In georgia today. More on that in a moment. But tonight, there is a new report about arguably the person closest to donald trump and the months following the 2020 election, leading up to january 6th. His last chief of staff, mark meadows. Abc news is now reporting that Special Counsel jack smith has granted mark meadows immunity for his under oath testimony. Sources familiar with that matter tell abc news that mark meadows has spoken to jack smiths team three times this year, including to the federal grand jury. Abc news reports, quote, meadows informed smiths team that he repeatedly told trump in the weeks after the 2020 president ial election that the allegations of significant voter fraud commit to them were baseless. Meadows also told the federal investigators trump was being, quote, dishonest with the public when he first claimed to have won the election only hours after polls closed on november 3rd, 2020, before a final result for. And obviously he didnt, when a source quoted meadows as telling smiths team in hindsight. Jack smiths team was keenly interested in election related conversations mark meadows had with donald trump, according to abc news. Conversations that could show donald trump knew he lost the election, while publicly spreading lies about voter fraud. Abc news reports that after the Supreme Court denied his final court challenge, quote, trump told meadows something to the effect of, then that the end, or, so thats it, meadows recalled to investigators, according to sources. Nbc news has not confirmed this reporting. Mark meadows attorney issued a statement tonight saying, quote, i told abc that their story was largely an accurate. People will have to judge for themselves the decision to run it anyway. And more cameras are falling and the Georgia Election case, where Fulton County district when it found it while it secured her fourth guilty plea that could prove very significant given her direct ties to Rudy Giuliani and donald trump. Jenna ellis the came the third this week who pushed Donald Trumps false election lies to plead guilty in as part of a deal with prosecutors for testimony against other codefendants, including donald trump. Jenna ellis cried during her Court Appearance at Fulton County, but first she pleaded guilty. Is it your decision to waive these rights because you are in fact guilty . It is. How do you plead to Aiding And Abetting, false statements and writings, and under accusation . Guilty. Jenna ellis pled guilty to a felony count for spreading false claims about voter fraud in the 2020 election. Something she did as part of a lot donald trump called his Elite Strikeforce with Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell. She worked closely alongside Rudy Giuliani to persuade legislators and States Joe Biden won, including georgia, pennsylvania, and arizona that there was significant voter fraud and to appoint fake electors to contest the election in congress. She also wrote to memories for donald trump that outlined the strategy for how former Vice President mike pence could disrupt congresss certification of the election, using the fake electors, stating, according to the indictment, quote, the Vice President should therefore not open any of the votes from six states, including georgia, that roughly characterized as Heaven Electoral Delegates in dispute. Today, jenna ellis did something unusual in trump world, through tears. She expressed remorse and took responsibility for having sprayed Donald Trumps lies in court. And attempting to raise challenges to the election in several states, including georgia, i failed to do my due diligence. I believe in and i value election integrity. If i knew, that what you, know i would have declined to represent donald trump in these post election challenges. I look back on this whole experience with deep remorse. I have taken responsibility already before the colorado borough, who censorate me, and i now take responsibility before this court and apologized for the people of georgia. Leading off our discussion tonight, Amy Lee Copeland a criminal defense attorney and former georgia peripheral, prosecutor barbara mcquade, former u. S. Attorney and a Law Professor at the university of michigan law school. She is cohost of the hashtag sisters in law podcast. And neal katyal, former acting solicitor general of the United States, and a professor at georgetown law. He is host of the Podcast Courtside with neal katyal. Yall, i am so glad to talk to all three of you tonight, neal, im instructed with you. What would it mean if mark meadows received immunity from jack smith . It would mean a lot. First of all, just to set the stage, there is two different January 6th Prosecutions. One in the states, georgia, and one at the federal level, with the state, thats the one where jenna ellis has now fled to the cooperator with Sidney Powell and Kenneth Chesebro, but the federal, mark meadows, for chief of staff to donald trump, we has according to abc, gone