Esthetic, maybe amendment hesic, maybe a better word would be snobbery. You can watch this and other programs online at booktv. Org. Welcome to lynchburg, virginia, on booktv. Located in the foothills of the blue Ridge Mountains along the james river, it has a population of about 80,000 people. Founded in 1757, lynchburg was named more its founder for its founder, john lynch. The city is home to poplar forest, Thomas Jeffersons private retreat. And with the help of our Comcast Cable partners, for the next 90 minutes well feature the citys Literary History beginning with poet ann spencer. Ann spencer was a poet, an american poet mostly associated with the harlem renaissance period in 19241945. How she becomes part of the harlem renaissance is how harlem comes to lynchburg. Unfortunately, theres a whole group of people who are associated with that period of time like ann spencer that people dont know about. Ann spencer was born in 1882 in henry county, virginia, which is southwestern virginia. Anne spencers interest in writing began as a child. Her first piece of poetry she said that she wrote at age 11. She said that she would pretend like she was writing even though she didnt know how to spell. You know, she would just pretend. And she would do that same thing as reading before she really learned how to read. She would take Sears Roebuck catalogs, and shed go out to the outhouse in west virginia, and she would just pretend like she was reading, you know . And then eventually she taught herself how to read and taught herself three languages. Edward and anne, they meet as tutors for each other. They become sweethearts and from that they become married in 1901. May 15, 1901. And then in between 1901 and 1903, they Start Construction on this house, 1313 peer street. I always say that anne spencer never lived in harlem, that harlem came to anne spencer. For example, w. E. B. Dubois comes here as a lecturer at the virginia seminary college. Thats how he gets to know anne spencer. James William Johnson comes as a field secretary. And then she just meets people, and very often i think that many of the people that shes associated with were from the south. Most of them were from the south and they now have migrated up north, and so as theyre traveling from the south to the north, then they would have to stop over somewhere. They couldnt stay in a hotel. And so the spencer home was not in the directory, but it was open to people that they were associated with. Thats how she meets Langston Hughes runs into zora neale hurston, shes working on a project, Langston Hughes is working on another project, and he took the train. Zora drove her car. She says, well, im going back up north, why dont we drive together . He says, i need to stop over in lynchburg. So he stops to get a ham, and she meets anne spencer, and anne spencer meets zora neale hurston. And then they go on to philadelphia. So there was so much during this period of time. It was, it really was a movement, a really new movement. So that was, i think, just a fun time to come relax, think, write, whatever was going on here. So youre now in the parlor at the anne spencer museum, and we have several things here in the parlor that are of interest. We have a letter here from w. E. B. Dubois dated 1934. And the interesting thing about this letter is that theres a story that my grandmother would tell, and she would say when he came to visit, he would always say that hes going to bring some smart woman. And shes usually a doctor or a hour. And so when i came across this letter in her papers at uva, it says, p. S. , if i come, ill bring an interesting guest. In parentheses, female and m. D. , to worship at the shrine. This room was added on in the 1920s, and it was added on i think during the period of time well, this was real heyday of the house. Not only are the spencers family growing, but theyre having more and more visitors that are coming through and staying over, visiting. And so my grandmothers chair is here, and my grandfathers chair is the red chair off to the other side. And once my grandmother got up in age and she wasnt able to sometimes get down into her garden which you can see out the rear window, she would do her writing here. One of the differences about this room and even the whole house museum with the collection being 98 original, all of the furnishings are pretty much in the same place. Theyre in the same place as they were even when im coming here to visit. But one of the differences was that its a little neater. As a writer, she had a lot of paper, she had a lot of books. She had over 1,000 books in her collection. And i remember that she had a little path that you would walk she would walk to her chair, and she had a tray, and she had books, and she had a little spot for her coffee, which she enjoyed. But it was paper and books everywhere. And when she was talking, she would be able to just kind of reach over and grab whatever it was that she wanted to refer to or show you. So now were going to go upstairs to the second floor, and this is the back staircase. This house has two staircases. This staircase was my grandmothers filing cabinet. So all the way from the top to the bottom on this side of the staircase were papers. And this is where everything would be filed. So you had this little narrow stairway to work your way up and down. And then here we have what i call the duvoy bathroom. Fun story about this bathroom, this facility is that w. E. B. Duboise comes to lecture in the virginia seminary, and they did not have indoor plumbing or electricity. So mr. Duboise is from massachusetts, you know, a new england man. And he was always, he was a very prominent and didnt know anything about outdoor plumbing. But the virginia seminary women are ready to prepare his evening, and they start filling up this copper tub in the middle of a field, and duboise comes, and hes very kind. He says, im sorry, he says, but i dont think that i can bathe out here in the field. And so they said, oh. They called over to the spencers, and pop answered the phone, and pop says, oh, send him on over. So duboise comes, and he washes up or bathes here in the duboise bathroom. So now were entering the bedroom. If you look over here to the wall which is the nearest to anne spencers bed, you have this wonderful piece of artwork. And its an oil and canvas, and its titled the cocktail party, and its done by dolly allen, and she was mary rice hayes allens daughter. Before it was here, anne spencer would wake up in the middle of the night, and she would write on the wall. She would write poetry, she would write anything that came to her mind. Things that she may want to plant in the garden, things she may want to get from the Grocery Store. So edward thought that the wall was getting a little bit out of hand, and so he was trying to discourage his wife from writing on the wall. And so my grandmother says, okay, thats fine, pop, ill take care of it. So somehow she gets with dolly allen, and they do this remarkable piece. My grandmother always says it was about having to go to a party and put on a phony smile. But the more that i look at this piece through the years that ive been working here in the museum, im beginning to identify people that are pictured in this piece. If you look down here in the righthand corner, that looks like james William Johnson to me and his wife, grace nell. And next to grace nell, these two women that are smiling at this handsome man, well, maybe thats duboise with his doctor or lawyer female visitor. And on the back the man there with the glass in his hand with the glasses could be sterling a. Brown and his wife daisy. So, you know, its one of the things about artwork or that we can look artwork that we can look and we can imagine, and we get Different Things out of pieces. Anne spencer said that she never wrote to become a published poet, she wrote because she enjoyed writing. And she never felt like she needed to do that in order to sustain herself or her income like many of the other writers were doing that as their profession. And she had a husband, edward, who built a marvelous home for her, provided for her, and she always considered the money that she made as a librarian as her mad money. And so she would spend that on anything that she wanted for herself. These are anne spencers original [inaudible] when the garden was restored by the Hillside Garden Club in 1983, this garden had changed from a full sun garden to a shade garden. You can see this big tree here which doesnt have leaves on it now, but has wonderful shade leaves in the summer. So they needed to bring the roses out to the sun, so they created a rose garden here. But all of these roses she planted inside the garden. And inside the garden, youll see a shrine here which says [inaudible] but really the whole garden is [inaudible] and its a madeup word. Its edward and annes combined together and part of the garden of eden. And its an african word that means corral or enclosure or place. But what youre looking at on the front is anne spencers writing studio that edward built for her around the 1920s. So this is anne spencers writing studio. And just like the house museum, its all original to the way that she had it, set up in the same place. So anne spencer uses this cottage as her place to have papers and her books and things that are just hers. Coming to this cottage was a mace for her to escape all of those things that were going on in her world and for her to come and just clear or her head clear her head e and be to herself and to write and sometimes take a break from writing and to go out into her garden. This cot here on the front wall of all these photographs, sometimes anne spencer would sleep on this cot. But all these photographs here are photographs of family and friends. And its how anne spencer liked keeping her photographs. She didnt like a lot of photographs inside the house. And i remember as a child every year we would come, we would bring our new school photograph, and we would get a thumb tack, and we would come, and we would push them into the wall and add the new photograph for the year. This is photographs of my grandmother. This is i i certainly remember her there. And my aunts. My grandparents had three children, bethel and elroy here in front of the fireplace and my father, chauncey. And from those three children, there were 11 grandchildren. And then my dad decided to do some cutouts of some of the last four, and so this is my sister kyle and joel and chauncey pictured there and me. I didnt know my grandmother was a poet. I just knew her as [inaudible] we grew up in california, so we were coming here usually to visit in the summers around the fourth of july, and that was always a fun time because we got to