Information ok. And and ultimately the Vice President went to canada for a u. S. M. C. I. Event thats right during this. This window of time correct correct so its entirely conceivable that the president decided that he wanted the Vice President to go to canada on behalf of u. S. M. C. A. Instead of doing anything else correct im really not a position to speculate what the motivations were behind the president s decision you know the various president s and quite a bit of us m. C. A. Events correctly yesterday and are you aware of whether the. Any one of the state department inquired with your office about the Vice President s availability for the trip to canada for the trip at what point. Early may may be may 8th. I i was on volved in the trip planning for canada and one of my colleagues who covers western hemisphere was in charge of that song not aware of specific ok requests about the Vice President s bill dudley i was aware from my colleague who is planning the trip that we had competing trips potentially for their window but i was told that the ukraine trip would take priority ok but ultimately you dont now i dont know about the canada trip or you dont know the reason as to why the Vice President was sent to canada for a us m. C. A. Event stead of going to the ukraine i would say i dont know the reason behind why the president directed the Vice President not to go to ukraine i cant speak to the motivations or the about the candidates have. Heard of inman id like to turn a little bit to the july 10th meeting. In a basket or boltons office and the subsequent. Proposed meeting in the wardroom. Who was in the joint 10th meeting thats your recollection we were talking about the boardroom are we talking about the actual meeting with about her bone i will start with the 1st meeting in the ambassadors office so from the u. S. Side we had about for bolton dr hill. I believe there was another special assistant to the president griffin was in there for mark and myself from the ukraine the ukrainians im sorry for the ukrainian side we had. I was under dont you look. Under your mark. And i think Alexander Downer looks. Advisor alexis to many ok and you testified that you couldnt recall exactly why. Ambassador bolton stopped the meeting short newly learned it subsequently talking to dr fiona hill and i noted that you know it ended abruptly but i didnt frankly you know i didnt exactly know why and in then in the bolton meeting you dont remember im back there isnt one using the word biden he did not it was for the best American Action errol that you did and then the decamped to take a photo correct correct ok so the general feeling of the group was a positive one at that time even though it may have ended abruptly i think i am basser bolton. Was exceptionally qualified and he understood the the. Strategic Communications Opportunity of having a photo and we prompted him to just to before we completely adjourned to see if he was going to do a photo and he did they see one out the west executive ever wherever in the white house you took a photo i think you said you took it i certainly took a couple of yes ok and in that photo is secretary perry ambassador bolton and basher volcker thats right and mr dunne you look and mr jamar yes and i apologize when i was running through the u. S. Side or of course ambassador bolton. Volcker and someone were there and secretary perry was there ok. Now you testified that before the july 10th meeting you had developed concerns about the narrative you know involving Rudy Giuliani is that correct that is correct and had you heard a firsthand account from anyone on the inside or just been following news accounts so i you certainly was following the news accounts and thats from the ukrainian side ukrainian press and us press and then my colleagues in the inner agency. Also were concerned about this as this had started in the march timeframe kind of emanating from the john solomon story all the way through so we theres been ongoing conversation so several different sources. And so when risers on the mentioned investigations you the you sort of had a little bit of a clue of what the issue was oh definitely ok and then you took the photo a very nice photo and then you went to the wardroom correct and you remember i think you can see to do as the you know hard time remembering exactly. What was said in the world again its 4 months ago its hard to be precise about whether its on. What specific words he used whether used barisan or 2016 investigations is it so i believe its in the deposition i 3 elements birds in the bidens and the 2016 elections were all mentioned in the order correct. You know and i think you know you i think then we can maybe go back to this but i think on page 64 of your testimony you told us that you dont remember him using 2016 in order. That i believe that i actually followed up and. When you because this question was asked multiple times i said that all 3 elements were in there so ok so it does only ask the question it sort of refresh your recollection yes i guess thats a term no. There was. Some discussion of you know whether when mr marson took over the portfolio for dr hill. Whether you were sidelined at all did you feel like you were so i certainly. Was excluded or didnt participate in the their trip to ukraine moldova belarus at the end of. August and i wasn and italy before change from a stripped of Vice President trip to warsaw i wasnt participating in that one so. I didnt didnt miss that you know did you express any concerns to mr marson about why you werent included on those trips so mr morrison i was on leave to be on leave from the 3rd of august through about the 16th or so of august and he called me and asked me to return there or