called me up three or four times. >> oops. for the first time, donald trump lets slip that he actually lost the 2020 election to joe biden. the journalist who extracted that confession joins me in a moment with even more never before heard clips that will make you wonder what's going on with this guy's mentals. >> also tonight, trump's getting exactly what he needs from his allies on the supreme court, who continue to drag out their decision on presidential immunity. plus, louisiana's governor forces the ten commandments into public school classrooms. when his state has far more pressing concerns. like its extremely low education rankings. but we begin tonight a week out from the first and historically the earliest presidential debate between biden and trump, and how it will set the tone for the final months of the presidential campaign. over at "the new york times," trump whispering maggie haberman has new reporting on how trump is preparing or not to face president biden next week. cue the endless speculation of the media industry of trump's reported policy session, the lack of stands-ins and roll playing, who stands where, who has the last word or the last gaffe. there will be lots of talk about biden and trump making history in the first presidential debate between an incumbent and former president. but that's not the only historical tidbit to go in the books. i would argue that the most important piece of information leading up to this debate is that trump is an adjudicated criminal and sexual assaulter and he's running for president anyway. how is that a thing that's happening and being treated as if it's normal intrump is an actual felon, a convicted criminal is about to be debating on the presidential stage for the first time in americans history. and he's waving around a threat of pardoning other criminals, namely the hundreds of violent criminals districted in connection with the attack he inspired on the u.s. capitol where about 140 police officers were injured as insurrectionists brandished firearms, stun guns, bear spray, axes, hatchets, and even a massive trump sign. these people were waving the confederate flag and bludgeoning people with poles carrying the american flag upside down or rightside up. so given that context, who really cares what his debate prep is? especially given that donald trump doesn't really prep for anything or so he says, because remember, trump's public image is what matters to him the most. but there is also an inconvenient truth interfering with that image. not only is trump a criminal, as determined by a jury, he's also someone who is arguably in mental and perhaps cognitive decline. it's pretty clear if you just listen to the man. >> under our leadership, the forgotten man and woman will be forgotten no longer. and it wasn't forgotten man and woman, four years ago was not forgotten. >> i hope the mill -- i hope the military revolts at the voting booth. >> by the way, a lot of shark attacks lately. you notice that? i watched some guys justifying it today. well, they weren't really that angry. they bit off the leg because of the fact they were not hungry but they misunderstood who she was. >> water starts flooding and i'm getting concerned, but then i look ten yards to my left and there's a shark over there. >> he's teleprompters are just gonzo, folks. >> it does seriously beg the question, is this man okay? the latest look behind the curtain of trump's mental decline comes from the new book, apprentice in wonderland, how donald trump and mark burnett took america through the looking glass. author and variety coedter in chief, who interviewed trump a half dozen times in writing this book, provides the receipts. here's exclusive audio from one of the interviews where they spoke about the late comedian joan rivers and her appearance on the celebrity apprentice. >> joan said she was a republican. did you know that? >> i thought she might have been a republican. i know one thing. she voted for me according to what she said. >> okay, well, there's just one minor problem with that. joan rivers died two years before the 2016 election. a little too early for early voting. and just as they were talking about rivers, trump seemed to claim he had to wrap up their discussion because he had pressing matters dealing with afghanistan, as if he still had some foreign policy powers after leaving the white house. >> the reason i'm doing this and devoting a lot of time to it, i have to get up because i'm doing the whole thing with afghanistan. has he blown that afghanistan -- >> ramin joins me now. congratulations on the book. let me ask you just a couple leading-in questions. had you interviewed donald trump before 2021? this is after he left the presidency. had you interviewed him before? >> thank you for having me on, joy. i have interviewed him before. in fact, this book started because when i was a young reporter at newsweek in 2004, i was in my early 20s. starting to cover different beats as a journalist. one of the things i started to cover in newsweek was tae tae, and as a young journalist, i always had such great access to donald trump because what he loved more than anything else was talking to reporters. he didn't have a publicist, he didn't have anyone handling his press inquiries. as a young reporter, that was great to have such direct access to someone i was covering, the star of a reality show was very helpful. i could always get him on the phone and get an interview with him. >> that is good information to have, because you then are in a good position to tell us how he's changed in the time that you used to interview him when he was on "the apprentice" and when you interviewed him for your book, these more recent encounters. >> it was always interesting during his first term as president because i wondered that. i wondered has the presidency changed him. has he evolved? is he more reflective about what's happening in the world? and the truth of the matter is the donald trump i sat down with for six times after he left the white house is the same man that was playing a reality star on "the apprentice." he's not changed at all. he loves to talk, he loves to hear himself talk, and he loves to be at the center of the spotlight. >> i have seen a couple of your other interviews, you talked to chris hayes and nicolle wallace yesterday and today. one of the things that was striking to me, i want to go two directions. you talked utthat, that point. he still lives in "the apprentice." that's still where his mind goes. and i ask you that because those of us who have season citizens in our lives, older folks who are starting to lose a little cognitive capacity, and i have some of those in my life. one of the things you do notice is they go where their mind goes is to a place where they're comfortable, when they can't remember their words and when they can't remember other things that they want to recall but they can't. it's easy to kind of go right to where you're comfortable. do you sense that he is sort of mentally stuck in "the apprentice"? >> absolutely. he is still living in a world in which he is the star of "the apprentice." there were times when he would talk about the show where it almost felt like he was talking in the present tense. he actually was talking in the present tense, as if he was going to