On sunday, august 2nd booktv is live with media benjamin cofounder of the Political Advocacy Group code pink on in depth, our live monthly callin show. Shes the author or editor of nine books including her most recent an investigation into the use of drones for military purposes, drone warfare. Other titles include the greening of the revolution which examines cubas use of organic agriculture and stop the next war now on how to create political change through activism. Her other books cover topics such as how to aid People Living this the third world profiles of Inspiring Women and further examinations of cuba. Media benjamin, live, sunday august 2nd on in depth. And you can participate by sending your questions or comments to facebook. Com booktv, on twitter booktv or call in. Ginger adams otis talks about the 100year struggle to integrate the new York City Fire department which continues today. The fdny has only 300 black firefighters out of a total of 11,000. During this event held at green light bookstore in brooklyn, new york ms. Be otis is joined by some of the firefighters profiled in her book. Good evening and welcome to green light bookstore. Yeah thats the right response. So were really excited to have this event tonight as we launch the book firefight. All cell phones or ipads whatever that makes noise silent or put it on vibrate. There are books for sale at the register, and buy them plentifully so we can continue to do free events like one. Therell be a short reading and a panelist discussion and then a signing to follow so that you can get your books signed. Tonights event is being filmed by cspan, as you may have noticed, for booktv, and were honored to have them with us, so please be aware you might be on film for this event. We will be passing a microphone around for the question and answer period, so if you have a question at the end just make sure before you start asking said question that you have a microphone in your hand. So thanks for working with us with that. Our featured author this evening is ginger adams otis, shes a journalist who has been writing about new york city local politics and the fdny for more than a decade. Shes a staff writer at the Ny Daily News and has written for the New York Post wnyc, the ap, bbc, National Public radio and the village voice. Her new book, firefight the centurylong battle to integrate new yorks bravest, is based on nearly ten years of reporting and interviews with firefighters. It traces the history of race in the new york Fire Department from the first black firefighter in 1919 to the massive discrimination lawsuit finally settled in 2014. At the center of this book are stories of courage about firefighters risking their lives in the line of duty but also risking their livelihood by battling an unjust system. Otis shares the stage this evening with these firefighters all members of the Vulcan Society, an organization started in the 1940s to combat segregation and racism in the fdny which was instrumental in the struggle described in the book. The members here are all currently active firefighters who also appear in the book are Paul Washington you can clap for that. [applause] whos former president of the Vulcan Society and Michael Marshall clap for that [applause] yes. Former Vulcan Society president and fdny diversity advocate. The discussion will be moderated by tom robbins clap, yes very good. [applause] who teaches at the cueny graduate school of journalism. He is a former housing organizer and a Magazine Editor and has been a staff writer at the voice, the daily news and the observer and has written many highlyacclaimed stories on political corruption. Otis will read from the book followed by a discussion from the panelists and well have time for questions as i said, so please join me in welcoming all these lovely people to the stage. [applause] so good evening, everyone, thank you very much for coming. Thank you to green light bookstore for hosting us and for cspan for coming to cover this. In case you dont know whos who, thats tom robbins thats captain washington and that is Michael Marshall. So im going to do a quick reading for you tonight, and im going to punning up about pick up about partway through the book, and the book segways through two parts of the vulcans history and it weaves in the story of the founder of the association, wesley williams, who was the first in manhattan, and how he kind of found his way into the Fire Department, and then it also segways, it kind of weaves back and forth between his story and the modern day vulcans and the civil rights lawsuit that they brought starting around 2005 is when the department of justice really got involved. So were picking up in one of the chapters that deals with the history of paul and michael. And this was when they used to go out in the 90s, and they would do with other vulcans, of course, they would do recruitment in the streets of brooklyn. And theyd go out on the weekends with a little folding table, and theyd set it up in the corner with wobbly chairs and index cards, and if they saw a young person that looked particularly fit, they would try to get them to take one of the Fire Department tests. And a lot of the times the guys, the applicants they were approaching would want to know whats it like in the firehouse because, you know, i like the benefits, at that time 50,000 a year, sounds pretty good. The pension sounds pretty good, but whats going to happen to me when i get inside . And so were going to start with a story of captain washington and what he would tell some of the guys who would ask him that question on the street corner. And he would tell them stories about his days in engine seven. And there was one particular incident where he was getting hazed, as all the probies do. And there was a guy who a group of them turned a water hose on him and another firefighter a probie, while they were shooting hoops in their copious down time basically, waiting for a fire to come in. And paul didnt really like that. He knew he was getting hazed, but he thought one of the guys running the hose was a little too enthusiastic in spraying him down so he decided he was going to get revenge even though the probie is supposed to take whats dished out and not complain. So when the firefighter he didnt like was at a table reading a newspaper he got a bucket of really cold water, and he snuck up behind him, and he flipped the bucket over the guys head. And the guy, you know, shouts, and the other firefighters come running, and everybody thinks its hysterical, and the guys really angry and he sits there and pretends hes not bothered, and hes flipping through his wet newspaper. So paul is very belizeed with himself pleased with himself as young people often get when they think theyve outsmart their elders. This is kind of a story hes telling other people but were telling it in realtime. If hed been wiser in the ways of the firehouse hed have known that some form of retribution was coming. The senior firefighters couldnt let an upstart turn the tables on one of their own, no matter how funny the results, and a comeuppance was due. One night washington ran upstairs of the peaceful firehouse to go to sleep around two a. M. The night owl usually kept late hours. He left the lights off as he entered the pitch black bunk room so as not to wake the rest of the sleeping crew. He lay on his bed and closed his eyes but seconds later a strange plopping sensation feathered over his face and chest. Something was falling on him. He jumped up and ran to the bathroom, stopping dead when he caught his reflection in the mirror. He was covered in fluffy white dust. It coated his hair. Someone had rigged a bag of flour over his bunk to spill on him when he laid down, he realized. Enragered, he stormed into the next room where he knew the older firefighter hed dunked with water [inaudible] the late night flour shower. So washington connected the man kicked the mans bed to wake him up. You think youve got some kind of problem with me, then why dont you get up and well deal with it, he shouted. Get up, ill kick your ass, washington said. He cursed and called him names. The rest of the house was silent as washington raged. He went down to the kitchen and scrawl ised the message on a blackboard. After leaving it where everyone would see anytime the morning washington returned to the bunk room and showered off. It was only later he learned that the man had had nothing to do with the prank. [laughter] but everyone else in the firehouse had chortled under their blankets as washington, white flour spattered across all six feet of him, stomped through the place. When his sense of humor recovered, washington laughed about it too. What he didnt say to the young kids he was recruiting was sometimes the silly childish pranks firefighters loved to play on each other could take on a sharper more offensive edge. He didnt tell them some particularly cruel houses would appoint a goat. Life was hell for whoever the firefighters decided they didnt like, and the goal was to make the goat transfer out at the earliest opportunity. Sometimes the firefighters who would run into danger to save a black family without a moments hesitation would later make derogatory comments about the inner city communities they served while black firefighters, if there were any around, pretended not to hear. Washington could have told his potential recruits about the time he was detailed to a firehouse not far from his department. He was the lone black man at a table of 11 whites. He listened to the popular jocular lieutenant in charge a man everybody liked entertain the crew with a tale about his collegeage daughter and the time she came home for the weekend with a new set of friends, including a young black male. His fumbling attempts over the weekend to figure out the true state of their relationship. I aint got nothing against black people, but i certainly dont want my daughter to marry one, the lieutenant laughed as he delivered his punchline. The table roared except for washington. His mind flashed to the hundreds of black People Living and working right outside the firehouse doors. Nearly a dozen white firefighters were eating with him, and none of them heard anything wrong in what the officer just said. What specifically is it you wouldnt like he asked when the chuckles died down. Is it that youd have to sit down with inlaws that were black . What exactly is the problem . The room was silent for a second, and then the table erupted as the