there was obviously. I purdy travel to the region he needed my assistance to help plan for it and in asking me to return early from leave which i take infrequently i soon that id be gone on the trip so when i was after returning from leave early when i was told i wasnt going i inquired about it correct ok and what feedback to give you. He initially told me that the aircraft that was acquired the miller was too small and that was enough for him. Had you ever had any discussions with mr marson about concerns that he or dr hill had with you or your judgment did i ever have any conversations with mr marson about you know ok. Did mr marson ever express concerns to you that he thought maybe you werent following the chain of command in all instances he did not and. Did dr hill or mr marson ever. Ask you questions about whether you were trying to access information outside of your lane they did not. And. Another you know aspect of the ukraine portfolio that you were not a part of or some of the Communications Mr marson was having with ambassador taylor correct and did you ever express concern that he was leaving you off those calls. Well certainly it was concerning he had just come on board he didnt have the you know he was in steeped in all the items that we were working on including the policy that we had developed over the preceding months. And i thought i could contribute to that too is the performance of his duties ok when you were you went to ukraine for the inauguration correct i have and any point during that trip did mr downey look offer you a position of defense minister with Ukrainian Government he did and how many times that he did it i believe it was 3 times and give any reason why he asked you to do that i dont know but every single time i dismissed it upon returning i notified my chain of command and the the appropriate counterintelligence folks about this offer the ukraine is a country that experience so a war with russia certainly their minister of defense is a pretty key position you know for the ukrainians president selenski mr downey look to bestow that honor on your lease asking you i mean it that was a big honor correct i think it would be a great honor and frankly im aware of Service Members that have left service to help. Nurture the developing democracies in that part of the world certainly in the baltics former officers under fire recall correctly as an air force officer that became minister of defense but im an american i came here when i was a toddler and i immediately dismissed these offers if not entertain them. When when he when he made this offer to you an initially did you leave the door open was the reason a that he had to come back and ask it a 2nd a 3rd time or is he just trying to convention counsel you know its the whole notion is rather comical that i was being asked to consider whether id want to be the minister of defense i did not leave the door open at all ok but it is pretty funny for Lieutenant Colonel the United States army which really isnt that not that senior to be offered. Illustrious a position when he made this offer to you was he speaking in english or ukrainian. Mr dont you look is a absolutely flawless in English Speakers speaking in english ok and i and just to be clear there are 2 other Staff Officers embassy Staff Officers that were sitting next to me when this offer was no day and who are they. So one of them that you may have met it was. Mr david holmes and the other one was. I dont know i mean i guess i could its another Foreign Service officer keith bean ok if we met mr holmes last friday evening i understand. The lights will fall. And you said when you returned to the United States yes. Your paper got up given your you know with sci clearance whenever a Foreign Government makes an overture like that you have to paper it up and you tell your chain of command i did but i also dont know if i fully entertained it as a legitimate offer i was just making sure that i did the right thing in terms of reporting yes ok and did any of your supervisors dr hill at the time or or dr copperman or about your bold never ever follow up with you about that its rather significant you know the ukrainians offered you the post of defense minister. You know did you tell anyone in your chain of command about it after i spoke to and i believe it was the deputy our deputy senior director john earth was there i spoke once i mentioned it to both of them i dont believe there was ever a follow up discussion ok so never came up with dr government or dr Health Following that conversation i had with dr hill i dont believe there was a subsequent conversation and i dont recall ever having a conversation with dr compliment about it ok and did you brief dr or director marcy when he came on board no i completely forgot about it ok and subsequent to the major did mr downey look ever ask you to reconsider are there any other offers no when he visited for the july 10th meeting and with ambassador bolton did it come up again it never came up again ok and did you ever think that it possibly if this information was you know got out that it might create the at least a perception of a conflict that ukrainians thought so highly of you offer you the Defense Ministry post. You know one hand but on the other hand youre responsible for ukrainian policy at the National Security council so frankly its more important about what my my American LeadershipAmerica American chain of command thinks than any. Of the and this is. These are honorable people im not sure if you meant it as a joke or not but its much more important what my civilian white house National SecurityCouncil Chain of command thinks more so than anybody else and frankly if they were concerned about me being able to