Any e. Casey Foundation. Will come back from your weekend so before her like she's me after we just had to do this show. About a certain aspect of the gun policy debate in America this morning. The news kind of coughed up a little bit more data for us this is a c.d.c. Report basically says that there's been an uptick in deaths from both homicide and suicide by firearm it's if you read the report it's actually kind of the did did is actually kind of noisy and it's a little bit difficult to tell whether this is a statistical aberration or a really bad trend I mean it's not good no matter what but basically that these numbers had been in decline for about a decade and they've popped back up and they want to see that it is going to noisy to see if this is not a really kind of you kind of want to see a little bit more of a solid line from location to location that's really not exactly where the data works but no matter what it's not good and death by gun is obviously the Line of Death by a gun has essentially crossed the line of death by car by car trying life is going down. Death by gun doing the other thing so it's none of it's good and I'll just say one more thing before we get going which is that as somebody covering politics as I watched this election unfold I really did become convinced that guns were an undocumented issue they were aware they were a much more important issue in this past election least around here I'm not an expert in everywhere else but I can actually point to a couple of state senate elections which I think may have tipped on the issue of guns although it did get told about it and got to come up in debates that much but we live in an era where moms and dads are scared every day when they bring their kids to the school bus and where kids and teachers go through lockdown drills I was just a very uncomfortable part of their permanent realities and that has got to weigh on people and then you got you got tree of life you. 1000 Oaks you get these stories that happen so much there's almost no way to process them so what happened was that the American College of Physicians came out with a very comprehensive report there are a comprehensive set of recommendations and roughly about 8 or 9 days ago a kind of argument broke out on social media where most arguments break out and the n.r.a. Responded to this set of recommendations from the American College of Physicians with a kind of taunting tweet there was a picture of kind of a nerdy goofy looking medical researcher I guess that's who that was supposed to be and then there was this whole sort of stay in was one of the exact wording Someone should tell self-important anti-gun doctors to stay in their lane how full of the articles in the Annals of Internal Medicine are pushing for gun control most upsetting However the medical community seems to have consulted no one but themselves and the response to this was a pretty ferocious tweet storm doctors talking about what it meant to stay in their lanes that their lanes in fact were full of gunshot victims that their lanes were full of digging out bullets from the vicinity of hearts that's what their lane was like and they were staying in their lane but they were unhappy about what else they were finding out there a way and I hope I'm summarizing that anyway we thought we would have a longer version of that conversation Dr Heather shares joining us a radiologist from North Broward radiologist in Florida Dr Richard Sidwell is joining us a trauma surgeon at the Iowa clinic in Iowa and one of the co authors of the recommendations put out by the firearm strategy team which is a work group of the American College of Surgeons this is a different report from the one I was just talking about from their committee on trauma and in studio a regular guest with us Dr Harold Hank shorts psychiatrist in chief emeritus now at heart for hospitals Institute of living and professor of psychiatry at the Yukon School of Medicine. Because the south obviously a mental health and psychiatric dimension as well but Dr Heather sure I'm going to begin with you and 1st of all ask if I summarized. The initial flurry anyway of communications between the n.r.a. And the world of people who care for trauma victims is that kind of the way it unfolded least to your reckoning Yeah that's it or that's what's started this latest round of doctors engaging in the debate about gun violence and wanting to address the public health issue. Was the n.r.a. Streets. Saying the doctor should stay in their lanes it's really it's funny the dichotomy you look at the picture you have kind of this. Doctor that looks like Doc Brown or something come out at the back to the future he looks like he's reading like Galileo in the picture on the tweet where they challenge doctors to stay in their lanes and then very shortly after that Dr responded by posting pictures of you know what it means to care for a trauma patient what the what our reality is and you know there's no one who's more in Merced and it's more intimately associated with the toll of gun violence in our society than physicians right now so Dr Rick said Well you're very close to this issue by dint of having worked on this report but I'm guessing that the way it unfolded on social media is not a good place to have some kind of reasonable debate about a complex issue about which people already feel quite impassioned I'm guessing this isn't probably the way that you wanted this debate to take place. In Collin 1st thanks for having me and Heather and Hank thanks for being here these are these are important conversations. The whole Twitter thing that. I was not necessary I was unfortunate because really the report the report of recommendations or policy statement from the. You know that has some stuff in there that is legitimate items for for discussion and you may agree with that or you may not agree with it and then