men jumped in to defend the officer. Washington gladly took them all on. It wasnt until 1992 that washington got settled in engine 234 in Crown Heights. By a lucky stroke of fate washingtons cousin gary was also assigned there. Not only were there many more fires, adding to the excitement and connection shared by the firefighters, there were four other blacks in the house too. There were none of the knockdown, dragout verbal fights that had erupted in his past firehouses in part because there were more blacks present and fewer of the white Fire Fighters had an ap appetite for that discussion. And beyond that, lieutenant bobby boldy didnt tolerate that type of infighting. And boldy who only stood about 58 but was built like a powerhouse, washington discovered a rare type of empathy. It wasnt a characteristic hed found among many of his other white colleagues. The stocky, upbeat lieutenant who always had a smile and greeted everyone with respectful courtesy almost never lost his temper, but when he did, the target of his ire was reduced to a quaking mess. Washington never witnessed boldy exploding, but hed heard tales from others. Boldy didnt gloss over the challenges black firefighters faced, and the unlikely pair sometimes met up to chat in boldys office talking frankly about Race Relations in the city, the obstacle for blacks to get on the job the many ways in which they could feel isolated and alone even in the midst of colleagues. There were one or two firefighters that washington general winly liked in 234, but he didnt open up about race with anybody but boldy who was one of the few who seemed to get that people could be more than their circumstances. In their quiet moments together, the two men reached an affinity that created a firehouse bond washington didnt have and never expected with other white firefighters. Once when washington was detailed for a day to a nearby firehouse, he got into a brutal fight with a firefighter who had a reputation as a troublemaker. Washington had always found avoiding him the easiest way to deal with him. After a few hours on the temporary detail when there was a break between runs, washington went upstairs and stretched out in a bunk. He wasnt aware of how much time had passed when suddenly the door flew open and the firefighter stood there screaming his name. Where the fuck have you been . Theres a phone call for you, and youre up here taking a fucking nap the firefighter yelled. Washington leaped up from the bed. You think youre a bad man . Go ahead and do it, he sneered. That was all he got out before the hulking firefighter lunged forward. He with regard his hands around washingtons neck, trying to choke the man. Washington twisted and shoved the firefighter backward on the bed. When he fell, washington pounced. But even sitting on the firefighters chest, it had every ounce of strength he had. They grappled without saying a word breathing heavily as washington struggled to hit him hard in the face. The firefighter beneath him blocked his punches with his beefy forearms. When the firefighter succeeded in pushing washington from his chest, they jumped from the bed, and they were exhausted, trembling from the intensity of the fight. When the fire alarm went off excuse me, when the fire alarm went off signaling a run, they stood glaring gulping for air. A few seconds later washington was on the back of his truck zooming away to respond to a fire. The other man, instead of going on the call, was relieved from his shift and went home. By the time washington got back to his own firehouse word had already arrived. Gossip inside the fdny ran faster than most flames creating the oftenrepeated groups telegraph telephone, tell a firefighter. Washington waved away the eager chatter, and the guy wasnt worth the hassle. A few weeks later washington learned the troublemaker had been transferred out of the house. It should have fallen to the officers to mete out that punishment, but none of them bothered with any disciplinary action. The transfer request had come from lieutenant boldy who quietly made some phone calls and put a firm word in a few ears. He never brought it up to washington and it wasnt something they had to discuss. Once during one of their wandering chats boldy in his blunt way summed up the basic reality of washingtons everyday firehouse life. Paul these guys aint ever gonna like you, youre just too proud of being black the lieutenant said, and washington had laughed recognizing his mothers attitude and the truth of boldys word. Around 1995 boldy was promoted to captain. Not long afterwards, he was diagnosed with cancer. As washington learned it didnt diminish his spirit. Boldy surprised washington with a gift. Here i want you to have these boldy said, stretching occupant his hand. The young firefighter saw two slim pieces of sliver lying in bolditems palm boldys palm. The inheritance was an old Fire Department tradition, one set of bars handed down from an officer to another as a special token. Washington was touched and proud that boldy wanted to share it with him. When he made lieu tempt boldcrushs bars were the ones pinned to his collar. His former boss lived long enough to see it. In washingtons experience, there were very few white men like boldy in the Fire Department or elsewhere, but he never had a problem promising black recruits if they took the job, theyd never regret it. The vulcans would be there to help them find a way out. You wont ever a have to worry about going through this stuff alone, washington would tell the young recruit, and it was 100 the truth. Their organization had been forged out of the vir you leapt racism of the jim crow era when the few blacks who were brave enough to try out for the job endured terrible treatment. Wesley wilkins founded the vulcans with the hopes that no other black person would feel as vulnerable as he did in his first days. [applause] [inaudible] okay. So we have been joined by Regina Wilson whos going to join us in a minute, shes the current president of the Vulcan Society and the first woman to hold that office, which is a lovely thing. And im sure she was busy working, because firefighters work all the time. [applause] and ill just turn it over to you, tom. Okay. Stay right there. Ill stay here, you can have your [inaudible] good evening. So, you know, this is a really good night to have this discussion, you know . Any night would be a good night to have this discussion, because this is something that just doesnt get talked about very much in new york, so its a good time period. But i didnt realize when ginger asked me to do this was that today is medal day right . So for years i covered city hall and city politics, and you see a lot of nonsense that goes on around town. But one of the really wonderful things that happens every year is it the first wednesday of june, is that when they do it . They empty out the entire plaza in front of city hall, flags, buntings, bag pipers and everybody shows up in their dress uniforms, you know, the chiefs in their big white hats and their white gloves, and all the families show up. Its a really marvelous wonderful occasion. They gather together to honor all of the acts of true bravery by firefighters and Emergency Service responders. And they go through them one by one. I didnt i wasnt there this year, but i looked at the picturings. And, you know, it struck me again as it had the first time i saw it that this is sort of like the model of what, for a proud civic occasion that a city would have, you know . Lets honor the people who risk their lives to go into burning buildings to try to help us when something happens. And i i i looked at the pictures a little bit different hi this time, because i was thinking about this event and i thought about how even though it is this wonderful occasion, the crowd there doesnt look like most of new york still. You know . It looks like part of new york, dont get me wrong but it doesnt look like the new york i live in brooklyn. It doesnt look like the new york right here that were sitting in at the edge of fort green. Its a different city. So how did that happen . Its one of those, you know to me, sort of enduring, like, both mysteries as well as puzzles as to, you know, how it could be that we could have this wonderful organization, new york Fire Department, and yet for so long and a time when everybody was supposedly so conscious of discrimination and the need for civil rights the need for advancement, and yet to this day it still remains such a small number. So thats what were going to try to talk about. And were going to try to answer a few questions for the next few minutes. Ill ask some questions and then well open it up, and some of you folks can also weigh in on either your feelings about this book or this event or questions for folks who are up here. Could i start with you . We havent met, but im pleased to meet you and glad youre able to be here. Would you just sort of set the stage for us as to where are we at now . Youre the newlyelected president of the Vulcan Society. Congratulations on that. What are the numbers like . What are we looking at in terms of the proportion of both africanamerican white hispanic firefighters in new york . Well, currently africanamericans right now [inaudible] were getting at 6 . [laughter] [inaudible] every other group that is of color is under 1 . And women are. 5 . Yeah. I know wow. So thats where were at right now. Were still working 75 years later to make a lot of these changes happen. So the numbers are progressively moving up, hoping that we surpass 6 , i think 6 is the most weve had in the history of the department. 