continue my duties they would have they would have brought that to my attention dr hill. Stayed on for several months and we could continue to work to advance us all seem ok. During the did the times relevant of the committees investigation did you have any communications with the mr yamaka were going to look outside of the july 10th i think i recall a courtesy no from mr your mock within days of his return to july in which he wanted to preserve it open Channel Communication and i said you know please please feel free to contact me with any concerns and were you following this. You know theres sort of 2 tracks of asser taylor walked us through it during his testimony last wednesday there was a he called it a regular channel and then he called it an irregular but not outlandish channel with ambassador simon ambassador volker retracking the son and volcker channel during his time period so im trying to recall which point i became aware of ambassador certainly i was aware of the fact that they were. They were working together some than besar silent about sort of volcker and secretary perry working together to advance u. S. Policy interests that were in support of what had been agreed to but i didnt really learn like i said until the july 10th. Actually thats there may may have been a slightly earlier point i recall a meeting in which a master bolton facilitated a meeting because between ambassador volcker and about her both in the june timeframe and there may have been some discussion about this external channel but ok i frankly didnt become aware of these particular Us Government officials being involved in this alternate track until on july 10th ok i think we had some discussion that you know mr giuliani was promoting a negative narrative about the ukraine and and certain officials were trying to help the president understand that with the lenski it was a new day and ukraine going to be different so your understanding that is corrected that is exactly what was being reported by the Intelligence Community by the policy channels within the nessie and the conservative voices of the various people that ive actually met with him including foreign officials and stented youre aware of what ambassador. You know son ones goals were here an ambassador volckers goals were you think they were just trying to do the best they could in and try to advocate in the best interest the United States that if that is that is what i believe you and i that is what i still believe frankly and so to the extent mr giuliani may have had differing views they were trying to help him understand that. It was time to change those use i think they were trying to. Bring him in into the tent and have him kind of support the direction that was that we had settled on and. You never conferred with mr giuliani now you never had any meetings phone calls or anything of that sort i did not and did you have any only known as new yorks finest mayor americas mayor americas mayor. And did you have any discussions communications during this relevant time period with the president. I dont ive never had any contact with the president again states i times expired mr chairman thank you thanks john and were going to move to the 5 minute member rounds are you good to go forward or do you need a break i think oh well like to take a short break ok lets try to take a 5 or 10 minute break and we will resume with a 5 minute rounds. If i could ask. The audience and members to please allow the witnesses to leave the room 1st. It is a resort youve been watching live pictures from capitol hill in washington d. C. Where public impeachment hearings against the u. S. President is underway dont trump is accused of pushing ukraine into digging up dirt on his political rival joe biden now those testifying include Jennifer WilliamsForeign Service i had to Vice President mike pence and she listened in to president Donald Trumps ukraine phone call she said it struck her as inappropriate also testifying alongside her is colonel alexander then men he was also listening in on the phone call at the center of the inquiry and what weve been hearing of course is the concerns that both of those people have raised as a result of that telephone call both of talked about it being unusual and inappropriate colonel vinh men said that he reported the call they in to the white house now theres also been concerned raised by colonel vin about what he saw as potential influence on american ukraine policy he said he was concerned that they could have been a break in bipartisanship with that policy which may have encouraged russian aggression against ukraine. They were just about to go to to our correspondents in washington d. C. I think kimberly help that will be joining us and Heidi Jo Castro as well how to join might be a viable force right now yes shes joining us live from capitol hill i just want to get your thoughts on what weve been hearing 2 words jump out at me from both weve heard improper and also unusual take us through what weve heard. Thats right these 2 witnesses both National Security experts on ukraine corroborated each other and assessing when where they heard this phone call in full between trump and zelinsky they both thought it was improper and alexander then meant he was so concerned that he immediately. Made a report about it to his National SecurityCouncil Attorney he thought it was a political call in nature thats exactly what Jennifer Williams the Vice President s National Security advisor on ukraine said she thought as well but you know sam theres another part that jumped out at me which was the republican ranking members attempt to out the identity or more information at least about the whistleblower yeah if you listen to that part of a new naz wa