see our cousins who were also visiting here, other family members. But we would write to her, and we would write to her weekly. And she would write to us weekly. And we would share our homework with us, and she would write back to us. We would write to her in our letter, and the same letter would come back corrected with red marker correcting our spelling or whatever. And so then we would also talk with her on the phone every sunday, my dad would call her, and they would catch up. And so if we were around, we got to speak to dranny on the telephone. But it wasnt until i was in the eighth grade that i realized that my grandmother with was a poet. It really didnt probably quite understand even what that meant, but there was we were living in michigan at the time, and my teacher approached me and said i would like for you to read one of your grandmothers poems at the eighth grade graduation. I said, my grandmother . Okay. And so i went home, and i asked my father, i said, dad, is dranny a poet . And he says, yes. Anne spencer passed away in july of 1975. She was 95 years old. Living here all of her adult life. Many people never knew of anne spencers accomplishment. They knew her as librarian, they knew her as a garden, some people would call her a recluse because she enjoyed her privacy. But her legacy is more important to me and should be important nationally because its not known. And its not just her, her legacy or her part of history. This whole segment of africanAmerican History is not even in our history books. And so its important for us to know the whole story of our American History. Cspan is in lynchburg, virginia, to feature its literary community. Up next we speak with former astronaut and lynchburg native Leland Melvin on his book, chasing space. Firing chain is armed. Sound suppression water system activated. T minus 10, 9, 8, 7, 6 3, 2, 1, 0 and liftoff of Space Shuttle atlantis on mission to build, resupply and do research on the International Space station. 3, 2, 1, liftoff, eight and a half minutes later youre now in space, and the things that you dropped are floating around you. Youre still strapped in, and when the engines cut off, you know, because youre accelerating and then you stop, you feel like youre tumbling forward. I was, like, whats going on here, you know . Under the seat belt, pushed off my back, i floated over to the window to videotape the external tank falling back to the planet. And im doing my task, and this thing is falling, and were trying to see if theres any, you know, marks on it, anything had come off of it, you know, to be a witness plate for something had hit our vehicle and like what happened in the columbia accident. And i do this thing and im like, okay, done. And i see the caribbean. And the colors of the ocean are so dramatic and blue, almost need new definitions of blue to describe what im looking at. And then were going around the planet every 90 minutes. You see a sunrise and a sunset every 45 minutes. And im like, wow, this is space, you know . Laugh [laughter] you look at the darkness and blackness of space, back at the planet, and you see the sun, and its incredible. It changes you. It changed me. Fundamentally, it made me have a cognitive shift in the way that i think about humanity and how i think about the planet and saving it and working with people that dont eat the same food or dont have the same hair dresser or whatever than you, but you want to come together and hug everybody and say, hey, were run race, the huey p. Long race. The human race. I was born and raised in lynchburg, virginia. And when i grew up, my, i remember my dad always telling me about how incredible arthur ashe was as a person, as an athlete, just as a great character and all these things. So i thought i want to be arthur ashe one day, and i started taking tennis lessons. City of lynchburg recreational tennis lessons. Started playing and getting better, and so arthur ashe trained five blocks down the street from where i was growing up. So i kept playing tennis, i played in high school, heritage high school. I was first seat at heritage, but then football got in the way. So i played basketball, tennis and football. And football was the thing that paid the bills. I got a scholarship to play at the university of richmond. Anding so when they said, hey, you can come for free and come here, i said, okay. I think my parents liked that a little bit more. So im a wide receiver at the university of richmond. My freshman year went 010, 38, but we got better, 85 and went to the playoffs. And the professional scouts started looking because i had really good stats, and we were transforming, you know, this team into a winning team for a change. And so i got drafted to play with the Detroit Lions in the 11th round in the 1986 college draft. And, you know, im this kid who never imagined playing football in college because i was a wide receiver on a running team in high school. So is i never had many balls thrown to me. So that was not something that i aspired to, you know, be an nfl football player. [laughter] so it was but, you know, im always up for a challenge and got drafted, went to training camp, pulls a hamstring in training camp, the second week in training camp, and that was kind of the i thought itd be the end of my football career, but the Dallas Cowboys picked me up for the next season. And so i went to the cowboys, but when there, i started graduate school at the university of virginia which is only an hour from lynchburg. And im thinking how am i going to go to graduate school and play football. But the professor said, well, well take care of that. So they videotaped the courses and mailed them to me in dallas. So by day im catching footballs for americas team, at night im watching videotaped courses. Hardest thing ive ever done in my life. One day i go out with danny white, im stretching, he wants to throw, and i said lets run a half speed out. And he says, okay. Tom landry walks on the field, i see this whole thing starting to go awithdrew, because awry, so he does an audible from a half speed 10 yard out to a run as fast and far as you can, and i injured my leg for the second time, and that was the end of my football career. But i went back to grad school, finished my masters and went to work for nasa. You know, when i was at uva, nasa was looking to recruit a lot more women and minorities to make the numbers, get the numbers up. And so i was recruited by a woman named rosa weber the who was the physicist who went to norfolk state. And i remember at a career fair at nasa she, you know, i look at the nasa booth, im like, im not working there, im going to dupont or dow, im getting paid. Because the government jobs not going to pay you that much money. She saw me, she said, whats your name . I said, Leland Melvin. She said, ive been looking for you. Shes like, youre going to work at nasa. Im like, no, im not. Were having this conversation, shes shutting the booth down, she says, well, come help me take my pamphlets to my car. Im like, who is this woman, you know . [laughter] we go to her car, and she says, you know, i want you to think about it. So i go down, i do an interview, i look around and i get a job offer from nasa by the time i get home. And i said to myself, you know, theyve got some really cool stuff, i can get my ph. D. There, all these Different Things. It was like a campus environment. My interview with joe hayman was incredible. He was a physicist. He said you can come here and just think and create and do what you feel will help civilization. Really . [laughter] so that was, that was a good, you know, just a good, positive interview. And i felt i could do some good things. My experience at nasa was pretty phenomenal. I remember the first time i realized that people didnt appreciate, you know, the education that i had from uva was when a technician, you know, i was going to get a model, get some stuff made by this white technician, and he said to me so whered you go to school. I said, university of virginia. He said, no, you went to virginia state, right . I said, no, you know, charlottesville, uva . He says, no, you went to the black school in petersburg, virginia state, as though i couldnt go to that state. And im like, whats up with this guy, you know . Thats why i sensed this, you know, form of racism a little bit, you know . Someone not expecting you to have achieved certain things. And i befriended Katherine Johnson when i was there from hidden figures. Katherine was always positive and always, no matter what the situation, you know, she would talk about how theres, you know, theres always a solution. You just have to work hard, you figure it out. And it was just this work ethic that she had, you know . She had retired when i got this, she retired in 86, i got there in 89. That was, that was a turning point for me because i joined this group of africanamerican scientists and engineers called the National Technical association, and i became the treasurer and worked with katherine and some of the other people that really showed me, you know, dorothy not dorr vaughn, but mary jackson was one of the members at the time. And i didnt know their stories at that time. And it wasnt until the movie came out that i really understood truly the advances that they made to nasa at the time, but i knew they were great people and smart and hard working. And that helped me also have a trajectory of being excellent and working hard. Even though i didnt know what they had done. I worked in the Nondestructive Evaluation Sciences Branch which means you take, you know, light or heat or some types of energy to make assessments on Aerospace Vehicles if theyre damaged or not. So if the wing of an airplane is damaged, how do you nondestructively or in a noncontacting way determine the state of damage so you dont have to break it apart to figure it out. And i did some work on the shuttle looking for detection of leaks in hydrogen for the tanks, the tank that i would eventually videotape as it was falling back to the earth. And so ways to actually speed up the process of cert feeing a vehicle certifying a vehicle to fly again after its come home. And i did that for a little while, and a friend of mine said youd be a great astronaut. And i looked at him, and im like, really . Me . The right stuff guy, you know . He said, yeah, nasas taking applications for, you know, astronauts. And i just threw the application away, and that same year a friend of mine, he applied to the astronaut corps, and he got in. And i said to myself if that knucklehead can get in, i can get in. [laughter] so the next selection i applied and i got in. For an astronaut they want to make sure that you can do a certain set of skills. So one of the things that were