6, 7 . Were hoping to pass that. So were working diligently to change those numbers. Youve been a firefighter since 1999, is that right . Yeah. And youve seen some changes over this period of time that youve been there. Do you feel that as a result of people who dont know, i mean, a lot of this book is about a legal case that was filed by the Vulcan Society. Right yeah. To try to address this inequity. Right. How do you think its doing . Well, i think because of the lawsuit thats when the department had an opportunity to see the most minorities come out of the class from the lawsuit. The last, i would say, all the most of the classes that weve had have been record numbers in history. So our last class had about 53 africanamericans alone, and thats one of the highest numbers that weve ever had. Is so were making strides and our numbers are growing. So because of the lawsuit, this is why its been a possibility. And as for women we just the original amount of women that came in was 41. Were at 46 now. So i mean, its very slow. So but were still hoping to make great strides. But its because of the lawsuit weve been able to get a lot more numbers in due to the hard work of these two gentlemen right here and the rest of the Vulcan Society members that have participated. Let me ask you one more question before i let you go here, because i heard you say this at one of the other events that youve done or a recording of it theres a lot of misunderstanding about this test. Yes. In terms of, you know, whether or not people who failed it didnt get on. But, in fact, the test is very competitive. You had to have how high a number in order to pass, in order to be eligible to be called for the department . I think thats one of the biggest misconceptions, and even it even goes that way with some of the firefighters. Some of the firefighters, you know, from this test were upset with saying that the test was lowering of standards, and i passed the test, and how can you say it. But if you get a 97 probably, or below you will not get hired. So if anybody got a 90 on a test before, youre like yes [laughter] but for the Fire Department youre not going to get hired. So you cant say that someone failed the test because they got a 90. They just failed to get hired. So when you have africanamericans who may not be in the top but may be in the middle, theyre not getting hired or maybe lower on the bottom that doesnt necessarily mean they failed the test. So they might have gotten an 88 which is passing to everybody else, but to the Fire Department will not allow grow to get hired. Allow you to get hired. So those are some of the reasons that we saw the disparate a impact of not being able to reach those groups because of the way the test was structured. It was not giving minorities a fair advantage of taking this test. And it, a lot of people are lined up to take these tests. I mean, the number of people who take them is thousands of people every time there is a test. 46,000, i think was the last and theres a reason for that. Captain washington, right . I mean, these are good jobs, these are solid jobs, stable jobs at which both you have this wonderful i dont know, wonderful, it seems like to those of us who have a 40hour workweek but you have a condensed workweek which allows you to pursue other things in your off time. Theres Something Else that is a trickledown effect that i think all of the families that have been lucky enough to have firefighters both in their family and in their community thats really important as to why this is really meaningful for the africanamerican community. And you came from a firefighting family. You understand this really well. Tell us a little bit about the importance of what does it mean to have firefighters in the family and in the community . Okay. First thing i want to say is i have some of my kids here today and all those curses you heard attributed to daddy, i never said that. [laughter] [applause] [inaudible] but no, it is a fun type of job. It is the type of job where if youre not familiar with how good the job is, a lot of times you dont strive to do it. A lot of things that people think the biggest thing people think is theyre going to get hurt theyre going to get killed on this job so that tends to make them want to shy away from it. Thats an advantage that black people in the city dont have, because theres so few black firefighters. As you said my father was a firefighter, my older brother kevin, whos here today was a firefighter. So i was inspired by them and it made it clear to me, real to me that this was something i could do. Older cousins as well. So thats a huge advantage. For anybody to claim that they have a Family Member on the job but thats no big deal no, thats a huge advantage. And very few blacks have that advantage, and hundreds of thousands of whites do have that advantage. So, yeah theres no question about that. What does it mean what does it mean to the neighborhood to have folks your uncle your dad coming home off the trucks and just showing up in their uniforms or whatever they did what kind of message does that send to the community . People in the community, theyre very proud of black firefighters. Even when they see black firefighters in the firehouse. The people in the neighborhood, theyre just proud of it. They like to see it. The company that i work in we have a decent number of blacks in the company and when people on the street see us, they really they really like it. They respond well to it. So yeah, its important. Lieutenant marshall down there at the end, thank you for being here and talking about this stuff with us. Youve been 33 years in the Fire Department . 33 years, yeah. Ive been a lieutenant for 21 years. I worked at williamsburg for 12 years and ca not city for the remainder. And what made you [laughter] what made you become a firefighter . Well, i just went and took all the tests, all the city tests. I was doing construction work and started Construction Union when i was 18. Back then there was no early retirement, you couldnt retire until you were 65, so i did the math and came up with 47 years of construction work, and it just wasnt adding up with me. I knew Civil Service, i knew the only two things i knew about this job was that there was 20year pension and you didnt get laid off. So i took it on that alone. I didnt believe the 20year pension thing, but i knew it was job security. I didnt have any kids at the time, i didnt have a lot of bills, so i was able to make the change. I took a drop in pay by the way, because i was in the carpenters union, so i was making decent money. I took a drop in pay to come on the fire d. And then after i came on the Fire Department i realized we had so much time off that i called up my old boss, and i went back to construction work. [laughter] so i did construction work five days a week and i worked in the firehouse on nights and weekends, and i was able to save some money. You know, its funny, i covered labor for years and i covered a lot of the construction trades, and they used the phrase father son local a lot to describe electricians, plumbers some of the really wellpaying trades. And i realized in reading gingers book, you could almost apply that phrase to the fire d. I think the Fire Department. Ive heard you say, lieutenant that the Fire Department doesnt change very quickly or that it has a hard time with change. Just tell us about that. What do you mean by that . Well, you know, its just an organization that never wants to change. They dont believe they can change, and they have to be forced to change. I mean, you know, this lawsuit was a great example of that. I mean, in the two years since weve started hiring off of this new test we picked up almost 200 blacks. And we were at 300 blacks for almost 20 years. So in a short period of time we almost doubled our numbers. You know . So it can be done. But, you know, the job is just so against change, you know . There was nobody, all the commissioners that weve had over that time and the mayors, nobody was willing to really take the step that was necessary to change the written exam which was the worst culprit. I mean, all the other cities across the United States had changed or reworked their exams even the ones that had consent decrees, they hired because of the consent decrease but they also changed the exams. They gave orals they gave different types of modernized exams when the Fire Department just kept sticking with the same exam over and over and over and wouldnt change. If i could if i could Say Something as well to follow up what mike said, theres several things, theres a bunch of things. Its the test, its recruitment its having a good, enforceable five points for residency and several other things. Mike and myself, people like dewey, people like lieutenant jose garcia, we knew about what the problems were, and weve always brought these problems to the attention of the Fire Department. It was never a problem where they didnt know what had to be done they just didnt want to do it. And we couldnt make them do it, you know . So what we finally did was not only bring the lawsuit but we brought a lot of Media Attention to it and and a lot of political power to bear, and thats how it got changed. But there are better ways to bring blacks and women and people of color into the Fire Department than what is now, what is now become. Its good the way it is, but it could be a lot better. They never just wanted to sit down with us and reason with us and come up with a solution. They never had the will. We had to force them to do it. And one other thing id like to say is all of this came from the Vulcan Society. Mike and i get a lot of credit, but it truly was a grassroots effort from the Vulcan Society. But it was only the Vulcan Society. The Hispanic Society and the womens organization, they not only didnt join us in the lawsuit, but they didnt join us in the other actions we were taking. In fact, they stood as far away from us as they could. They didnt want any part of the vulcans, and they wanted to be safe and nice and so on in the firehouses, and they stayed as far away from us as they could. But now today theyre enjoying more benefits out of this than us. Hispanics are coming on to the job at a higher percentage than blacks right now, and women are coming on at a much higher rate than they did in the past. And they did absolutely nothing to bring this about. As often happens, the trailblazer leads everyone there. Let me ask you this, you mentioned city hall, the mayor the commissions, they knew what they had to do. You met at least a couple of times i think i read in gingers book yourself and lieutenant marshall as well with mayor bloomberg. And, you know mayor bloombergs aides always liked to brag about the fact that he was sort of a cut above other politicians because he was datadriven. He only paid attention to the numbers. He was looking at metrics, and thats how he made up his mind about things. But somehow when you told him there was such 50 of the city was black and hispanic and yet there was, like, a much lower number in the department, he didnt get those numbers, apparently. And at one point when the judge over here in brooklyn was ruling, he said this is the craziest thing hes ever heard. What did you make of mayor bloombergs response to your efforts to try to get him to come around on this question . Well, i think