Will be on oppenheimer to see if it collects the most gongs. Now on bbc news it is time for talking business. Hello, everybody. A very warm welcome to talking Business Weekly with me, aaron hazelhurst. Lets go and take a look at whats on the show. Translation people have been using cannabis for as long as you can remember for millennia. And nothing will stop them, no prohibition. And thats why they should be able to do it safely. Yep. The money in marijuana. Were going to take a look into the Big Business Of Cannabis as germany becomes the latest in a string of countries to legalize its use in the us alone, where 2a states allow its Recreational Use, that market is huge, nearly 40 billion. So im going to be discussing all of that with these two. There they are, the big boss of the body that monitors drugs and Drug Addiction across europe, who tells me theres been a huge rise in cannabis based drugs in recent decades. And a top exec at one of americas biggest cannabis retailers, which Sells Everything from recreational weed to medical marijuana and rakes in half A Billion Dollars a year. Also on the show, i scream, you scream, we all scream for ice cream. It has to be one of the coolest jobs on the planet. The head of haagen dazs ice cream joins me to talk through the indulgence of her frozen flavours. Wherever you joining me from Around The World. Once again, a big hello and a warm welcome to the show. You know, the Cannabis Industry, its a market on a high as more and more countries look to legalize the possession and use of the drug for Recreational Use or to regulate how its used as a medicinal product. Just last month, germany became the latest european country to legislate for personal use or indeed to grow Marijuana Plants at home. So on that note, lets hear from europe in a moment from The Netherlands, where cannabis has been decriminalised for many years. But first, lets jump over to germany. Here in berlin, its pretty common to see people smoking cannabis, particularly in the citys parks, on a sunny day like this. Now, in theory, its illegal to possess the drug or carry it. In reality, police tend to turn a blind eye in many parts of germany, particularly here in berlin, and they go after the dealers instead. So to a certain extent, the law is simply catching up with reality. So that means that people will be allowed to possess and carry and consume for personal use a certain amount of the drug, a limited amount, but it would be very difficult to actually buy the drug. Now, the government says this will eliminate the risk of people consuming contaminated products and that it will mean that people will be able to be educated about the risks of smoking. Critics say it will simply exacerbate the black market and that in other countries with more liberal drug policies, that simply hasnt worked. For more over to my colleague anna in The Netherlands. Well, some countries are relaxing their rules around cannabis. Here in The Netherlands, theyre refining theirs. Im going to take you inside this coffee shop here. Cannabis cafes or coffee shops are popular tourist attractions, but they also play a key role in the pragmatic dutch approach to drug use. Bartenders can sell small amounts to customers over the age of 18, balancing the need for social order and Public Health with fundamental values like tolerance and freedom. There is a legal paradox, though at the heart of this system, its illegal to grow and supply large amounts of cannabis. The coffee shops have to get it from somewhere, and so police are obliged to simply look the other way. However, the government has started an experiment in which they grant Cultivation Licences to a small group of growers. Heres one i visited earlier, and the idea is that if this is successful, it will be rolled out across the country. And these initiatives reflect The Netherlands ongoing effort to refine and evolve its cannabis policy, drawing on decades worth of experience. So there you go. Its a complex situation and of course, its a Balancing Act for governments all Around The World. If you go back to 2012, nowhere in the world had legalised and regulated cannabis for adult Recreational Use. And today you can see countries and jurisdictions on every continent have made that move. So were seeing multiple jurisdictions in north america, in europe, in asia, australia, africa and and Latin America are moving towards these reforms. And nothing was happening ten years ago. 0k. In a moment, well take a look at that huge us Cannabis Market. But first, heres the european numbers. To date, five eu states have introduced or are planning to bring in new laws to regulate the supply of cannabis for Recreational Use. Here they are czechia, germany, luxembourg, malta and The Netherlands and the european Cannabis Market. Its estimated to be worth almost one and a half billion euros every year. But that said, the Environmental Impact of growing cannabis, its considerable. For example, growing 250 Marijuana Plants in a greenhouse could consume up to one million litres of water a year. And while governments are striving to regulate the end use of cannabis, there are still big problems with the supply chain, which often relies heavily on criminal networks. Now much of that information