the n.r.a. Put their their editorial that they wrote actually was a reasoned response that. I had some arguments against the positions that were being advocated by the. But anyway that it was the way of introducing that report. Of the stay in your lane. Anti-gun doctors having you know curious hobby except for a it was so. Demeaning and it just it highlights to me it highlights to me that a complex issue like this a gun and I like the way that you say it of gun policy not gun control debate. This type of a conversation you can't do it 140 or 280 characters at a time on Twitter. And so my real guess is that. The very policy that the editorial that the n.r.a. Was. Promoting through that through the tweet my guess is that most folks didn't actually read the editorial because the tweet that selfless. If you will write so. Hank I know that you regard this. The lane that's being talked about as a legitimate lane for people who are practicing internal medicine or trauma surgery or psychiatry I was a psychiatrist what has this debate what what has this set of policy questions meant to you mean what's the what's uppermost in your mind I guess well. You know the trauma surgeons and other physicians in the or dealing every day with the horrendous physical outcomes of all of this gun violence and psychiatrists are dealing with I guess a somewhat less dramatic portion of the spectrum of harm but one that is daily repeated in our offices in our emergency rooms and in our hospitals and that is the impact especially on children living in unsafe communities having unsafe experiences and experiencing all of the trauma that would naturally flow from that. And there are the elements of trauma and then there are the long long term consequences that lead to school failure to aggression and violent acting out of the children themselves and just a repetition of the of the cycle of violence and psychiatrists see it as as well as surgeons and internists and we all very much are in that. You know Rick I want to ask you Heather both about this so when I go to see my primary care physician I think we stop having this conversation but when I go in for a checkup you know he says you're on a bike right you wear a helmet kind of thing I think once or twice you said is there a gun in the House and the answer is no and so we kind of stop there but I mean I would imagine there's sort of a protocol of questions you know how is it Storer who has access to you know what have you thought about wrists and stuff like that but one of the things that the report talked about was the issue of physician gag laws there are physician God laws I think of at least 13 states that actually attempt to prohibit physicians from asking that kind of question what's what's your thought about that. Tackle that one then you know. My general opinion is that the. That is that the government doesn't belong. In that deep of detail in the doctor to patient relationship Ok so that's my general opinion as a as a physician Now that said I understand where some of the concern comes from and it is one thing for a physician to. Be talking with patient about legitimate. Health issues and then it's another thing for physician to be. Interjecting. Personal bias. And whatnot and so that's where the line has to be walk and then Truly that's that's a position thing and that's a learning thing that doctors need to learn through medical school and need to learn through their. You know through their mentors it's not something that that in my opinion that government needs to be involved in that depth of. The doctor patient relationship there's and that's a debate that can occur within the profession but probably not government talking to the profession that's general header you may have different different opinion and that if I thought that that's my thought well how do you live in a state that has probably the toughest and most or notorious such a position God rules and I know they've been litigated so tell us about well let me take a step back for let me just let me just put this in perspective where I think doctors belong in this discussion with patients so in the u.s. In 2016 we had 15000 deaths in this country from home aside gun related and $24000.00 from suicide Ok so gun violence is a huge under all of problems 60 percent of gun deaths are suicide I think about that and in the homicide umbrella we have different we have domestic violence is a big player drug and alcohol field fuel feuds substance abuse comes into play. You know crime related that's another category in the 3rd category which is very small it's a couple 100 deaths a year but that's unintentional shootings. And that's where. You know this started with doctors asking patients about guns it was you know I largely the pediatricians in Florida in terms of their screen you know asking if they were choking hazards in the house the bleach bottle to put away if there is a pool fence they would ask parents if there were if there were guns in the home because it's been shown that guidance and counseling patients on safe storage of guns prevents gun related deaths and injury in children. The other context physicians may ask about guns in the context of dimentia all timers you know were accidental gun deaths in a car so I don't think so this is they're just making small talk about guns I think that you know they're it's in the course of their relative health interview in terms of trying to prevent death and injury percipient pediatricians you know Hank I'm guessing that if I'd said that I had a gun my doctor well I don't know what he would have said but let's just say but you might have said well you know it you get depressed on dive I've been treating you for 25 years you know you get depressed you should understand that having a gun in the house you know may not be the best thing for you on those occasions in which you're sort of feeling like