i think part of it was they underestimated the Vulcan Society and how much we wanted to see this change, the entire society, how much we wanted to see this change. And also i think they didnt want to listen to us. I think they felt like we were just firefighters, what do we know about this . You know, im the mayor im the commissioner, i know how to fix this problem not to listen to these, you know, to these firefighters. I think that was a big problem. And the way it worked out we first brought an eeoc complaint against the Fire Department. That complaint was substantiated, and the eeoc the federal everything eoc said okay, Fire Department and vulcans, sit down and work this problem out. The Fire Department refused to come to the table to even talk about it. Then it went to the Justice Department. The Justice Department investigated the Fire Department for about two years, a thorough investigation, and they found the same thing. And they said the same thing to the Fire Department, sit down with the vulcans and work this out or were going to bring a lawsuit. And they still refused to do i. And thats how we ended up with the lawsuit, because they just refused to listen to reason. Well, they clearly underestimated you. We could state a number of times. But i guess the thing i wonder about as a reporter is that do you feel that city hall understood that there was a problem that needed to be fixed but was afraid to do it . Lieutenant . They had to understand the problem. I mean, the numbers alone showed you that there was a problem. It wasnt only bloomberg, it was the mayors and the people who had ran before him. So, you know, they had to know what the problem was. It wasnt only us telling them that they were giving an illegal exam. It was the eeo Practices Commission had written a scathing report, other politicians had contacted them and wrote letters rangel, yvette clark. It wasnt just us, it was everybody. And it was obvious i mean, when you looked at the list and they gave these exams and you looked to see where minorities were, blacks were always in the middle and the bottom of the list. List after list after list. We only sued for the last two lists, but the lists before that going all the way back to brenda burkmans lawsuit were just we were coming on at 1 and 2 . It was ridiculous. So it wasnt like they didnt know. We knew exactly what the problems were, the largest problem was the written exam. Everybody knew it, and then there were other things, you know as you went down the line. They knew it, we knew it, everybody knew. But also just listening to ginger one of the things ginger said she tried to do as a reporter is to figure out from city hall, like, why . Like, you know, to this day she says she doesnt even know why they decided to go forward with this lawsuit looking at the statistics and looking at the numbers, still dont know why. And i think that one of the reasons i think might have come close to an explanation was the gentleman in the chief from the chief who said he thinks bloomberg might have been pushing the fact that we said that the department intentionally discriminated against. And he probably was so, you know defiant against having that label on him and his administration that that was probably part of the reason why they fought back. But to this day we really dont know why. And they kept losing. Every time we would come with something at them, held lose you know . They got up there and explained the testing procedures and saw flaws in it. So they kept losing every time, but they just kept pushing, you know, just being really indignant about what we wall wrong and strong. We call wrong and strong. I just wanted to say one thing. When i went through the discovery in the lawsuits all the way through all the documents that had been pulled up, from in 1999, and the vulcans are correct in that they could have mounted challenges even earlier but in 1999 with the preparation of that test, there was a Fire Department official who wrote a memo and said questions have been raised about the fairness, the diverse the disparate impact on people of color with these tests, and have we done anything to correct this test. They were writing to the agency that regina just mentioned, the department of city wide administrative services, and they create these tests s. So somebody within the Fire Department actually tried to raise a flag and say we have had complaints about this. There are allegations that this has a disparate impact. Has anybody looked into it . And there was no answer. There was nothing in the wrote record, no response to that. And normally the cut ah rate for these tests is 70. So anything above a 07 is passing even though youre not going to get hired, you know unless youre in the high 90s. That year for reasons that have never been made clear dcas went and set the passing rate at 84. 65, Something Like that. And even then got a memo and said youre going to be hurting minorities even more because they tend to be in a band in the high 80s and low 90s. So this we recommend, again dont do that, because thats even compounding the problem. And they did it anyway. So lets talk for just a couple of minutes before we open it up. Ginger opened up with this incredibly gripping story about captain washington as a young probee and starting out and what he encountered. But some of the stuff thats in the book about the casual use of the nword around the station house, some of the stuff people think, well, i got called an ethnic slur, so whats your problem with that, im curious from the three of you whats it like now in the station houses . Regina . I think people are a lot more careful now about what they say. Especially since theyve realized that they can lose their jobs for throwing ethnic slurs around. So theyre a lot more craftier with their discretions. I think the Tour Department is a microcosm of america. Its just like society at large, and things are much more subtle today. The racism is still there, its just much more subtle than it was in the past. I have to agree with that, but the nword is still being used. And youre hearing. That i know of. And people look at you when theyre using this word or oh, no i mean, just like captain washington said, its done subtly. So the last person that got called, you know, the nword when approached, they said i said neighbor. [laughter] close, no cigar. Okay. Well, you know, the part of what sets the pace for all of these conditions, we started out talking about, you know, what it means to be a firefighter and the kind of conditions that make it conducive have the numbers within the firehouses helped change that at all, have they made it more comfortable . Captain washington . Thats the only thing thats going to change things, when theres enough blacks and women and people of color in the firehouse. When you come in in my firehouse, theres always 13 firefighters on duty. When three or four are black and three or four are hispanic, you have a whole different atmosphere. When its just one lone person of color or one woman, its a lot harder. Thats whats going to change it ultimately is enough of us coming on to the job. Theres been some blowback as well. Theres stories in the New York Post fairly regularly in the last few months about people who they say got in because of the lawsuit who shouldnt be on the job, and they quote a steady stream of anonymous folks who were supposed to, allegedly, are your fellow firefighters who say theyve lowered the standards now. Theres another guy they called tragic johnson who doesnt want to fight fires. Whats going on here . Is this stuff thats . Real should i be concerned as a citizen that theres people who are not going to race into a fire to save me and my family . I think that not everyone that is on the Fire Department is 100 . Nobody is 100 . So there are people that know their job and know their job well. There are some that know their job and some of them that dont really know their job but i think that the level of performance and excellence is the majority of the job. So with every job you have people that dont really home in on their craft. Theyre there, they know what to do and they come to work. But just speaking about the post its just really weird to me because one of the things that were having a problem with in the department is leaking of information. So, you know, youre hearing you know, just stuff that is really precise about peoples numbers and the scores and, you know, and its violating peoples, you know, whats going on in their time in training. So the leaks they definitely have to take care of. But as you read these articles, youll see when they only talk about lowering of standards its only with people of color and women. So you cant tell me that white people do not do things that are not always done correctly. So you have to judge the person as they come and not just consider, you know, a person of colors lowering of standards. So they talk about johnson now. Hes a priority hire, what do we do to, you know, look at what were doing getting these priority hires on, you know . They dont know what johnsons story is. But did they really did the post ever put in an article about jordan sullivan who was a priority hire that got a medal today . Tell us about jordan sullivan. Jordan sullivan works in 105 219, and he had a, he saved a child out of a burning building. He got a writeup in the New York Times. Hes been recognized by a lot of different agencies, and today he received a medal. And he is someone who came through the Vulcan Society. We helped to train him and got him well, you know, we collectively helped to get him on the job, but he deft worked very definitely worked very hard to do it. He was very diligent and precise about what he wanted, and he went after it. And due to the fact that he trained hard, he received a medal today. But does the post write about that . Theres a few people that were priority hires that have gotten medals and done heroic acts, but you would never hear about that. These people have a lot more knowledge of the world and and how it really works and know the responsibilities of having a job. So, you know, if youre going to print it, print out right. Fair enough. All right. So were going to open it up for folks who would like to ask questions. I dont know if theres a mic thats going to be passed around . Angels got it, so if youve got something you want to say, shoot up your hand, and well pass you the mic. First question from uhoh i think hes going to correct something