go back and do another season, as if he was still playing the character. what was interesting is that his memory of "the apprentice" was much clearer than his memory of what he did in the white house. he stumbled with the chronology of recent events. he stumbled in terms of what happened in terms of our interviews. when we spoke back to back to back, he couldn't remember talking to me between our first and second conversations. his short term memory was very foggy and he had issues remembering things. >> what does he think of the presidency? you tell a story about him having still framed ratings from "the apprentice," both in mar-a-lago and in his other properties. that's the thing he seems most proud of. did he ever talk about anything about being commander in chief, about being president, about being the leader of the military, the leader of the free world, anything like that? >> we had a variety of discussions, and he referenced the presidency often and frequently, but he never spoke specifically about his accomplishments other than saying things like he helped create the vaccine. he helped save lives. but he was not interested in talking about what he did in terms of legislative accomplishments. he was not interested in talking about governing. he was interested in the fact that when he was in the white house, one story he told me is when he was in the white house, he saw someone on tv, and he called the white house switchboard and asked the operator to patch them through to that person. they were able to do that immediately. he thought that was really, really cool, the fact he could get someone on the phone quickly as president of the united states of america. >> the clip you played was of him thinking joan rivers voted for him and she was quite dead. he made it sound like he ran for president against barack obama. he seems to be stuck on barack obama. barack obama seems to live front-free in his head. do you get a sense of why that is? there are other reports, not your reporting, that he haas dropped the n-word. there's somebody who worked on "the apprentice" who said that. did he seem motivated by racial animus? what seemed to motivate him? >> i think that he has always been someone starting with the birtherism claims, he has always been someone who stoked issues with barack obama and it's no secret he thinks about barack obama frequently. he told me in my book, what was interesting is that he talked about how he really wished he had run in 2012, and he thinks that in 2012 if he had run for the office of the president, he would have defeated barack obama. he told me he thought it would be easier to defeat obama in his second term than it was to defeat hillary clinton. he made it seem like hillary clinton was a stronger contender in obama would have been in 2012. you get new insights into his resentment of the obamas. the obamas were cool, widely loved, like movie star presidents. that's something donald trump really aspires to and wants to have the american public really love him and appreciate him and feel beloved from everyone across the country. >> and that is the second place i wanted to go. he seems to be an incredibly needy person. aperson who needs celebrity, who needs fame, he's envious of barack obama having it. let me play another clip from you. this is donald trump talking to you about omarosa, who was the star villain of the first "apprentice." >> she was a great television personality the first time. and then i put her on her second time, and she bombed. she wasn't the same. i put her on the third time, she bombed. then i helped her get a job in the white house. because she was begging me for, you know, to help restore her. i do things, a lot of things, the things i do in life i do as an environment. i do out of human interest. just to see who's loyal, who's not loyal. she was actually great to me until she left, and then after she left, she got a deal, some kind of a deal, and she made some money. and she changed. she could do that too, they could all do that. >> did you get the sense he cast her in his white house because he was thinking of it as a reality show, not because he thought she had some foreign policy experience, not foreign policy, but policy? >> absolutely. he wants the ratings. he associated omarosa with ratings. she was the most popular contestant in season one. she was a villain on tv. people liked her. they liked rooting against her. he brought her back for two more seasons of the celebrity apprentice, then he brought her back again into his white house. it's all a continuation for him. his white house runs are a continuation of him peag on a reality tv show. >> you said he even refers to it as seasons. let's play one more. this is his views of dennis rodman and what he wishes he had done with dennis rodman. this is also from your interviews. >> kim jong-un really liked him. legit. and i said, you know, i can get these guys out of harvard government. and central casting. they couldn't do anything with kim jong-un. a guy like dennis could. i didn't use dennis for it, but i thought about it a couple times before i got it know kim jong-un. but dennis would have done a better job than your traditional people. kim jong-un liked him. he coached a basketball team. and he did. i asked him about that. he said i like dennis. >> asked him? >> yeah, i asked him. he liked him. and by the way, dennis liked him, too. >> you wrote, this appeared in a "new york times" article, in many ways donald trump when it comes to his running mate is casting not so much a vice president -- he's casting it, a co-star. in many ways he runs for president as extensions of his reality show. what do you think a second term donald trump would be like? >> he told me that he resented the fact that people would not allow donald to be donald. i think a second term, donald trump presidency, would be donald trump calling all the shots and embracing the reality tv side of what he does, embracing his showmanship, what he thinks he is as an entertainer even more. i think he will not compromise. i think he will not listen to advisers. i think he will be full fledged reality star mode and the american public will need to brace for that. >> very quickly, do you think he's dangerous? >> in our conversations together, he was very charming. he was charismatic. he enjoyed the attention. in terms of being dangerous, the voters need to determine that based on what they have seen and based on his policies from his first term. >> do you think he would surround himself with people we should be concerned about because he thinks it's a show. >> he won't surround himself with people who know how to engage in policy. we know that already. he surrounds himself with yes men and yes women and people who make him feel like he's in charge. >> excellent reporting. come back any time, especially if you have more tapes. we appreciate you, and well done and congratulations on the book. >> thank you. coming up next on "the reidout," one of the most dangerous aspects of a trump presidency is his wanton disregard for the rule of law which could be even more emboldened once the supreme court rules on immunity. we'll talk to a man who was attacked on january 6th about trump's pledge to pardon violent insurrectionists. 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