now joining us on the communicators, jeff moss. how and why did black hat begin? jeff: it began more than 20 years ago. i operate a convention, def con, the world s largest hacking convention. this was a time when there were no jobs for any of us. the only people doing security were maybe people in the military and banks. as the internet grew and there were jobs, and there is money at risk, all of a sudden hackers started getting jobs doing security. i kept getting emails, give me an announcement to def con to make it sound professional. i was rewriting our announcements to make them sound corporate. one of my friends said you know what, throw a real conference. charge real money. make it professional. i thought it was brilliant. i was too young. i save my money for a year. then i started black cat a year later. every year it has grown for 20 years. host: what is the difference between black hat and devcon? def con. jeff: you happen info sec job. you are working for gener