that his brother said. [laughter] not right now. I just mike, paul and regina, you should be applauded. Youve been on this, these events and these type of issues since you came on the job. We know youre not the only one but youve brought this thing so far forward that you should be proud of the work that youve done. [applause] and i have a question for the author but paul, im surprised you had to use such rough language in a firehouse. I never heard [laughter] ginger what got you interested in the Fire Department, and particularly this issue and whats your next project . Um, retiring. [laughter] but from writing. But i dont have a firefighter pension, so ill be working for a long time on other things. But i was assigned to cover the Fire Department when i was working for the chief leader which was my first print job really like i wanted to get on a newspaper not knowing that was going the way of the dodo bird. And i thought i would get a great education there. It covers city hall really well, and i did. One of the very first press conferences that i was told to go and cover was the Vulcan Society, and it was dreary and paul and michael. And it was a fascinating story and i was so naive about the city and how it worked and Civil Service that, to me, it was all brand new, and i just thought it was really fascinating and covered it for about ten years. And were glad you did and put together the book. Who else . [inaudible] yes, maam. Thank you so much for your service. My grandfather, james calendar was a firefighter and i was just at vulcan hall the other day because we had a death in the family, and they hosted the repass, so i just wanted to thank you all for that. I just had a question about i guess, the differences between what it was like before 9 11 and after, did you all feel that maybe some of this negative reporting is coming from kind of like a feeling that maybe its bringing down the reputation of fdny around the world, you know post9 11 due to the issues that have been going on for many many years . Well i think sometime theyve used 9 11 as an excuse. Theyve said that our image across the world the new York City Fire departments image across the world is so high that its a shame that were, you know, saying all of these bad things about the Fire Department and that we are bringing the image down. But thats just an excuse. That just was an excuse to try to get us to keep quiet. You lost somebody in 9 11 who was someone who you had helped recruit, right . Can you tell us about him briefly . It was well the person i lost on 9 11 that i was the closest to was keith roy maynard, keith maynard, and he was really a great guy. He came to our Training Classes and so op, he joined the Vulcan Society, he was on the executive board, and he was a great guy. His girlfriend was my wifes best friend, you know . I hooked them up. And so it was very sad when he passed away. That was always one of my biggest fears, that somebody that id helped get on to the job would pass away, and it was him and a couple other firefighters that died at 9 11 that i had had a hand in getting on the job. So it was very difficult. Equal opportunity tragedy. Yes, regina. I just wanted to piggyback on the 9 11 comment. I think that during all of this time and also with the department and things that are going on now people have a tendency to blame the victim and not blame the person who has done it in the first place. So people need to take a look at the Fire Department. Dont look at the people that were harmed by it and say oh, its all your fault. Its like no, people deserve to have a quality of life. Thats i just want to go to work, go home, have a vacation, have a great quality of life. I dont want to come to work, i dont want to be harassed, i dont want to have a hostile environment. I just want to work. I want to do what i want to do go be home and take care of myself like everybody else. Everybody want to take care of their family and kids, but you cant blame the people that were victimized by the fire d. Youve got to look at the Fire Department and what it is and really see it for what it is. Then youll understand, stop blaming the victims. Yes. The question i have, my name is jose garcia, i used to be the former president of the Hispanic Society, just recently retired after 35 years on the job. [applause] i just want to let everybody here know just exactly what the process was. We initially started this trying to Fire Department in new york city, and what we did was recruitment. Back in 1999 i think the budget of the new York City Fire department was about one billion, and i believe they spent one million on recruitment. So it was less than 1 . So we know where their heart was at. We noticed that there was a dramatic change once the lawsuit was implemented. Thats when they decided hey, were being looked at, lets put some money into this recruitment, and lets see what we can do. As far as merit is concerned and i said this once before but we had two individuals that were tried for seconddegree murder. Those two individuals were allowed to come on. We always heard about merit merit, merit merit. So in that respect when you argue with some of these guys well if youre talking about merit, how do you let two individuals that were tried for seconddegree murder whether they were found innocent or not and by the way, they were found innocent up in albany, anyone whos been around back then would realize that case destroyed a lot of faith in the judicial system. We have three men in the room, two have been indicted. The governor decides to cut a corruption investigation. So this is what were dealing with. This is what we came across. So we knew there was something wrong. And then when you mentioned bloomberg, bloomberg went from 4 billion his worth when he came into become mayor when he left after 12 years and turned the city charter, he was worth 35 billion. So this is what we came across. And also keep in mind and i want you to make shower you understand read make sure you understand, read the book. Once that red door closes, thats a whole different can world. They say behind that red door dont you anyone use that title, behind the red door. Once that red door closes, youre on your own. And i always say any young man whos coming up to the Fire Department right . You better learn how to box. [laughter] absolutely. Thats jose garcia who, when he was head of the Hispanic Society, it did stand with the vulcans. Unfortunately, he was not president during the bulk of their lawsuit. But just very quickly dovetailing off some of the question about 9 11 and the question before that about the different treatment in the firehouses sometimes, i will note that post9 11 there was a lot of emotion in the Fire Department, and there were some very public cases of drinking on the job, there were some emotional outbursts. There were things that were that made the papers because they were so big that they couldnt be hidden. And there were not any claims of threats to Public Safety at that time. And the commissioner, the problem with some of the drinking was so bad that the commissioner for the first time implemented a zero tolerance policy right . Because before thatyou had a drinking problem you handled it in house. And your officers and your brothers would cover for you or make sure you went to rehab but they would make sure you didnt get in trouble for that. And after so many problems the commissioner said forget it. You come forward and say you have a problem, well send you to rehab on the taxpayers dime. If you get caught drunk or doing drugs, youre going to lose your job, and that made him very unpopular well, he was unpopular. That decision was very unpopular. So there has always been or up until recently a problem with some firefighters with drinking on the job. Its not new. Alan mcnair had a problem in 1986 one of the first black female firefighters, with a man who was found drunk in uniform be on duty in his firehouse and he did get in trouble and the recommendation was that he lose his job. And the fire d. Wouldnt fire him Fire Department wouldnt fire him. And they suspended him and fined him, and the union stepped up and covered his find. And nobody talked about threats to Public Safety at that time. So theres a lot that goes on there that doesnt come out until you really force it out. Id like to follow up on that and on toms question about, you know, as new yorkers are we safe. With the ways in which firefighters are selected. Ill preface it by saying i run a writing program and i do give a writing test when i hire people. And i learned maybe 30 years ago not to rank people on the test, that there were writing skills were important, i had to make a cutoff, you know, at the 70 or whatever level it was and then look at a lot of other factors. And thats for a writing program. Fighting fires is not a writing program, right . So is it sounds to me like a system was created that in a way filtered, if you will, white people in. And is there are a lot of people and so there are a lot of people, you know who probably, who maybe shouldnt be there. That would be the case in my program if i hired only from the top of my list, lets put it that way. And i do wonder as a citizen do should i feel safe . Is do you feel that there are too many people, white people who got in through kind of a cronyism system who maybe really shouldnt be there or do those people once they get in the job step up to it . Yeah. I think youre safe. Make a long story short, youre safe. [laughter] you know especially if you live in Crown Heights where my firehouse [laughter] [applause] but, no be, youre right. A lot of the things that, a lot of the ways that people were brought on, a lot of the nepotism that existed did it did result in people coming on to the job who shouldnt have been there. As i said in my family, theres seven of us who are on the job, either are or were on the job. And some of us came in because you know, your father went to told them, hey listen, go take the test, made em take the test or maybe somebody else had a problem their daddy was able to straighten out and thats existed for, you know, 150 years. So to pretend that everything is based on merit and everything is fair or that everything was based on merit and was fair and now thats over with and the whole citys going to burn to the ground, thats just a joke. You know, i learned so much reading your book, ginger about the personnel review board the prb, and maybe there were a could being of stories in there