believe in 2005, and he also gave us information. so i think it's fair to say that it was a long road to getting bin laden. but the first major steps on that road resulted from the interrogation, very intense interrogation, of khalid sheikh mohammed and al libby. i do support it, and i'm only speaking for myself now when i say this, but i think it was the moral thing to do. i'm not defending it, i'm actually being very emphatic, being very proactive in supporting it. i use the example, piers, if on september 10th, 2001, we had captured mohammed atta, one of the other 19 conspirators, and we know somewhere in the next several days, 3,000 americans were going to be murdered. i would say the moral thing to do to hold his head under water to save those 3,000 people, do it. and i went to so many wakes and funerals after september 11th, i would never want to go to a wake and funeral and tell a mother or a father or a brother or a sister of someone who was burned to dead, who had to jump 96