doing through building the International Space station, you do people to do space walks. And we really call them space walks, but theyre really space crawls because youre pulling yourself along the station. And to do that training, you have to be in an environment which we call the sea laboratory. Its a five million gallon pool. Its across from the michelin man and do tills bury dough and the pillsbury doughboy. We have a space station submerged, a Space Shuttle submerges, and we can simulate your floating in space in a pool. In this suit theres a little styrofoam block, costs about 2, that if youre the kind of person that needs to squeeze your nose to clear your ears, that is your lifeline. That allows you to do that. Well, they forgot to put mine in, and we went down about 20 feet, and i told the test director, greg simms, that my little pad wasnt in there. I said, ill try to keep going, but i didnt have an effective way to clear my ears. So at about 25 feet i told him to turn the volume up in the headset, and i heard nothing but static. They took me out of the pool, they took my helmet off. The Flight Surgeon who was on call that day started walking towards me, and when they got my helmet off, he came in and touched my right ear, there was blood streaming down the side of my face. I had gone completely deaf of from this accident, and they rushed me to the hospital, emergency surgery. The doctors didnt know what happened. And they told me that i would never fly in space. If you back up four days before that accident, i was here in lynchburg. My parents were having their 35th wedding anniversary. I was sitting in a car in front of the housing in downtown the holiday inn downtown waiting to go in, and my cousin and a friend of hers by the name of jeanette was in the car. And i didnt know jeanette, but jeanette said i have something to share with you. She said, somethings going to happen to you. No ones going to know why this happened. You will be healed of this, you will fly in space. And thisll be your testimony to the world. Im like, okay. And four days later im completely deaf. And i remember when i was in the hospital, another friend of moon, mary gordon mine, marry gordon, who was at my parents wedding Anniversary Service remembered what jeanette said, and she wrote a note and said remember what jeanette said. It gave me hope to get through this. I was depressed and sad, and the doctors are telling me im not going to fly, and im completely deaf. So my hearing slow hi comes back in slowly comes back in about three wreaks. My right three weeks. My right ear is good for the speaking frequencies, my left ears pretty much gone. And im trying to figure out what to do with my life as an astronaut, theyre not going to fly me. I end up going to washington, d. C. To work in education because they needed someone to be the astronaut for the educator astronaut program. So i fly to d. C. Actually, i moved to d. C. With my dog jake, and we were up there, and we start this program off, and then the columbia accident happens. We lose Space Shuttle columbia. And im there to console the parents. David brown, who was one of the mission specialists, his parents lived out in washington, virginia, which is about an hour and a half outside of d. C. So the night of the accident, february 1, 2003, i go to their home to console them. And im trying to figure out what im going to say to his mother and father who just lost their son. And his father said to me with tears in his eyes, he said, leland, my son is gone, there is nothing you can do to bring him back, but the biggest tragedy will be if we dont continue to fly in space to honor their legacy. And im not flying, im not medically qualified to fly. And so im having all this emotions, my friends are gone, im not flying, i cant honor their legacy, what am i going to do . And we go to the different Memorial Services around the country, and were flying, taking off and landing, and im clearing my ears like i used to do before the accident. And the chief of all the Flight Surgeons, hes watching me clear my ears, and so when its time to transition back to houston to figure out what my next step is going to be, he calls me in his office and says, leland, i believe in you. Heres your waiver to fly in space. I went back to houston with the waiver, and i think a year and a half or so later i get assigned to a flight. And, yeah. Atlantis, go with throttle up. Copy, go with throttle up. The throttle up call, joined on the flat deck by Flight Engineer randy and Leland Melvin, seated down on the mid deck are mike forman, kicking off their workweek with a monday commute to orbit. The dog photo. [laughter] i was told that you could bring your family in. When you get assigned to a mission, you can bring your family in to take a picture in your orange pumpkin suit with your family around you. And i was thinking, well, my family, you know, theyre fourlegged family, but theyre family. So i drove my dogs into nasa with a van with my neighbor holding them back in the back. I gunned the vehicle past the guard after i showed my badge, and i get to the photo lab, and i go up the back stairs and get them in there. We have 100 milkbones, put the orange suit on, i go sit down, and they start running towards me, and i tell the photographer, start shooting. And they both run up and just one, jakes licking my ear, and scouts looking like, hey, you know . And that became my photo. Thats how that happened. This is my new addition to the family. This is zoro. See the maas being, the black mask there. I picked him up recently from boston. Hes a red dog. Hes a row d. C. Ridgeback, you can see the ridge on his back. Hes very active. He wants kibbles and bits and things. But hes going to honor the legacy of jake and scout, my other two dogs, who passed away about four years ago. They were road warriors. They went on trips with me. I remember steinbecks travels with charlie, i read that book, so hes already made a long trip with me from boston, and hes, hes ready for some more adventures. I think we can do more to help inspire more kids to see themselves as scientists and engineers, especially underserved and underrepresented kids. Because if you think about the numbers of scientists and engineers that are being, you know, matriculating in china and india, were like probably fifth or sixth on the list. And when you think about, you know, economic development, you think about the future of your society, it comes from innovation and creativity. And a lot of thats in i call it s. T. E. A. N. , science, technology, engineering, the arts and mathematics. So the a is really important. And i think we, you know, as a country need to make sure that everyones has a table in helping create that technology and that brain trust. Or were going to falter. For those that are reading chasing space, i would like for you to know that, you know, this kid from a small town who never aspired to be an astronaut, who never aspired to do the things that he, ive done, you know, nfl, science, talk show host on a show, child genius, you know, i mean, who does that stuff. [laughter] its to let you know that with grit, determination and perseverance, you can really do anything. Point of honor is a federalstyle mansion built in 1086 by dr. George 1806, by dr. George cable, a friend of Thomas Jefferson and physician of patrick henry. Heit was here that we spoke with the author of a book about the enslaved cooks of virginia. I decided to write the book about enslaved cooks in virginia because i had a lot of questions about them. Im a scholar of slavery, africanAmerican History particularly in virginia, and i would visit the kitchen in plantation museums because it was usually the most interesting part of the landscape. And also i was a professional chef for ten years. So i found myself drawn to these spaces with these men, women and children had to cook. And i realized there were no answers to the questions i had about their lives and their contributions to american cuisine. My work and my book is focused mostly on 18th and 19th century Plantation Homes and the larger ones. So not the ones where the cook might have been the land rest or the man lawn dress or the nanny, but those who had an entire enslaved domestic staff that was run like a business. So those particular plantations typically had, of course, the master and slaver, the mistress, the wife, several children, so the cook would have to cook for all of them, and then, of course, its virginia. Is all of the culture of hospitality is waked into the lay baked into the labor of these cooks. Friends visited, neighbors would come by to eat. There was no social world outside of these Plantation Homes for most of the women that were living in these homes during this period. So all of their social life revolved around planning balls and parties and marrying their children off to the next wealthiest person down the road. And the cook had a very significant role in cooking all the food for this and making sure it was run perfectly, every dish on the table at the right time, executed with perfection. Enslave cooks were typically the second most valuable enslaved person on a plantation. Butlers were typically valued at a higher monetary value than enslaved cooks, and sometimes you see on a plantation the cook was the most valued person on the plantation. But they definitely switched back and forth. And from what i can tell, butlers only had a little tiny bit of a head on that, and a lot of that had to do as well with the enslaved cooks being predominantly women, although thats a little bit of a myth because there were plenty of enslaved men cooking in these kitchens throughout the entirety of slavery. There was a lot of pride that enslavers took in their cooks, and you see this back and forth from the mistresses talking about how grand their dinners going to be and how amazing the food was on a certain night. You even see references of the mistresses talking about how their enslaved cook might not be well enough to cook, so theyre going to reschedule a dinner. Little things like that also show the cooks role is very significant, because id have to argue, you know, what other enslaved person had the kind of power to influence the rescheduling of an event put on by white people. Enslaved cooks had to work 24 hours a day. We were always on call. And if you think about the culture of hospitality in the south, in virginia in particular for my work, you think about people that traveled sometimes weeks to get to someones plantation home to visit their family or friends, and whenever these people would arrive, they would be expected to have food. The hospitality tradition in the south is tethered completely to southern culture, and if you think about