life doesn't mean anything I make I'm exact little bit for the conversation but I would assume that's a legitimate that you would think that that's a legitimate conversation or a position to be having with me when when you're working with a depressed patient finding out whether there's a gun in the home is actually a critical part of the assessment and to fail to do that is to be practicing outside of the standard of care you know 50 to 70 percent depending on the study of adults who have committed suicide have seen their primary care doc in the 30 days prior to this suicide event so imagine if primary care doctors because well you know depression and suicide that's just a matter for the psychiatrists and if something serious really starts to happen fell away from ever inquiring when a depressed patient appeared to them as to whether a gun was was in the home you know the presence of the gun in the home is one of the most dangerous environmental factors in the completion of suicide in the evidence that the gun and what's the follow up question as to whether there's a gun in the home a might be that it should be removed but certainly it should be that it's locked in a place where one. Not reach it impulsively and so many suicides occur within an impulsive 10 minutes of the 1st suicidal thoughts so appropriate storage of the gun removal of guns in homes where there are suicidal folks are really critical and that is that that's just an absolute part and parcel of psychiatric evaluations and care although so. Your relationship with guns is going to be a little bit different from probably Hanks and Heather's and a lot of the conversation we're having has a philosophical underpinning to it right what are guns are they are fundamentally unsafe consumer products that you should really worry about if you have in the home or are they sort of an article of American life that can be used for both good and bad there's certainly a lot of people who want to have guns who don't want to have them in places where they've got to do a combination lock and maybe do so got a number cut on the handgrip because they think they have them in the home for personal defense so I don't know I mean maybe react to this that it's Ok to say you're a gun owner right I am yes we own firearms I have them at my house and and full disclosure I'm I am a member of the n.r.a. And I make no apology for that it's those positions aren't mutually exclusive though so if you can be a responsible gun owner you can be a member of the n.r.a. And you can still be and favor. Things that we can do that may. I or arms as safe as reasonably possible and cut down on the the. Preventable injuries and deaths associated with with firearms. Well anyway you know well maybe you can just a little bit more about the the team that you are are you you this is this is the American College of Surgeons this was our trauma report on guns how was it did seem radically different things from what the c.p. Reports well can call and you might have to back up just a little bit because you mentioned you mentioned just some of the different narratives. And I think that that's important for everybody to understand is that that really there are 2 dominant narrative. Held by the American people and one narrative is that. Firearms are generally harmful generally unnecessary in our civil life and that by the presence of firearms actually decrease personal liberty because of increase harm and so people who subscribe to that narrative see the term gun control as violence control. There's another completely opposite narrative that people subscribe to where firearms are considered generally beneficial and in fact are necessary for personal protection and safety and that it's a constitutionally protected right. And so people who subscribe to this narrative see firearms as emblematic of freedom and so the term gun control translates to freedom control. With these 2 broad narratives and the more that one side attacks the other side the more it makes people entrenched into their own beliefs. What actually doesn't get talked about is that there's a big middle ground that that that people agree upon and in general people can agree that. Liberties are protected by the Constitution. That violence is a major cause of preventable death and suffering and that working together. We can do a better job of understanding and addressing the underlies underlying causes of violence and that working together we can make firearm ownership as as safe as possible Rick isn't the middle ground bigger than that I mean I don't know there's a middle ground or not 6 in 10 people in exit polls in the last election said they they want more gun control they want stronger gun control and certainly when you poll on background checks on making background checks more pervasive tightening loopholes and softly that you get way over 6 in 10 that that's a consensus are them all those pushback tends to come from the n.r.a. To argue just a little bit consensus isn't the same as. Compromise and consensus isn't the same as majority consensus means everybody that's consensus and so 60 percent one way or another that's a majority right and I'm doing background checks you can get way higher than 60 percent so. It's with it's it's with this idea that there is a common middle ground that where where where there's some broad agreement about principles it was with those with that foundation that then our our work or of our work group is. Made up of 22 members of the American College of Surgeons Committee on trauma. 