has come from the European Monitoring Centre for drugs and Drug Addiction. So i decided to catch up with its big boss, alexi goodale. A real pleasure having you on the show. And alexi, let me start with this. What are the Current Trends of Cannabis Usage across europe . Lets first talk about illicit cannabis use and then we will come to to the medical use of cannabinoids. So among the general population, we consider that we have 22 million of adults who made use of cannabis last year. And if we look among the young adults between the age range, 15, 30 and 3a years old, we have more or less 15 point. A million of people who have been using. So that group is representing 15 between 50 and 60 of the population that declared having made use of cannabis last year. So we, we have a huge evolution also in the availability on the market. In 2022, the seizures of Resin Cannabis reached the incredible amount of 816 tonnes, while the herbal cannabis seizures, mostly produced on the territory of the eu, reached more or less 260 tons. Well, alexi, let me ask you this. What are the biggest pressures facing National Governments who are trying to chart a path between consumer demand, but also the risk to Public Health . There is a pressure. There is a movement in all the eu member states, more or less with initiatives, proposals to regulate the Cannabis Consumption and to allow for Recreational Use. But we need to put this in balance with the huge increase in drug related violence in europe. Today we speak a lot about cocaine, but the drug related violence that we observe in the last 15, 20 years was driven first by the Cannabis Market in europe. So so any decision that is to be taken needs to consider those different elements and certainly the strong component in the eu policy for Public Health. And aleksey, looking at the recreational side, looking at all those jurisdictions where its just becoming much more widespread and open, why is that happening Around The World . Because im just wondering, is it to, well, control the drug dealers, the drug trafficking, or is it all about money . Partly its driven about money. When you have investors in Colorado State that have put on the table more than 10 billion, you dont imagine they are making this investment to lose money. So there is a financial driver. And as you know, alexi, some will say one of the problems with the eu is that were talking about a really diverse mix of countries with big policy differences. So how do differing Cannabis Laws affect cross border trade and, of course, enforcement . Well, again, thats a very interesting question. For many, many years, there was a total exclusion of any possibility of discussion about the potential medical use for some of those illicit substances. There is an evolution. There is a very interesting change. The recent, i would say, five to ten years, including in the European Union. You can see it when we talk about cannabis use for medical purposes. We need robust research, not on not only prohibition. So so here the point is giving the support to more research to understand better what are the medical the possible medical use. When we speak about drugs, we need to keep in mind that its not brussels deciding on everything. One illustration is the recent decision of germany to regulate or to start regulating the Cannabis Market. And i think if we manage to help dissociate the what is the potential medical use from the Recreational Use, i think my guess as a scientist or a specialist is that maybe it would facilitate the debate. Because the confusion that is maintained between medical use or legalisation or regulation means that for those who are more afraid, for instance, they would not even consider the medical use of cannabinoids when we know that there is some evidence. Now, its not the magic substance that solves everything. So here we talk about facts, we talk about science, we talk about evaluation. But there is a room for that also in europe. What about the criminal sector . How big of an industry . Alexy is that . And of course, how do european governments deal with that threat . Well, the criminal sector is its it is estimated that between 35 and 50 of the income of Criminal Organisation is provided by Drug Production and drug trafficking. And when i say that, of course, i dont talk only about cannabis, but also cocaine, heroin in the recent ten to 15 years because of 911, because of the situation with daesh in syria and so on, the fight against the Criminal Organisation has not received the same priority also because the resources are limited. And aleksey, let me end on this today. You are the European Monitoring Centre for drugs and Drug Addiction. But comejuly, youre going to be rebranded to the European Union drugs agency, and thats going to bring additional power. So i have to ask you, will they be the powers that that you need to tackle all of these challenges . The power will allow us to to support for all the main edges, both in the terms of anticipation, the emergence of new problems in the future, building stronger alert systems, namely establishing a European Drug alert system for all drugs. Harm reduction, as we talked about this ten or 15 or 20 years ago is not the same today or tomorrow. So our