where all of the hospitality comes from, it comes from feeding and making sure whomever comes to your front door has food, water, shelter, bedding, anything they needed. So the e enslaved cooks were responsible for feeding anybody who walked in that front door whenever they walked into the front door and making meals for not only everyone in that household, but any of their guests as well. So enslaved cooks were trained in multiple ways. Some of them already knew how to cook. They might have been cooks in the field and knew that from their own training. You had them learning there their mothers, their grandmothers, you had them learning occasionally as well from cookbooks. Some of them were literate because it makes sense to teach your enslaved cook how to read, otherwise youre going to be reading recipes over and over again. And some of them created their own recipes, and some of them, like james hemings, were sent to paris to learn french cuisine by the best of the best. Youve got this sort of crosspollination in training, in cooking style n cooking enslavers that happened during this period that if you look at the ways in which we eat now as americans, a little bit of everything. And thats the essence of our cuisine now. So enslaved cooks had access to mobility in ways that other enslaved people didnt. Ing they were allowed to go to markets sometimes. For instance, here in lynchburg, if you were an enslaved cook on one of these plantations, you might be allowed to go down to market to get some food for the meal. If youre in williamsburg, youre going to be allowed to go down to market and get food and come back. They had the ability to leave the plantation on occasion to get ingredients and to sort of talk to other people and mingle in ways that you couldnt if you were a field slave. Or if you were somebody in the house. George washingtons chef, hercules and, of course, this was in philadelphia you know, he was living in a city that was, you know, had a vibrant free black community. And he was able to walk up and down the streets, you know, parade around. Theres this wonderful description of him walking down main street in philadelphia, and hes got silk stockings on and a velvet coat and a watch chain, and hes got a cane, and hes walking and hes got his hat cocked, and people are bowing to him because they respected him so much. And this was someone who was an enslaved cook for, of course, the president of the United States in a city that was both mixed with, or you know, free people and enslaved people. But he is able to then walk around, meet people, and i would argue that those travels that he made through town and the things that happened between his trips back and forth to mount vernon because George Washington found out that there was the gradual emancipation act in pennsylvania shortly after moving there which meant if you had enslaved people, if you owned enslaved people in pennsylvania, they would have to be free within six months. So every five months and some change George Washington would send his enslaved domestic staff, including chef hercules, down to touch virginia soil, and then back up again. So youve got someone like hurricaning lease and others that worked in that house meeting people every time theyre going back and forth from a slave state to a free state, every time theyre walking down main street to get their collards or butter from the market, their meeting people that i think eventually helped them become free. So enslaved cooks, you know, with all of the, quote, soft power, ill say, that they had within the plantation complex, they were still enslaved. They still had the threat of being burned by the mistress, theres horrible accounts of torture happening. Theres horrible accounts of some of the mistresses mistreating their enslaved cooks because they burned the biscuits or because dinner wasnt put on the exact way they wanted to. The threat of violence was always looming over them. The difference between that role and that of somebody whos working, say, as a butler or in the field is that they were able to push back. They were able to poison if they needed to. So there was this threat that was constantly looming over their enslavers that, you know, betsy might kill us tonight, so maybe we should pull back a little bit. And you see this kind of hysteria especially after the nat turner rebellion where in 1831 youve got 55plus white folks, slave owners killed in South Hampton county. When that happened, shock waves were sent across the south. And the people and the women in virginia that owned these enslaved people and that owned these plantations terrified that they were going to be poisoned and killed by their cooks and their enslaved laborers. Another interesting thing about the research that i found is that, you know, the president ial home, so the homes that would be doing a lot of entertaining of heads of state or people from other nations, you see a lot of Different Things happening. You have a landscape that then started to reflect sort of the uncomfort of owning slaves. So you see places like mount vernon, you see this at monticello, and you see this phenomenon at montpelier and the plantation on james river. You see the development and the creation of architectural masks, right . Thomas jefferson has his dumb waiter built into his fireplace in his dining room. You have literal dumbwaiters, tables being put up in place of if you think about it, you know, what is a dumbwaiter . Its someone whos not able to communicate. You have furniture or responding to ideas in shame about slavery, and they allowed the flexibility to either hide enslaved bodies or present enslaved bodies, depending on who was coming to visit your plantation that day. And its not as if, you know, someone from france thought somehow Thomas Jefferson didnt own any enslaved people, but its the fact that youre not going to show it off in a way. And it kept people out of the room, enslaved waiters out of the room to then not listen to conversations about the immorality of slavery and the laws being passed and the fact that there were free nations all over the world and that the United States of america was taking a little bit long to get around to abolishment. Theres a huge misunderstanding about enslaved cooks in this country, there just is. And, you know, the icon ogg to my, the images of aunt jeff mime ma, of uncle ben, are still on our grocery shelves, theyre there, right . On one happened, you know, people going into a Grocery Store will say, oh, look, its aunt jemima syrup, it must be good. Theres this sort of comfort and appetite for black servitude. There is and there always will be. But then on the other side of the coin, we have this complete absence of enslaved cooks as true, you know, contributors to american cuisine. So which is it, right . You cant have it both ways. And so is my work is trying to blend those things together, to make people realize that these were actual, real people. They contributed an immense amount of things to this culture through hundreds of years of enslavement. Cspan is in lynchburg, virginia, to feature its literary community. Up next we tour the city with lynchburg native duboise miller. I was born in lynchburg, born on [inaudible] it was considered the forgotten hill, and i lived on the forgotten street on the forgotten hill. This is mckinley street. There were six houses on this street. This is the house we lived in. This house has now been changed a lot. We only had four rooms in it and no Running Water. We had a faucet on the outside. Theres a white couple who lives here now, and they allowed me to come into this house when i was writing my book. I wanted to see what it looked like on the inside. And nick, and i forgot his wifes name, they said best of all possible worlds. I said the same thing when we lived here. My brother said this was the [inaudible] spent here at 10 mckinley street. Best years of my life. We knew that we were poor. I grew up in poverty. I knew i was poor, there was no doubt about that. We lived on mckinley on polk street, 76 polk street. We had Running Water inside, but we didnt have any electricity. And i would stand, sit on our front porch and look across to the street to the patricks house, and they had electricity because they had a light, a porch right. I said, well, we dont have a porch light. Why dont we have electricity . We just cant afford that yet. And my mother would tell me the story of how when she and her, my father got married, they only had 10 to their name, and they had to use that to fix the roof. I knew we were poor, but i just didnt want to be the poorest of the poor. We were down there. This is all part of my neighborhood. There were white people who lived in one of these houses finish some of these houses have been built since i moved away. I think the berries live here now. This house i dont remember, but i know kent and mike, they were two white children about my brothers age who was six years older than me. Once they got to about age 12, they couldnt play with black children anymore. And thats the way it went. For me, it was the same way. A little girl lived up the street. She was told not to play with me. It was segregated for the most part. But it was integrated in some parts because of [inaudible] whites lived on Federal Street. They live on this side of Federal Street and that side of Federal Street. And mr. Hayes, he was an evil man. He depended on us for husband business. He was a white Grocery Store owner. He depended on us for his business, but he treated us with a lot of disrespect. And my mother had to get in his face one time when he gave me a can of beans and she told him to put it in the bag. She told me, ask for a bag. He took the and said you dont need a bag. [inaudible] threw the can down and said take this bag, take this and go home. And my mother, when i told my mother what happened, she said, i told you to come back with a bag. She went up there and got him straight. And the next time i didnt have any problem with him. Pierce street is about a mile away from here, maybe a little more than a mile from here. It was within walking distance. Everything in lynchburg is within walking distance. You have a lot more professionals living on pierce streetment street. You had doctors, teachers, a recognized poet, or anne spencer, and we didnt have those kinds of people. We had a few teachers in the area, but peer pierce street was more prominent because you did have people of note in the city who were more, i guess, community active. Go ahead. More active in the community. And our neighborhood was known mostly for negative things like the black bottom. The black bottom is where a lot of Illicit Activity happened. When i was young, we used to pick dandelions