that just amazed me in terms of the person who ran the prb actually said in a deposition for the lawsuit that they encouraged people who knew applicants to step forward and say i know him or her, or i know their family and theyre good people. Is that right . Yeah. Yeah. The hiring process, it was kind of incredible all the way through each when you got through the even when you got through the test. What you had alluded to is an important but subtle point. For a long time, the Fire Department was giving these tests because they had 40,000 people applying for about 3,000 jobs. So, you know they didnt have to worry about recruitment. They had plenty of people, and you have to weed people out some way. This was the system they used, they didnt worry about it too much. The fact that it was netting more people of color netting more blacks, they were like, hey, those who really want the test will get on. And that was kind of their de facto attitude and they had an interesting way of keeping records. What was that . And they didnt keep records. Even if you did score high enough, like kurt coy or bobby smith whos back there and you got on the job and got through even if you got on to, got through that written test, then you had to get through your background, your medical and all kinds of things. And if there was something in your background that whoever was in charge of personnel that day found suspicious you might be referred for review by this personnel review board. And what happened there was kind of anybodys guess, because they didnt follow any Human Resources guidelines, they didnt have any best practices they didnt keep notes they didnt keep memos. They really didnt track who went and who went before that board and what was the outcome. And what did come out through the lawsuit and the depositions was that it was very common and in fact encouraged for someone who knew a candidate whod been referred for review to come forward and say listen, that guy is a buddy of my, you know, chief in my house and im going to the take care of him. The woman who testified would say there was a lot of domestic violence. Ah look, he was drunk and got in a fight, but hes a good guy. You can let him on the job. So these things were happening. And when the lawsuit was progressing, actually the intentional discrimination, the second part of the lawsuit got to the courts on appeal, the citys lawyers said criticized the vulcans lawyers arguments and said they couldnt even mange a good case on that. I really enjoyed the excerpt that ginger read. And one thing that jumped out at me was the Office Officer who said to paul, he said these guys, we are never going 2 like you because your too proud of being black but that jump out at me and when you think about the Fire Department, one thing you always hear about is brotherhood about how tight the guys are and how offduty the guys are hanging out and they do these things together, they will donate a long for you or whatever and it kind of makes sense that if you are going into a very dangerous situation that could create a bond. My question what could you say about the brotherhood, you know, despite you being a proud member of Boston Society and someone who represents this lawsuit which is kind of heated ated and the job. I havent felt much brotherhood on this job, and i am just being honest. I never felt i was part of a massive brotherhood. That is my experience. As far as the lawsuit, it has been overwhelmingly negative, it is rare a white firefighter will Say Something to me supportive of the fight we wage. I think this was done over the objections of not only the mayor but the fire commissioner, the leaders of the Fire Department our union and the rankandfile which was not done with their aid, but despite them. I am so glad this book has been written especially as well as it is written, so exciting and reading. [applause] this book can be used almost as the blueprint for black people across the country. And Something Else in another city. And using it what we have at hand. And things that need to be known is they were validated. And not only was it validated, what the city needed was unconscionable. Those types of things other reason we felt our sons and daughters have an opportunity to have jobs to be separate through something, we have an opportunity to benefit from good paying jobs in the city. It is not over and it is a shame the powers that be feel is Still Necessary to stop something they know is right. That is the problem. Can i add something to that . Going back to the 9 11 comment and making society look vilified. The firefighters in the fire houses should be outraged they had a test that wasnt validated. And the city did not do you justice by a test that was not validated. They all came up to me, and firefighters get mad and got so much time on and technically the ones that came up in the lawsuit was technically firefighters. Technically came on the right way with that test. We all came on it and forced the fight and got on but they came on with a test that was validated that went through proper channels to say you are fit to be a firefighter and even though we have done the job and have proven it and that is technically the truth. The stated goal was they were advocating for black people to get these jobs, but the biggest benefactors of their work were the white firefighters because they by far take the test in the biggest numbers and when you look at the people who wear the most disenfranchised, the way the firefighters were coming out in large groups and of small percentage of them through a test that had no meaning and did a good job on the s. A. T. Tests firefighter, maybe the guy who spoke spanish, anna mom and from jamaica and had great abilities you could bring to this job involving interaction with the diverse city, you had 92 so no block. One question to the audience before i say good night how many folks are eager formerly or currently in the Fire Department, either you or your family have been affected by what happened to their preference. And give you an idea of what you accomplish. Thank you for being here. [applause] thank you guys so much. Thank you so much. If we did have a round of applause for ginger adams otis. [applause] a round of applause for our tremendous tremendous analysts. [applause] so they will be up here to talk to you, to sign books, the books are out there obviously and thank you for coming, have a beautiful night. Thank you for coming. You are watching 48 hours of nonfiction books on cspan2s booktv television for serious readers. Booktv recently visited capitol hill to ask members of congress when they are reading this summer. When i get down time i am looking forward to reading the quartet, founding brothers and with all due respect to tom brokaw, the greatest generation the generation in philadelphia found in our country, what is interesting about the quartet is a period in the 1780s, the class of the articles of confederation weaving into the constitutional convention, and the Central Government was too week and what led Alexander Hamilton and George Washington and James Madison and john j. To come together and actually form a completely new government. Taking the capital from philadelphia and brought to washington d. C. But other than that is system that has last quarter of a millennium. Booktv wants to know what you are reading this summer. Tweet as your answer at booktv or post it on our face book page facebook. Com booktv. President ial candidate often released books to introduce themselves to voters and to promote their views on issues. Here is a look at some books written by declared candidate for president. You are watching the tv on cspan2 with top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. Batik, television joy serious readers. Here are programs to watch during this weekend on booktv. Ralph nader discusses the unanswered letters on government policy that he sent to president s george w. Bush and barack obama. Senator and republican president ial candidate marco rubio talks about his book American Dreams and a Panel Discussion on new orleans ten years after hurricane katrina. For complete Television Schedule visit booktv. Org. Booktv 48 hours of nonfiction books and authors. Television for serious readers. Representative Steve Russell of oklahoma sits down with booktv to discuss his experience in the army as commander of the battalion that captured iraqi president Saddam Husseins in 2003. His book we got him a memoir of the hunt and capture of Saddam Hussein is next on booktv. Congressman Steve Russell for republican of oklahoma. According to general raymond you were one of the two individuals most directly responsible for the capture of Saddam Hussein. The title of the boat is we got him a memoir of the hunt and capture of Saddam Hussein, not i got him. When we look back at the series of Events People didnt imagine putting pieces together developing at cumin experience that is so crucial, very high praise from a man i respect the great deal very unusual for a sitting chief of staff of the army to ready forward to anything when they are still serving. I was humbled by the comments. Jim hickey who serves on the Senate Armed Services staff which is interesting we are both here now but at the time there was this sense the we might be able to get on his trail and with the team of teams if we work together, maybe somebody can get him. Where were you . Weiner you in iraq . Guest i was in tikrit, iraq in the spring of 2003. I got later than the division because the original plan was to go through turkey and to attack Republican Guard elements from the north as the 100 first airborne. And to hit the objectives of the Republican Guard first for a round tikrit. That was always the plan but when the Turkish Parliament said you cant come through turkey everything got recruited. I joined the unit in may of 2003 after the first battalion, twentysecond infantry of the first brigade Fourth Infantry Division and we were given orders to occupy the city of tikrit which was the dawns home town. Geography is what put us in the sphere of being involved with the hunt for some dumb. Addam. I had a thousand soldiers under my command. It was a powerful organization with a lot of infantry squad and platoons formed in rival companies and Company Engineers and artillery, it was a very powerful organization that was initially focused on fighting Saddam Husseins army and later we adapted to fighting insurgents in the fairly sizable city that