to a grand jury and testified under some sort of minted Immunity Deal. We might want to take this a little bit with a grain of salt salt, because it is, it butler for mcmanus is disputing and for not notably explaining what hes disputing in the recording. Hes just disputing. It and i think atlanta region that mark meadows probably told a grand jury something significant for the prosecution. Because its really obvious that donald trump lost the election. We think its pretty obvious that he, himself, knew so. Trump wasnt, i think, trying to claim hes insane or Something Like that, which is i think what youd need to pay to see otherwise. And meadows had a Front Row Seat to all of this. And you dont give an Immunity Deal to someone as high up as meters on a whim. So that tells me that mark meadows has a bit more dirt on donald trump that he chose to shear in his book, which it looks like, according to the abc story, hes now contradicting what he, himself, wrote in his book. I think the bottom line is, we dont know what the reach of this Immunity Arrangement is, how much whether meadows has really pledged. But even if he hasnt flipped, yet he might will flip in the future because meadows is a defendant who knows donald trump well, and you know the situation reversed, and you know trump, well trump would flip on him and a second if he. Could let me follow up with you, one real quick. Is it just about Donald TrumpsState Of Mind . Is that the import of what were learning here, if the ap recording is true . Its at least part of it. Because one of trumps big defenses of both January 6th Prosecutions is, hey, i reasonably thought i won the election, and all of these actions were calculated to try to protect democracy. You and i know how likely that is as a plausible explanation, its not. But in criminal law, there is something called youve got the eagles that of mind. For meadows to say this, if that abc reporting is, obliterate Donald TrumpsState Of Mind event. And it could also go further. It may just go to what we call the criminal acts that donald trump undertook. So meadows was in the room. Did he see trump ordering various things, including seizing voting machines, or all the other nonsense . But meadows is in the room, hes obviously the most important, and i think the prosecutors are right to bring him in before the grand jury and try to get what he knows. So, amy lee, what couldve potential meadows Immunity Deal in the federal case mean for his indictment in the georgia case . Possibly not much, jonathan. Fani willis has made a real point of saying that she hasnt been coordinating with jack smith. That, in fact, if she were to meet with jack smith he would probably pronounce her name wrong, which is kind of the litmus test. So if Meadows Crosses to an out and out communicator, maybe jack smith picks up the phone and see is treat him right in the state case. But it may not have any real effect on how that case continues to go for. He does have an argument, in his appeal on that removal to Federal Court coming up on december 15th. I expect pretty fast action on that, and that might make him make some decisions in the state case, if that doesnt pan out the way hed like to. Decisions and the state case, maybe like that same decisions that jenna ellis and Kenneth Chesebro and, who is the kraken lady . Sidney powell that kind of decision. Those kinds of decisions, indigenous and. Just clarifying and my own mind. Barbara, i want you to listen to something Cassidy Hutchinson said about mark meadows tonight. Mark was sort of all over the board in some ways. He would privately vent to me sometimes that the election, that we had lost the election, or hit privately event to me that trump had said we had lost the election. Mark also was a key player in working in characters like Sydney Powell and like jenna ellis. He would sometimes acknowledge what ive read in the abc report. So then, barb, does meadows pose a credibility issue, Credibility Problem for prosecutors . Yes, and that is often the case with cooperators. But prosecutors are accustomed to dealing with that. They really want to do two things. First is to satisfy themselves that the witness is telling the truth, cant sponsor untruthful testimony. Thats a threshold issue. Once theyre satisfied, that second test is to persuade the jury there telling the truth. The way they do that is typically not to rely solely on the wards out of a mouth of a witness, because they know hes susceptible to crossexamination with prior inconsistent statements and receiving a benefit, and other things. So well try to do is cooperate the testimony. To find documents, records, and the testimony of other witnesses. So perhaps Cassidy Hutchinson or Somebody Else who controlled about the times they were consistent to help the jury understand what the true facts are. And so, he wont stand alone. But as neil said, because he was so close to donald trump, i think he can provide some real color here at that