and sell them to the bootlegers. Usually we stayed kind of confined to our neighborhood. I didnt know anybody on pierce street, but we walked all over the city, so we would go on pierce street, but i didnt know anything about anne spencer or chauncey spencer. I knew about dr. Johnson because he had a business up on 5th street. This is where most of the prominent, some of the prominent whites live, on this area. You can see there the difference on harrison and madison streets. And this is called garland hill. Sos this is garland hill. Im going to go down here and circle around. And how far are we from pierce street . Mckinley street. Mckinley street . Not that far. In fact, if you walk down this street, if you let me go down here. Ill show you where mckinley street. But you can see these houses, these are where the white folks live. I think nancy marion lives here. Shes one of my editors, book publisher, you might say. This is the area where a lot of the prominent whites live that we use to come to trick and treat, and if they didnt give us any candy, we pulled chairs off the porches. And mckinley street was all within about two blocks from here. Whites lived over here, the smileys lived here. And im going to stop right here. Here you could walk to mckinley street. You see the house over there . The first house you see, the white through the trees . Thats the mcdaniel house, and i lived on the other side of it. Thats mckinley street. So for people who are watching this, what do you want them to be sure to know about . As i said in the book, remembering tenbridge hill, it does have a history. It does have a history. And theres a lot of unwritten history because nobody documented it. And i wanted to have some documentation of the history of our community. Im standing on the campus of Liberty University where up next we speak with professor ron miller on his book, sellout. Ron miller, when you and i initially spoke on the phone to book this interview, you said to me that since moving to lynchburg the perspective that you had in the book had changed. Could you explain that. Well, i think it was a matter of location. When i wrote the book, i was on the outskirts of washington, d. C. , and i find that because of the proximity to the center of power, that that has an influence on your perspective, your view of things. And i was politically active at the time, so all of those things sort of made the book not only a memoir, an explanation of how someone could grow up in a family as i did, a family with very conservative values but very liberal political allegiances and then end up becoming politically conservative. It also became a perspective of how i viewed issues through that political lens. So coming into our Current Situation here at, in lynchburg at Liberty University, number one, its an academic perspective. Number two, since its a private christian institution, the theological perspective came into play as well. And i think a lot of the issues that i talked about in the book where i had Political Solutions i think are now looked to more spiritual solutions. Particularly since the community that ive dealt with here not just at Liberty University, but in lynchburg has really given me a different perspective, maybe even a little more empathy about issues and challenges that people are facing and what they need to do to overcome them. We talk about initially in the book what were some of the topics that you were tackling and why did you name the book the title that you gave it . [laughter] well, the title is probably the one very provocative thing that makes the book stand out. I called it sellout. Part of its because there tends to be a reaction on a part of some people when, as a black man, you say that you are a conservative or a black woman, for that matter. And some people react poorly to it, and those kinds of names come out. So i used to joke that when you say youre a conservative, you inherit names that your mother never gave you. And i just decided to own the name and use it as a way to start a conversation. Particularly about the phrase uncle tom. Which has come to mean one thing in modern discourse, but if you actually read the novel, it means something totally different. And, in fact, the author, Harriet Beecher stowe, intended for uncle tom to be a noble, christlike archetype. And so i just found it fascinating that its evolved into what it has. I said im going to reclaim it. And so is that was the purpose of using that, to get a few eyeballs on the cover and maybe go further than that. So you mentioned that there were what were some of the issues that you were talking about in the book, and what was your perspective on the wellbeing in d. C. , and then how did they change moving here . Okay. Well, like i said, the book is largely a memoir. Its talking about how i arrived personally at the temperament, the position, the ideas that i did. And i kind of give you stories and things that will kind of lead into each of those areas. But id rather talk about the areas that seem to be really troublesome when we talk about the black experience in america. I talk about education, i talk about the economic wellbeing of the black community, i talk about the Family Structure and all of those things and what my view was and what i thought the solutions were from a political perspective. What has changed mainly is that i acknowledge that because of my upbringing, a lot of the things that i experience are not the experiences of a lot of black people in these communities. I was raised in a military family, twoparent family. My parents are still married, celebrated their 58th wedding anniversary. Always was an integrated neighborhood, integrated schools, gated community. Live on an air base, theres a gate you have to get through, so there was always safety and security. So i grew up in a very protected environment. And i i think over time as my focus has become less political and more spiritual, i thought to myself, well, what would my life have been like if i had been born in west baltimore, maryland, to a single mother or in ferguson, missouri, or any one of these flashpoints that weve seen in the news . What if the only thing i ever saw every day was risk and threat . What if the only father figures i had were the teenagers down the street who gathered together as a gang somewhat if my gang . What if my time in school was spent just trying to survive, much heads learn anything . Much less learn anything. So i started to say i cant discount experiences that are not my own. Experiences are very personal. In fact, even in the book i say you may disagree with what i say, but these are my experiences. And i think that applies both ways. So from my perspective, i started saying, okay, while i still believe in the power of these solutions and i still believe in our moral agency, our ability to take charge and overcome the circumstances in which we find ourselves, i understand that thats not as easy to do when you start off at a deficit. And i also understand too that all of the laws and all of the Political Solutions in the world dont mean anything if theres not hard change, if theres not life change. And i even mention that in the book. It kind of concludes with that idea. But i feel like i didnt go far enough with it, and some things in writing that ive done since then ive really emphasized the idea of taking it out of the realm of the political. Because particularly in todays era where politics has become so fractious and were so polarized, i dont think its a place where solutions can be found particularly when youre talking about something as longstanding as the relationship between blacks and whites in america. And we have laws in the book ever sings the emancipation proclamation we have attempts to the constitution. Weve had guidelines executive orders you maim it. Yet, were still struggling with this. All of these years later. Really believe it is going to take a spiritual solution and from my perspective it is going to take spiritual community, Christian Community leading by example. I believe that church can do it. But they have been done a poor job of it to this point and i think that thats why i put all of my emphasis now a lot less on the state house or the white house and a lot more on the church house it politics has done one thing to harm discourse it has created concept of the other and whenever theres an other that other becomes enemy it is easy to december mean them. Did i humanize them to set them apart. Unless we start relating to the fact there is an inherent god likeness in all of a us that he didnt distinguish between me or anyone else when he put image of god in us it breaks down our ability to put people on the other side and to demonize them. Ill tell you an interesting story one of the stories that kind of lended itself to the change. There was an article about the gun laws in the state of illinois and the city of chicago. And this was the wake of the Supreme Court decision that ban on handgun this chicago was unconstitutional well state and city decided to make it as challenging as possible for anyone to get one so they instituted all of these rules and restrictions. And the outcome of these rules and restrictions was that people who lived in the suburbs could more easily get conceal carry permits than people who lived in the south side chicago who were looking for this tome protect themselves from crime and their neighborhoods. So im thinking to myself, you know, oh, this is a Second Amendment issue im going to publish this article about this and all of my conservative friends are going to be up in arms about these people who are trying to protect themselves and cant get access to what they need. But what i got was a lot of very very disappointing commentary from conservative friends about black people with criminal records not being able to get conceal carry permits or if didnt spend their money on iphone or sneakers make they would have money for permits im not saying everyone comment that side way but enough did to where it it was almost like a slap me in the face and i said to myself, wow. You know, i have defended this Political Community for whatever you want to call it. And i never expected that. And i dont want anyone to read into that but i think all conservatives are racist. I dont but that response surprised me because if it had been a White Working Class community i wondered if they want have responded the same way with those kinds of comments and stereotypes. So that made me step back and start to think okay maybe i need to reflect on where we are in america right now. As a nation, where these attitudes are because clearly theres some things out there that still havent changed. And so colleagues who responded that