capacity as the new agency is to help to push, to support the member states, to make a new analysis of the risks and of the harm and to build the new responses. Well, on that point, alexi goodale, a real pleasure having you on the show. Thanks for your time and well talk to you again soon. Thank you, aaron. Ok, so thats the view from europe. But the situation is much more advanced in north america. Its a huge and lucrative market in canada, the first leading economy to legalise or regulate the entire industry. However, it is a mixed picture in the United States. Its still illegal for Recreational Use in most states, but despite that, Legal Cannabis is estimated to rake in this year alone, over 38 billion of sales. Thats three times the entire European Market. So i caught up with a top exec at one of americas biggest players. Its the Cannabis Company which grows manufacturers manufactures and retails cannabis products in 16 states. It claims the biggest us footprint outside of florida. Jesse shannon, really great to have you with us. And jesse, let me start with this. How has the Cannabis Landscape in the United States change in the recent years . Because im kind of wondering how thats affected your marketplace. Its a great question. So its been an incredibly dynamic last four or five years in the us, weve seen a number of states not only emerge and join the medical programme but ultimately convert to adult use and recreational sales. That means an incredible change in the accessibility to the marketplace for consumers across the country. It also means a tonne of innovation with regards to products, forms, formulations, a continued focus obviously on outcome based products for our medical patients, but also a lot of great high quality products to continue to convert legacy consumers into safe and tested product across the country. And jesse, i have to ask you, how do you reassure your customers and the wider public that that you can be trusted on on the safety of your products . We abide by, obviously, a pretty stringent Regulatory Environment that all of the Operating Organizations in the us do. We also have implemented a number of Technology Solutions and frameworks that track seed to sale, provide an enormous amount of transparency and compliance. Candidly, as an industry, i think were still developing were still investing into more ways not only to ensure the safety of those products, but to provide transparency and education to consumers and patients that show that supply chain. But how do you convince and assure your customers that you wont prioritize profits over Public Health . We work in an incredibly monitored, incredibly stringent regulatory framework. So i think consumers can take a lot of confidence in the systems that are in place to protect them. But for ourselves, its its part of our mission, vision and values this. And wejoke around all the time. People ask us, you know, is cannabis going to be 100 billion plus industry . And the truth is, it already is. Its only only 30 some odd billion if its being sold legally. The rest of the data is ultimately making its way through these grey market, black market, or sort of illicit infrastructures until we can see continued expansion, which we are seeing across the country, and access to more canopy and to more manufacturing throughput, thats when you ultimately will see the cost for the safe and tested products come down to, if not below, where the Illicit Market is. And then i think youre looking at something very similar to what we saw with the end of prohibition of alcohol in this country, where at some point people arent buying bathtub gin any more. Itsjust easier to go to a liquor store and get a bottle of gin or buy a bottle of whiskey or wine or whatever it may be. Jesse, is it difficult to navigate the company through the regulatory challenges and the changes in the Cannabis Industry . Because im wondering, again, how do you do that . Its very difficult. We have a team of incredibly bright people that work on that across the country. I always joke around that being a Multistate Operator in the us is really almost like operating a Multinational Organisation inside of the country because every state has nuance and some differences to the frameworks of their regulatory and compliance, the systems that they may leverage all the way through, even the infrastructure that we have to use when it comes to either retail or cultivation or manufacturing. And Jesse Separating out Medicinal Cannabis with recreational cannabis, i mean, you serve both markets. So which market makes you the most money . Which is which is the most profitable . We dont release any state by State Numbers or individual profitability at this time. I think its no secret when you look at those markets, that early medical markets where you have a limited number of compliant partners in that regulatory framework. So limited number of operators are usually highly profitable. Theres a large demand immediately and a small number of people to serve that demand. So for us, if you look at the us right now, a market like virginia probably jumps to the top of the list. Thats a very sort of buzzy market that everyone� s talking about right now. Were obviously the largest participant in