was very much not in favor of us being there. They were very pro saddam unlike other parts of the country. I am often asked to help finger Saddam Hussein and was any reward giving . There was no reward because ultimately even man who fingered him was mohammad but the two people that put us on to this Family Network like a mafia don with Saddam Hussein being the dawn and half a dozen families, was off mad they had suffered greatly under Saddam Hussein, their property had been seized, they were instrumental in giving us the information. It was one of those moments when early on, this was in the timeframe of 2003 and god save you from yourself. I didnt have time to fool with them, didnt want to talk to them and checking security and outposts and they had information they wanted to give it to anyone unless it was me and i thought oh great, here we go more histrionics, whatever. I nearly dismissed him out right. Something in my gut said what if it is something important. For the next 21 2 hours they laid out in great detail on sheets of butcher paper this Collaborative Network of families and i thought this is the most elaborate lie i have ever heard or there has got to be something to some of this and they were instrumental to a lot of our intelligence early on in some of the key raids, one near the netted saddam on the head joy she farm where we got 10 million, many of his family documents, photo albums 2 million worth of jewelry that belong to his wife a lot of different things. These two iraqi business men were instrumental in putting us on that path. Host when was the first time you saw Saddam Hussein . We did not see him until the night he does captured. I did not see him the night he was captured. I think one of the things people dont realize, we may have seen him just didnt realize it. He was ultimately caught was not far from this farm i just mentioned, the other bank of the tigris river, you literally could stand on one bank and lc the other farm. They were visible to one another and could even see his mansion from that location. He didnt go very far. He was protected right there living very humble the, he did not circulate. There were rumors that he was in the area. We got much of that. One of the things we did do was we worked hand in hand with the number of organizations, special Operations Forces in the area at that time. Initially the first team we worked with was focused on specific prewar targeting of key leaders. They left toward the end of may, beginning of june time frame, transition and the new team that came in led by guy i called jack. We worked very closely together on a lot of raids, a lot of intel and limited resources. And even focus, he felt Saddam Hussein he felt Saddam Hussein was likely to be in the area from the flood of reports we were getting. If any unit was going to ultimately find him it had to be through a collaborative effort, both conventional forces and unconventional and that is one of the things a lot of people learn from early on in the work looking at our operations with conventional and unconventional forces as a model for much of what happened later. Congressman russell, you talked about going down in the fighter. What was that like . The hole was not very big. It would be like crawling underneath the tree 6foot folding table in dimension and sitting under it. I am not a big guy. I had to strip off my combat gear to make the clearance of the entrance of it. It was square, had brickwork, it was very in ingeniously joy had a top of was carved to the shape and it had a recess on the top for oil and it actually gave equal to how the ground would feel when you stepped on it and it just formed like a regina and cork on top of a square brick hole and when it was covered up with earth and a foot mat laid on top you could walk across it and never know it was there. It had a light a fan and carpet down there and that was it. He didnt live there. It was just a place to hide. He lives in a three room hunt that was above it. When he was riding where was he writing . The raid it that got him started in a series of events, we had gotten very close but one of the special operations teams we ultimately worked with was a Different Team led by and i called it john team from a different unit that rotated in the october timeframe. We worked closely with him, same relationship. We did a number of simultaneous raids, we learned from the Family Network that because of the inner marriage and the large families, multiple wife, culture, you might have eight to ten firstperson blood relatives that would be a possibility for them to hide it. Ten brothers, there were any number of places for them to hide and much like you would hit one and they would pop up somewhere else and once we learned the Family Network, we try to identify as many locations at once and do half dozen, or eight simultaneously and there was a series of raids we were able to do in the first week of december that were successful in that regard on the fourth of december we did one with johns team and others and we were able to get on the trail even closer, the last public appearance of Saddam Hussein in april of 2003, he shows up in a town square and stand on top of a car being the benevolent dictator, put his arm out, everybody cheering. The guy driving him the guy who gets up on the car as his bodyguard with a pistol in his hand if you look at the iraqi footage april 9th that is muhammed, we know he was related to Saddam Husseins wife and he was a virtual unknown before the war, became the most crucial guy to find and the family was one of the key families throughout the was organizing the resistance. That was often misunderstood, the resistance, many people misinterpreted, there were reporters and others who felt we reusing heavyhanded tactics causing the iraqis to fight back which is a bucket of nonsense. Couldnt get the u. S. Army, prevent us, he knew that would happen. We know from the fbi interviews, and key Republican Guard, special security operators, they would form the insurgency and his strategy was if he created enough casualties and they could get it on tv of we would lose will at home politically and like somalia we would leave and he would make a play for power and they would restore it and that was the plan. Not infeasible but he was the master of miscalculation and he didnt realize how much to the extreme we would take to find it and so by tracking down these families and going after his social networks it put us on a path in rapid succession and ultimately the raid that got him was found, eric maddox was very key and he identified him in a group of captives in baghdad. He was one of the interrogators working with special Operations Forces and fingered him. We were ecstatic, has to know the location. To tikrit and iraq. Colonel hickey immediately, but we likely will have the location of where Saddam Hussein is. And captured Saddam Hussein, was so sophisticated, it was on a sheet of butcher paper with magic markers, john and colonel hickey and brian reid, they begin to draw thing this that became the elements, the elements of what the raids was. Two pharma hats in an orchard on the bank of the tigris river on the east bank across from his birth village they were occupied in tikrit and had responsibility for much of the area but for the raid colonel hickey because he was across the river, this location was across the river he adjusted the forces and the plan was johns team would be reinforced by two other special operations teams and they would hit the specific farmers. His read on troop would meet them on the ground as they came in by little bird helicopters and would link up in the orchard. Prior to is that we would put a court around the orchard so Saddam Hussein had no place to run. Ultimately the hope was we would stay as long as we needed to believing the intel was the best we had and colonel hickey had told us plan on staying three four days. We believe he is in the kerri and we are going to find, not knowing exactly what it was. Information that he was in an underground something or other. We dont know if it was the tunnel, if it was clear what it was, we knew that he was underground. What did that mean . That was kind of a sketchy detail we got through the course of the day but the two farms they did a close reconnaissance area. Iraqis are not good with maps so you had taken to locations. We finally located the orchard in farm areas, had a pretty good idea which one he might be on but it is possible he could be on one or in another. 8 00 all the forces both were seized, the three teams, little bird helicopters in Fourth Infantry Division, and he was an overall command on operation red dawn. Two men tried to flee through the orchard, didnt get very far. John iverson in Central Texas to intercept them and it was his cook and a brother. They didnt come up, they were very reluctant and johns guys try to get from them, they were found on sight. 