can be valuable. Sometimes the person connect the dots, sometimes that person just serves as a narrator to help explain what all these records mean. But this year openly wont let him stand alone and ask the jury to believe him without corroborating evidence and testimony. Neal, lets talk about jenna ellis. She worked closely with Rudy Giuliani on the statelevel efforts, which he has also direct contact with trump. How important is her testimony . I think its quite important. Jenna ellis was smiling and her mugshot a while ago, but she certainly not smiling anymore. And for good reason. This agreement, plea of guilty today, but quarrels her to basically testify against Rudy Giuliani for Aiding And Abetting election crimes. And, i suspect, it will generate evidence against donald trump, because mark meadows like, jenna ellis was often in the room when it happened with donald trump, and she had direct dealings with him. Trump cant distance himself, as i never hired jenna ellis, thats going nowhere, it just as when he tried it for Sidney Powell. And jonathan, the most significant thing for me is i think were just Getting Started with these four defendants have flipped. I think its going to look like at Gymnastics Team all of the flippant were going to see in the coming months. All of these different attorneys involved, decided to play out. Even though they dont flip the law from south, and i certainly understand that legal system to know its not worth taking a chance at trial, and i think others will follow. A mainly, jenna ellis blamed other lawyers for the election lies. Listen to this. I rely on others, including lawrence with many more years of experience with high to provide me with true information, especially since might roll involved speaking to the media and legislators and various states. What i did not do, but should have done, was to michelin affects the other lawyers alleged to be true or in fact true. Amy lee, what is Rudy Giulianis defense team going to make of that . Hes going to say, like neal say, this is an opportunistic play for her. Shes trying to save her part license, trying to get her own self out of a ditch. But you know, one of the things i think its really interesting about her particular plea is that she wasnt even charged with the indictment she pleaded guilty to. Her accusation presents a combination of count three and four, which four against Rudy Giuliani and a Trump Campaign lawyer. And when she admitted to Aiding And Abetting the full statement, she admitted to the velocity of pretty important statements thea bec under age people vote pay vot them w help them with hearings. She agreedr anybody else who doesnt have a deal. So, barb, fani willis is winnowing down from prosecuting 19 defendants turn a 15 and has three trump lawyer is cooperating. How significant is this and getting others to flip to get to that top tier defendants . She really is following the prosecutors playbook here which is to charge the full scope of criminal activity, everyone involved, and then chip away at guilty pleas one and then the other. So often what you see is, one defendant played guilty, for example scott paul, and he was involved in that scheme in Coffee County that related to tampering with election equipment. Perhaps that is what induces Sydney Powell to plead guilty, because she was involved in that scheme. Now she knew, in addition to whatever evidence fani willis, she also had the cooperation of this witness. After all, thats what tips the scale for Kenneth Chesebro. Maybe thats what tipped the scales for jenna ellis. So you see, one by one, this happens. And every defendant has to be thinking, right, now while, not only is there if the evidence that wasnt sufficient for a grand jury to find probable cause now there are four others who are gonna be testifying against me. And so it really changes the calculus, i think, for each defendant. So one by one, shes working her way up the chain. Statistically, Something Like 95 of defendants Plguase Alwayt those statistics, but you would expect, in this case, by the time it gets winnowed down, it would be a very small group of defendants who actually go to trial. So neal, to put a point on all this, is the r. I. C. O. Case working exactly as intended . It is. Barbara is exactly right in my judgment. Use of conspiracy doctrine, in cases such as this, and its take spoke. You start flipping them, other people follow, thats exactly what fani willis is known for doing in other r. I. C. O. Cases chase brought, and shes performing marvelously so far. And if your donald trump or Rudy Giuliani or any of these people, i think you are shivering. This is very scary stuff. Neal katyal, barbara mcquade, Amy Lee Copeland, pink you very much for coming to the last word. And coming, Up Donald Trump dot to sit the new york courtroom today and listen to his former lawyer and fixer Michael Cohen accused him of lying about his wealth. 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