalall appointed. I think she said she did not find judge cannons call on this topic in maralago not particularly persuasive. It is unusual to have a judge v. Judge situation playing out in public view . Playing out at a high level, yes. Its not that unusual for District Court judges to disagree onou issues. In this particular issue its unusual because judge Cannons Order was a real outlier. There is controlling d. C. Circuit Court Opinion that binds her. Even if she wanted to agree with Aileen Cannon and said it was unpersuasive, she couldnt because she is bound by the d. C. Circuits ruling. After we go through some years long process, justice thomas seems inclined to agree with that argument, but for now i dont expect Judge Chutkan to give it much credence. He summoned the specter of Clarence Thomased so i have to ask. Judge chutkan seems remarkably resigned to the appellate process here that any decision she makes is going to be appealed. Thats how trump does it. Is this all dust to land in the lap of the Supreme Court . Yes, it will. Its a question of how long and, you know, once the election is over, i mean i guess thats the only if, right . If trump should win a second term then all bets are off and perhaps the whole case will be dismissed, and then in that event it likely wont be appealed. But, you know, i think Judge Chutkan very squarely sees the issue for what it is and has already said, look, shes not setting a Trial Date now because she understands that it will go up the circuit again into the Supreme Court, andin so whats E Point of putting dates on theres no Trial Date ankush doesnt have to circle that date on his calender. He literally said years potentially until this trial begins. It literally t feels its the beginning of a Face Off between a District Court judge, Judge Chutkan, and the conservative bent of the Supreme Court. Well see what happens there. Thank you guys for making the time and giving us the scoop. Coming up the Trumpvance Solution to combat the skyrocketing cost of Child Care is to call grandma. But first the president ial debate does not take place until next week, but Donald Trump is already claiming its being rigged against him. Were going to have trumps prebuttal to his Debate Performance and why d he might doing that right after this break. Nce and why he might be doing that right after this break. Safe steps best offer, just got better now, when you purchase your brand new Safe Step walkin tub, youll receive a free Shower Package. Yes, a free Shower Package and if you call today, youll also receive 15 off your entire order. Now you can enjoy the best of both worlds the therapeutic benefits of a warm, soothing bath that can help increase mobility, relieve pain, boost energy, and even improve sleep or, if you prefer, you can take a refreshing shower. Allinone Product Call now to receive a free Shower Package Plus 15 off your brand new Safe Step walkin tub. Why choose a mobile network built for places youll probably never be. Instead of for where you are most of the time . Xfinity mobile was designed for where you need it most. Now Xfinity Internet customers can buy one line of unlimited and get one free for a year. Kamala harris and Donald Trump have never met facetoface, and in only five days that will change. Next Tuesday Harris is trump will be on the president ial Debate Stage together in philadelphia. Yesterday Abc News released the official rules for that event, which both campaigns agreed upon. And despite that, trump is insisting that abc has somehow rigged the debate. Which would seem to be trumps version of a prebuttal just in case he flames out. Abc is the worst network in terms of fairness. They are the most dishonest network. The meanest, the nastiest, but thats what was i was presented with. I was presented with abc. Her Best Friend is the head of the network. Her husbands Best Friend is married to the head of the network. And theyre going to get the questions. Ive already heard theyre going to get the questions in advance. Joining me now is charlie sykes, cofounder of the Bulwark And Msnbc contributor and columnist. Charlie, we all know donald Trump Isnt like legacy media, media as an institution. But i sort of weird more into this prebuttal on the debate is rigged. Do you have a Working Theory why hes doing this right now . Its very much Donald Trump. Its on brand. He walks in and turns the board over before you even begin the game. He is trying as you said its a prebuttal. Hes playing the previctim card and all of this whining is designed to make him an object of sympathy for his base. Hes challenging abc. I said youre going to do all these terrible things, ive told lies about you, now you need to bend over backwards to be nice to me. Again, this is Donald Trump. This is someone not a mystery, not a secret, not a riddle or enigma. Hes going to go in there and do everything possible to derail this debate. We can talk about the substance of it, but i think anyone expects this is going to be a reprise oflengthen, douglas has not been paying attention over the last ten years. I was going to say, charlie, our standards have been significantly low