way, did you ever bring up to them how you were kind of taken aback by their response and what a did they say . The one withs that responded like i said they werent majority but enough of them that qrn me but sh is rug their shoulders it seems that if you if you show empathy to other whoever they consider other to be you become one of with them, and so i cant tell you how many times i push back and if you dont yield or you dont acknowledge that their point of view correct your credentials are taken away and you lose your card i have kind of learned to brush that off. Im learning social media waste with land when it comes to intellectual dialogue or any kind of civilized dialogue so can be again i talk about communication being there to inform. Inspire, and i try not to inflame but sometimes it is going to happen and i just accept it and i nervous, i never respond in kind and i just move on. So if you could say anything to the Current Congress going on right now, and in washington, d. C. What would your message be to them . Examining your heart in determine why you went there in the first place. And if your purpose was to serve, then serve and become others centered. If your purpose was otherwise then, consider whether or not you need to be there. Booktv is in lynchburg virginia top feature its literary community. Up next we learn about the World War Ii Program from professor brian creme. Operation paper clip sometimes called project paper clip was a intelligence scenario that was evolving at the end of world war ii where allies realized that germans had made major break throughs in Weapons Technology jet engine, submarine and rocket technology. So theres an understanding that ally armies swarmed across the third reich as collapsing. You wanted to at least detain those scientists and more importantly at that point they thought get the equipment and the rocketry in particular to study it and also keep it out of the hands of potential enemies of the future like the soviet union so first based on fear and idea that we needed to understand how or far theyve gone and what theyve done with weaponry and later became what can we do with these scientists and this material . So intelligence operatives conceive of ways to bring them back to the United States or possibly deal with them in country during an occupation. Paper clip was first an idea among intelligence professionals and also the American Scientific Community that was aware of how germany had progressed in Weapons Technology during the war. And there was an understanding that with the atom bomb and with the invention of long rage rockets that we have entered a new era in warfare. It wasnt quite yet the cold war where you were looking at the soviet union as this intense enemy in 1945. But no matter who is out there, this technology is changed the way warfare could be conducted and he needed to find an advantage against whatever possible enemy there would be. And that involved finding the best scientist and matching it with you know, Americas Industrial might. So if you could achieve a break through by using technology that is already available in germany, then this was deemed military necessity. And that seems to be the keyword for project paper clip is whatever falls under umbrella of military necessity and a later Term National security was born in 1945, then anything else is justified including bringing over 1500 exnazi to the United States. The reason it was called paper clip is whenever there was a file of a scientist that americans in particular were interested in, they would put a paper clip on one corner of the dossier and that would signal to whoever was looking at it that this person is important. First and most important thing is that this person is worth wild and secondly they told them dont look to deep into thiss record if theyre a nazi or have some other, you know criminal element to them because we need them. This is safely saying dont investigate this person too much. Which i think is the heart of why paper clip is controversial because so many of them will be brought over with those backgrounds. United states government, obviously, had made e from break throughs in the topic energy. But we were not flier as advance in our aeronautic as germans had seemed to be. The germans invented a fuelbased long rage rocket which did little to help them win the the war, in fact, it was simply just a terror weapon but that technology identified as something that is mass produced could be the the future of warfare. The germans had a reputation during the war of making what we might call boutique weapon things that were very intricate but not able to be mass produced in a way to affect outcome of the war what has the United States and brinl and a the soviet union focused on mass production of things that were needed it for the war airplanes, ships, and huge numbers which ultimately is what defeated nazi yerm so the ideas of Something Like paper clip is. How can we take this Boutique Technology that signal technological revolution and introduce it with the United States and thats why these german scientists were attractive to american intelligence professionals who thought theres a possibility to skip years of research and development simply by harness about what was already available in german. Project paper clip began as a military intelligence operation because it was a military service is that was wanted to hire or use the knowledge of the germans. But when the idea of using immigration as insen toif to bring german over to have them happily work for us once immigration became a topic then state department has to get involved and Justice Department and thats where the problems arise because it is the Sate Department and Justice Department that will oppose and no large part many elements of paper clip. Think about this, you know, if you have the director of the fbi and at the time its j. Edgar hoover, and you just spent most of the war fighting nazi spice on you know, arresting them and conducting very successful operations against nazis pee insided United States how u would you feel if you remember told to bring nazis into the United States to give them working on military bases . He was appalled initially and as was the fbi, field office and state department who was in charge of immigration. They it took truman to require bureaucracy to support this effort but even within the state department and Justice Department there will be voices that are opposed to paper clip and my book gets into many of those that oppose this operation from morality from moral reasons but also because of you know the danger it pose to the United States to have these combatants running around country with high per security clearances than most of their american counterparts had. So project paper clip brought in approximately 7, 800 scientists also their dependence and over the years it is kind of hard to nail down exact number because in some ways pairm clip wasnt called paper clip was still an operation until 1973 still bringing over you know german and west german scientists, but also theyre dependent so where they would go initially they went to places like new mexico, texas, right Patterson Air force base and ohio had are a huge number of them all over virginia. Boston, long island, i mean wherever there were existing military bases or secret quieter facilitying that were involved in experimental technology, you would have a community of germans popping up eventually you know the rocket team and most famous group of germans you brought over and brown team would wind up creating a whole community of german and in alabama to remain indefinitely. So with a very interesting phenomenon to have within four to five years after the end of the War Community of germans living in military towns and and influence culture of wherever they happen to be all over the midwest, the south, primarily project paper clip it not remain much of a secret given the numbers that were comes to the country and you know it is kind of hard to hard to miss german speaking scientists on military bases, so they the military realized that by early 19467 they would have had to tell the public and so they have a very carefully crafted press release that didnt go over too well because this basically compared nazi scientists to Albert Einstein for one albert sign infuriated that he was compared to them and wrote on sed to New York Times saying these are as he called them the carrier much naziism in our country. And he was a proud american citizen, at this point in 1946. So the attempt to normalize o this oles did not succeed. But it has to be said that the military guessed right think that most americans would probably be uncomfortable with the idea but would also soon forget it. So yes americans were against it. But how long would that resonate with the public and it didnt seem to be very long. So with project paper clip with these, number of germans that were brought over the ones that most americans tend to remember the most because of how portrayed in culture and larger than life personality was the rocket team but remember hundreds of other it is that were brought over that, either just simply become basic engineers and living in the United States but he had quite a few whose bghtsds caught up with them so a number of high profile paper clippers involved in war crimes during the war. And are discovered and sent back to germany mostly because of the embarrassment in the public attention. But also he had people who quite simply had lied about their capabilities and knowledge and were deemed not useful. And this happened a lot more than i think people tend to think because were so used to focusing on you know this glorious program and people who worked for or nasa but in reality you have people who knew if they can get a contract in the United States and get citizenship, theres a going to be the best offer they can possibly have. So they would fudge their records not only nazi Party Membership but how much they really know about whatever specified field it was. So number of people were simply let go. The more controversial ones such as herbert who was somebody who was really nothing more than a corporate lawyer that was a friend of brown turns out he was hard core senate disci and continue to harbor ideas and would promote them, among their friends. That it became too much and they were simply asked to go back to germany. So there tended to be a lot of a lot of scientists and engineers and family members who were either not what they had ticessed themselves to be there are a number of scientist who is past caught up with them and too embarrassing to keep in the United States because they have extensive nazi Party Records or had been involved it in war crimes