25 minutes from this initial action, when john went out to the humvee where is he . He is there trust me, brought him to this farm location. Not very big patio area. Three nondescript, the bank of the tigris river was maybe not quite 150 feet from where the calmthe farm was to the edge of the embankment. They pressured him, when he saw i s and his brother there was a little shocked that they were there. So he said where is he . He says he is here. He was very nervous, wanted to get out of their. When they got the other individuals, the patio area two of johns guys pull back, there were bits of robe and dirt, and as they pulled the tub off, they had a grenade ready to toss and turn south that ultimately is where sid dom Saddam Hussein was found. I wont give away all the details but what people misunderstand is the raid was bloodless but the trail getting there was knocked. We lost a lot of good guys and two gals getting to that trail. We had scores wounded and a lot of people, that is the story they dont know. Which was really my motivation for trying to tell our piece of the story. It is from my view there are others that commanded a very units and you gain a real good perspective from a commanders view of the events the unfolded that led to that raid and also the aftermath which very few people are aware of what happened in the aftermath and how deadly it was. Host where is muhammed today . Guest i sent to freedom of information act requests on his location and i was told that he was held in baghdad prisons until 2006 and he was released and the last word i had as of 2011 was he was living in syria. No idea where he is today. Whats ideas on . There are a lot of former baptists fighting under isis banner is lisa didnt tikrit. As a former retired Lieutenant Colonel was it a mistake . Guest it is a cheap shot. I know general garner and others, people said we never should have disbanded the iraqi army. Let me clarify, it disbanded itself. It melt away, we made contact with the last elements in april 2006 to may 1st in the north tikrit military complex where the Republican Guard corps was. Some sharp fights and they completely faded away and disappeared. Many fights we had at the late stage in the game were spotty meaning they were in civilian clothes trying to steal our maury weaponry and get it out of there. We had a couple clashes related to just Republican Guard soldiers trying to make off with weapons from the area. The army disbanded itself. This notion somehow that there was going to the formal surrenders and lines of german troops and some big surrender, that was never even a remote possibility to begin with. How long were you in iraq . Guest for a year 20034. Host what month in 2003 . Guest i got there in a and left in april. Host why do you referred to two of the special oxidize as john and jack . Guest many of these guys are still serving. I dont want to give away their identities. Some i was able to on the conventional side. The folks on the unconventional side have always been respectful to them. They have been respectful to me. The book really tells that relationship between the conventional and unconventional and how we operated together and it wasnt necessarily by design. It was by geography. We worked very well and very close together. Host congressman russell, you recount in we got him a memoir of the hunt and capture of Saddam Hussein but your conversation with paul wolfowitz. What did you tell him . Guest he came to look at the afghan training efforts. Secretary rumsfeld had asked joy we trained the iraqi army. And training the Afghan National army in february of 2002, very early on in the afghan war. And so i was used to dealing with tribes, dealing with vetting when it is hard to that people and all those things so i had an adaptation of a National Plan put down in a microcosm for our area of operations ended became successful quickly. We never had infiltration, and you complain we dont have jobs, what ultimately end ed up happening is the were clamoring to look for Success Stories for this iraqi training effort as part of national policy. We were it. One of the early success sto on that so paul2 early on you have to establish not only military dominance but moral dominance. The most humane thing you can do in war is get it done and you cant do that tying your hands behind your back and playing nice over time thinking that is somehow going to get a solution. We needed troops early on to gain control. I was not only the military commander in charge of the city of tikrit but i was everything, i was there a law and order, cabarrus public works going kept their police force going everything. So you really had to have more troops. When he asked me do you have enough troops, it was a loaded question and it would be an easy like so many to say we got enough troops to do the job, i just said to him clearly it is not a question of do we have enough troops to do our mission it is what mission do you want to get done . Because we have to adjust our mission down by lack of troops. Csi need more troops. We are not doing things because we dont have the troops. I said we definitely need more troops which at the time being a mid level commander kind of between the tactical and operational level, the field commanders it was kind of dismissed, a combat commander had seen quite a bit of action at that time. We were getting a lot of action in iraq. You say he heard it. Any results from that . Guest he appreciated by kantor and said thank you for being open and honest with me and he said i dont always get those frank answers. What came of it i dont know but i know the general was doing what he could as our Division Commander at the Fourth Infantry Division to provide adequate forces but we had what we had. Host after the day that Saddam Hussein was captured where was he taking . Guest that night he was flown by up pilots from a little bird helicopter, he was taken to the water palace in tikrit in the palace complex, that set on the tigris river. Host one of his for ones . Guest it was kind of ironic and special ops team that belonged to john sequestered often barbed wire and he was taken and held there that night by some of the other team members, also came to and that location. They were probably realistically, 75 who knew what had happened. Saddam hussein was held in grades addressee colonel hickey was busy notifying not only the commander but breaking it down. He let the general know almost immediately that we had gotten him. Johns team with the other teams consolidated at the water palace and it was really how do you secure him and get him from there to baghdad and keep it all secret . We as the field commanders were under strict instructions to cut off communications to the extent that we could and await further instructions and to keep it secret because you didnt want a reporter breaking the news and the president not even being notified so when colonel hickey talked to me the night of the raid he said this is going to take some time. The president has got to be notified. It will take some time and i said i understand the importance of it. That is essentials the what happened. There was a big special operations helicopter during the raid that had the field surgeon on board and that was the vehicle that was loaded on and needed an escort as well didnt want to take chances and he was taken to that and flown back to baghdad, spent the first night said he was very chatty and actually wrote a short book about his experience talking to Saddam Hussein that first night, his name was mark. So that was how Saddam Hussein got to baghdad and the next morning after the president had been officially notified and a chain of command had a chance to react to was broken at a press conference the next morning on december 14th. What is this brick over your right shoulder . Guest that is a brick from Saddam Husseins home. He had palaces everywhere. This physical residence, it was in his birth of village, we occupied it very early on in 2003, my soldiers swam in Saddam Husseins full when it had water in it. We all brought home interesting souvenirs from the home. I have some bohemian crystal from the cupboards, now in mrs. Russells cupboards. There were a lot of interesting things. We used as an observation post. Had taken two hits, rearrange the furniture and cabinetry quite a bit inside but it was overengineered and the structures still stood so we stayed there. We didnt want the building to become a shrine to Saddam Hussein later. I ordered it be constructed and proposed have salvage crews come in and taken apart brick by brick and use the material and salvage it out. That is one of the bricks. Every brick in the home was a hand cut piece of italian marble. The wealth in Saddam Husseins personal home was unbelievable. One day as i walked by it was getting late and i knew we were going home before too long, i grabbed one, and there it is. Host when you talk about the crystal what are the rules about taking things out . The rules largely we gave specific instructions to our soldiers anything that was museum related, antiquities, anything like that was hands off. On combatants and enemies you are fighting, different story. We brought back uniforms, i have the uniform of Saddam Husseins, one of only two i am aware of in the country. It is on display at the Oklahoma History center in oklahoma city. I think the other one is on display in florida. I am not aware of any others. I have a lot of other interesting things that they were all related to the people we were fighting and that was certainly true we were fighting Saddam Hussein and his henchman during the hunt. Host we got him a memoir of the hunt and capture of Saddam Hussein is the name of the book. Congressman Steve Russell, republican of oklahoma is the author. What is it like working on the Armed Services committee, working with the military from this side . I never would have imagined i would be doing this, number one. The events surrounding Saddam Husseins hunt and captured literally altered the course of my life as it did many others. I did not ever think that i would be sitting here as a congressman on the house Armed Services committee listening to the secretary of defense for joint chiefs giving us briefings which is interesting but it does give me great insight. For example in the last 48 hours we have had very important briefs on strategy in the middle east or threads around world, it is so easy for me to relate to these discussions, and insight to the situation, it also gives me at very sober mind because no one loves peace more often those of us that have provided it for our country and you dont want to make bad decisions, you dont want people to miss read threats or create new ones but we might have been able to reach out to diplomatically. I take it pretty serious that we have a prepared military and also try to do what is responsible in congress. Steve russell thank you. 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They said it was terrible default on 12 contracts 14 contract everybody was defaulting on every contract in baghdad in 2004 iphone 5, the place was chaos, shipping 12 billion in 100 billion bills hand in the mouth like football so the idea of these kids were singularly bad but the truth of the matter is when you line up their past performance with their competitors the nearest competitor pricewise was 200 million hire someone of the ironies about this whole thing is the government for the first time may be ever was getting a great deal, these kids that ushered them into this great deal, they got caught up in the world wind of the New York Times and different competitors whispering against them. It is through there hasnt been a case like this, it is true these kids were singularly defiant and enrage people in high reaches of Law Enforcement and politics but this is still going on, being done by adults. I read in the book the biggest the reason it broke is they it they had millions of dollars, they were rich, they didnt hire a law firm or lobbyists, they didnt get a general to sit on their board