that were verifiable Arthur Rudolf known as a father of the saturn rocket hes extremely controversial because hes someone who did have a very sketchy background nazi and couldnt erase that part of his record. But he was personally responsible for ordering the behangings of slave labors in the factory where it was produced in germany. And yet that was largely concealed or o deemed not provable until the 1980s when the office of special investigation which was part of the Justice Department opened the investigation based on some Historical Research that was done into his case. Progressed to mid1980s where he was facing possible trial and having, you know, being deported or voluntarily returning to germany. And he voluntarily left. But he also got to keep all his federal benefits but this was the the closest a paper clip acquisition it come to being prosecuted for their crimes and that was not until the 19, mid1980s. The program called paper clip would be 1945 to 1947 but it would exist in under additional names one that was called National Interest program. Where the idea was maybe the department of commerce could now get involved to bring over civilian specialist find them working in civilian you know corporations or in academia. Then around 1950s there was a program called project 63. Which was based on fear after the invasion of korea that there was going to be an all full scale war in europe so military thought we need to get remaining best and brightest out of germany out of harms way and so that they would not be rolled up in some soviet invasion so there was that red scare, mentality affected this program and idea that it should continue. This is was not happy with this notion that they could still just take whoever they wanted. Didnt go very far mostly because of diplomat pick reasons. But in some way or another journals have shown and other stories have shown that this program doesnt really die until the 19, 1970s. [laughter] i know theres a notion of trying to lure jer man scientists over, and have them work for us as opposed to their own country. Project paper clip is a topic that i think a lot of americans think they know a lot if already because we tend tonal that german scientists were very involved in our research and development. They were involved in nasa. But one of the things i focus on in the book are the people by oppose paper clip want to show just how contested of policy this was. And that it was the birth of a of a new National Security ideology between 1945 and 1947 in particular that revolved around military necessity as directing our National Policy thats, microcosm for early years of the cold war and how bureaucracy responds to a new environment and its not very pretty and i focus on personalities buttening are given short when we discuss Something Like paper clip. We know that brown, we know some of the military officers that helped this program get off the ground but we dont know the people who are at a moral objection to it or a practical objection to it and how they reconcile themselves to this new National Security environment. Twice a month cspan city tours take booktv and American History tv on the road to explore literary life and history of a selected city working with our Cable Partners we visit various literary and Historic Sites as we interview local historian and civic leaders. You can watch any of ow fast interviews and tours online by going to booktv. Org and selecting cspan cities tour from the series drop down at the top of the page or by visiting cspan. Org cities tour. You can also follow the cspan cities tour on twitter, for behind the scenes image and videos from our visits the handle it at cspan cities. Cspan where history unfolds daily. In 1979 cspan was created as a possible service by americas Cable Television companies. Today we continue to bring you unfiltered coverage of congress. The white house the Supreme Court and Public Policy events in washington, d. C. And around the country. Cspan is brought to you by your cable or satellite provider. Im sad today because friday i had to ask the United States sitting president when he signed proclamation about dr. King if he was a racist. Again, im sad todays about that. But with the patterns that have been going on and all of the other issues that have been happening globally, this is the Perfect Place to be. And for the conversation to be had not only is this the 50th anniversary year of the dr. Martin luther king, jr. , but two more anniversaries is an anniversary for the poor peoples campaign, 50 years and theres another anniversary. 50 years after the Current Commission report. This is a big year. But i think back to a couple of years ago when i was in selma with president barack obama celebrating the 50th anniversary of bloody sunday. If you took a or black and white picture and put it up against today, it would still look the exact same. The economics hasnt changed. Yeah, the blank boys an black girls can go to school with white people but selma still looks the same. But what the the irony is just a few weeks ago in december that black belt too include selma, alabama you know my friend john king at cnn likes to say who hes at the board the black belt is at the richness the soil but it is the richness the spirit. [inaudible conversations] the black people thats the mary frances related to slavery. Yes. I love to the fact that selma put jones over the top in alabama. 50 years later wanted change but what does that change look like in 1918 and what are listenses to learn from the past as we move forward as we are sitting in the now moment . And i want to go start with dr. Mary Francis Barry who i love sitting a at the knee and listening to his wisdom and stories that she tells. She told me a story just this weekend i want you to regale to give it to the crowd. When scott king widow of Martin Luther king, jr. Was alive they used to talk on mlk day and the question was what was had the question dr. Perry . Use your microphone [inaudible conversations] use your microphone. Turn it on. It would be what we would talk about two things. One, we would talk about what would martin do . About whatever was going on you know, what would martin do . And we would talk about it. And then we would say, she would say well what would martin say and we would talk about what martin would have said about whatever was going on, and this was for years. And in between Martin Luther king day between what was happening around the world so i always ask myself, i just came back from speaking down in tampa for their Martin Luther king celebration and what i talked about is what martin would say and what he would do about all of thats going on, and one of the stories you want me to tell the story . Tell the story one of the stories one time was the lbgt groups had been wanting her to come out to Say Something and in favor of the rights of people without regard to Sexual Orientation she told me she said the man who were with marte hadden whatever she said that she meant the guys who were in sslc with martin we knew she didnt have to maim this them said i shouldnt do it. Because thats not my issue. Thats not your issue and dont do it. But she said now, here question of to think about it. What would martin do . And we talked about it. And, of course, martin not only was he a race man in a class man. But he was a human right ares man. And he believed in the rights of all people and i said thats how we have to think about it. She said yeah she said so martin would do it. [laughter] i dont care what she said but i tell you what if you come down leer to atlanta to come out to stand with me, ill come out and do it. And she said now what would martin say . And question talked about that. But that was a story, there were other things over tomb time but i think one of the loan lonestars i think about it when im in a crisis over social justice. You know what are we doing in Free Africa Movement jail and what would martin do about this, or o the other i think thats an appropriate lonestar to try to think about on a day like this. But you also said something about there were components of what had dr. King would do, though one would be to organize. One of the things that he always would do about issues a learned over time thats the other thing, i mean, he wasnt just born with so much wisdom that he didnt food to learn anything and when he was chosen to be the leader by the people in montgomery in that church he wasnt born as a leader with a little thing on his belly saying youre the leader. He learned when they made a mistake like Albany Movement was a terrible failure. [laughter] there were some failures throughout the and he would learn and how to strategize how to organize how to pick targets. And how to figure out what you were going to get out of some situation when you were trying to lead the people. Because as he would say effective leader is not somebody who tries to lead the people and you dont sit around to figure out what youre trying to do or what the end result ought to be. You ought to be you know organized not enough even to be courageous. And to be willing to sacrifice. You have to be smart and strategic about what youre doing. And so that, i think, is something we should all learn about what he did did and how we go about this resistance that were engaged in. At this hour leverage and resistance and leverage thats a lot of things. I sometimes think that i said this this folks in tampa to see what they thought. I said you know if if i were dick durbin in the white house and president said whatever he said i dont know you have two guys who like him who said he didnt and one guy who hates him who said he did and other people running arranged in circles. But whatever he said, however he said it or whatever ive been in the white house and had people say stuff that they wouldnt want me to say i was sad that they did and i wont the tell that story. But i used it, leverage i always think about what martin said about using using for the people. For the cause your concern with you know, i would say diewpghtd me to tell people that you did so and so, and so and you said so and so now this issue that im trying to deal with what i want you to take care of now if i can get you to take care of that then you know, i might forget about what you just [laughter] said or what you just did. You know, if you will do daca for me and shut up i might go home. St so thats the kind of lnch i mean. So thats interesting bishop jakes and td jakes is here in the house. [applause] i used to watch when he said get ready, get ready. Get ready [laughter] but you know, bishop jakes, dr. Berry brought in what happened this week. The week started without a president saying, you know i want to bill of love. And then it turned to something drastically different. Is this about love . Is this about heart this whole situation be it, immigration, be it, any kind of policy thats on the table. Is it about love or is it just about the numbers and what economics look like . Well, to me it is first of all thank you for allowing me to be on this platform im way out of my league but since im here i might as well something no it occurs to me that it is, in fact, about love. But lot love it hard to legisla. You keapght pass an amendment that calls people to love you can monitor and get a fern not to say thing but not think them not to mean them and i think thats a futile pursuit for us as American People to try to manage hearts of people only god can do that. [laughter] sometime i wonder if we can manage our own feelings and emotions. I think that at the end of the day we will not rise and fall on pot backs of what one or two people think or say whether it is appropriate or inappropriate. We will rise or o fall because we have not corrected fail systems that need under belly of our society. And when you look at those fail systems like criminal justice system, like the immigration system like the Education System that calls us under privilege people and under served people not to have fair opportunities while this story is to the aggravating in a lot of other adjectives that i wont use. I think it is a distraction from the deeper issue that we must get to. Its not about personalities its about policies. Its it be getting policies in place that will really bring about kinds of change that will cause people to live a better life that really will affect people who are underserved and dont have proper opportunities. You can watch this and other programs online at booktv. Org. Monday president s day on the cspan networks, u67 30 p. M. On cspan the launch of land mark cases live from the National Constitution center in philadelphia where the review of the 12 historic cases featured in the series. At 7 30 p. M. , the portrait on bailing ceremony for former president barack obama, and first Lady Michelle obama. And then at 8 30 p. M. Slate magazine potential on compare watergate to today. On booktv on cspan2 at noon eastern, the 2018 savannah book festival with scott is shapiro and celeste and 9 p. M. Indepth fiction edition with policer prize and National Book award winner coalson white head on American History tfer on cspan 3 at 2 30 p. M. Eastern, historian on world war i and legacy of president qood row wilson. And at 6 30 p. M. Scholars explore the relationships between president s rontd reagan, george h. W. Bush and at 8 p. M. Historian and biographer richard on George Washington and the fight for philadelphia. Watch monday on the cspan networks. What what would be the impact if the democrat it is won control of congress and theyre t there indeed was an impeachment effort . What would that look and feel like and what would be impact be on people 45 of whom in a recent poll feel that trump has done a pretty good job is . And susan why dont we start with you and march down this way. Well, impeachment is a very serious thing. And i think we have to be aware of the fact that many people who dont feel that last year has been a fair year. Nobody has concentrated on the nations business particularly. And speculation on television every day web and i i really fear for our country if we start this cycling. This cycle of impeachment and then and if you look at the other damaging results of the impeachment efforts in the past, this is a very, very serious thing. Now i also take this seriously. Because i spent the share of my career traveling to russia, former soviet union, i can barely stand what i hear on television because they never invite experts to come on. And talk about russia is the situations way more complicated in all of this. And some of the things that come up on television are actually not only legal but perfectly normal. For people who are engaged in international affairs. Now, if there was any collusion, i mean real collusion not just speculation about collusion and this is a very, very serious thing. Very serious thing indeed. But i would ask all of my colleagues in washington im still living there. You know, that old expression that washington is hollywood unattractive people [laughter] let me tell you, you know theyre looking more and more unattract i have all of the time so this is a serious thing it is a very, very tough place to be. I dont think were looking at the nations problems in the right way. We dont have a strategy for everybody in this country and impeachment serious impeachment without unassailable causes behind that measure would cause damage to the country. [applause] new l about four months ago i dont think i would have special insight into mindset of the laicial liberal base of the Democratic Party. But i joibded for liberal news outlet now one called media and i moved about five minutes from the berkeley border so i think ive gained a little bit of insight into the mindset of what the kind of grassroots left think it is right now, and let me tell you theres going to be enormous pressure on on the democratic politicians if they take over the house pursue some type of impeachment facts will be i think that the 2020 candidates will feel enormous pressure to support that kind of impeachment because thats essentially when rank and file Democratic Base wants from them. So thats sense the 2018 kind of house elections are very important because it will have you know will result in almost inevitably that impact at least to feel the pressure to do so. It is possible they would relengt that i wouldnt expect that, and as far as with the impact of that will be, i dont think i have much to add but we are a country that has, you know, become deep more and more deeply fissure and trying to impeach a president that was duly elected it that i didnt support but there was duly elected with probably at that time 35, 40 approval, is only going to fissure more. Yeah. I agree with susan and tim said i would add this to practical observation. But lets assume that in democrs do take control of the house only by winning swing districts in the impression that tim talked about left you have are to be for this or youre out o is going to require one of two things it is either going to result in one of two things it is going to result in a lot of democrats in seats where they require independents votes to get elected. This is not nancy pelosi, district or o barbara lees district but this is a swing district in the midwest. It will require them to quack plank and theyll be gone after one term regardless of what happens on impeachment or it will it will result in house of representative failing to approve impeachment resolution supported by virtually all democrats o opposed by every republican and some democrats in the Democratic Party will be even more split going into 2020. This is not a you know, i agree the most important thing is bad for the country. Really bad for the country. But it will also be bad for the democrats unless as tim say theres clear and convincing evidence of able offense and you saw a little bit of this play out in f inside the republican party. In the failed impeachment of a guy who had sexing with an intern in the hallway off of the oval office and then lied about it costing him his law license even that republicans overplayed in ended up finding themselves in 2000 had we had a candidate who had stood up and said, you know, im going to make this an issue in the campaign, and bill clintons behavior. It would have been more damaging to the party but instead george bush refused to talk about it at all and simply said he would restore dignity and honor to the white house there by avoiding issue but did a lot more damage to in thes in 2020. Susan. Standing back and looking back at these various trends and exactly the kind of thing that karl was talking about. It makes me feel like were moving more and more towards parol meant rei system without any of the advantages of a parliamentary system in other words no opportunity to go to the country to reestablish credibility and now Political Parties are really only running races to benefit their bases. We dont have any leaders that i can see coming along who have a strategy for the entire country. On either side where we could actually make a choice and to live with that choice for four years. Im registered independent this was a choice im still waiting for both parties to talk to me and in a way that i regret it. I would love to join a party again. I would love to go back to the republican party. Im sympathetic to various elements of both parties. But do you know that there are 39 of the electorate in this country are independence. Which is a larger group than both republicans and democrats so this is really a sign when 39 of the electorate chooses not to be a member of either party. And so i think all kinds of things that feels like it is a very fluid situation at the moment. You can watch this and other programs online atbook tv. Org. Heres a look at upcoming book fair and festivals happening around the country. On march 10th and 11th well be live from the university of arizona for the tucson festival of books. With author talks and callins. This years festival features msnb katy and charles. Military historian max booth investigative journalist david k. Johnson and many other authors later in march the virginia festival of book in charlottesville. And then National Black writers conference in brooklyn, new york. In april, were headed to texas for the san antonio book festival and will be live once again at the Los Angeles Times festival of books. For more information about upcoming book fairs and festivals, and to watch previous festival coverage click the book fairs tab it on our website, booktv. Org. Youre watching booktv on cspan2 television for serious readers. Heres our prime time lineup, first up tonight emily prfortds a history of marijuana in the United States. At 7 45 Rolling Stones jeff reports on the rise of sea levels in changing coastlines then at nine ronan talks israel use of targeted assassination and booktv afterwards program at 10 former u. S. Trade negotiator and Senior Democratic Senate stacher ira shapiro argues the u. S. Senate has lost its political center. Hes interviewed by former Senate Majority leader tom, and we wrap up our prime time programming at 11 temperature with bill, and davis the latest book recounts nixon administrations eferghts to apprehend timny leary after his escape from prison in 1970. That all happens tonight on cspan2s booktv. 48 hours of nonfiction authors and books every weekend. Television serious readers. Now heres emily on the history of marijuana in the United States