18 of the members are not only surgeons but are firearm owners. And the idea with this whole thing was that firearm owners need to be part of the solution because all too often firearm owners are seen as part of the problem rather than the solution and so we were cast with with water what are some recommendations that can be consensus recommendations meaning we all agree as firearm owners we agree. That can be made and said that was the where this workgroup came from. Our recommendations are there are some similarities. Some overlap with the. Position statement that was put out by the c.p. That started the whole stay in your lane thing. So there's some overlap that's there. With them that's about that's the background All right so I'm just rhythms going to bog this conversation through that grab a quick break we'll come back with more of Hank and Heather and Rick after this. My glass this week on This American Life one of the people who works here at the radio show a scientist by training thinks that there is no such thing as free will so I would say he decided do a story for a show about that he would say he had no choice Adam's neurons inside him turned cherub like pieces of a machine and give with a command. This week. Hope you can join us tonight at 9. Coming soon the winners of the 23rd coast competition. 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So we're back we're talking about the in medical establishments a response to critical issues of gun policy with Dr Heather Cher radiologist North Broward radiologist in Florida Dr Rick Sidwell trauma surgeon at the I would clinic in Iowa Dr Hank Schwartz psychiatry's chief in chief America's at her for hospitals Institute of living so Hank this is the thing that you wrote about quite recently in The Hartford Courant I feel as though when Sandy Hook happened as a journalist. Even though I was and I didn't go down there I didn't see the bodies come out or anything like that but just like staying on the air all day talking about uncovering it for days and days afterwards it really kind of scarred me it was a really traumatic thing to just have those ideas and images in my mind so much so that when the Boston Marathon bombing happened not too long after that I actually had kind of a panic our attack in the hallway out here I don't know if I could do this again but there's a way in which we may be becoming inured you talk about massacre fatigue you know we had tree of life and then we have 1000 Oaks some kind of threshold I think was also crossed in the sense that several of the people who survived 1000 Oaks had survived Las Vegas you are now living in a country where you can survive directly survive as a participant more than one gun massacre so I don't know as a clinician What do you make of that well you know I think that it's interesting to note that when 1000 Oaks happened it seemed as if it fell off the the news cycle it fell off the front pages just a little bit quicker actually considerably quicker than the massacre that just had immediately preceded it which was of course the Tree of Life in Pittsburgh and I found myself wondering how that could happen and at the same time I found myself wondering 1000 Oaks happened how can we possibly pay attention to what has just happened when we're still reeling from what happened 11 days ago. And I think what you're describing the traumatization that you experienced covering this as a journalist which is a kind of vicarious traumatization as is happening within the news media I think it's happening actually to all of us you know when Sandy Hook happened it was riveting there had been prior horrible massacres Virginia Tech of course in Columbine but it was possible then to look back all the way to the Charles Whitman Texas Tamela shooting and conceptualize the whole course of events that had gone from from Texas to Sandy Hook. Sensing in the hook it has become impossible. The one incident occurring so rapidly upon another you know I write about massacre fatigue it's a kind of compassion fatigue it said a gradual erosion of our ability to stay engaged to to hear the names once again too big to be as a motion only invested and engaged in what has happened as we were in and the last one or where the one before I think it impacts you as a journalist and other journalists it impacts the physicians and clinicians who have to care for people after these disasters and it's impacting us as a society as we all do become some want and yours one of the really dangerous things that's happening though is that as we become inured I believe that people who are on the edge people who are on the precipice are just becoming more and more disinhibited there is you know the press calls it a copycat phenomenon I think of it as a kind of of dissent have Bishan in which the social norms just change and it becomes more normal to be able to act out in this horrendously violent way so we have these kind of 2 competing or contrasting trends in which we can keep up with it less and less but those who may be more likely to engage in violence are probably their predisposition is is just enhanced. I call this the the distance of Bishan of the disturbed So Dr Heather share your group of people your tribe serves as a radiologist emergency room doctors and nurses let's say nurses too they really they chimed in I was part of this debate that was going on and I think maybe one of the good things about our kind of flame war on. Whether there can be a good thing about it is that you reminded the rest of us this is something that you guys can never get in your to it is so direct and so visceral what you see on a regular basis maybe you can see a little bit more about that. Yeah I mean I've been my own my whole career a level one trauma center and handgun injuries are as routine as enough to spreading butter medicine and United States that's not the case in other countries and America mass shootings really strike fear in the heart of every American it's what gets people's attention but that's a very small fraction of what we see on a day to day basis most of it doesn't even make the news. I cared for patients after the massacre at the Fort Lauderdale Airport which was a handgun. Massacre basically what the weapon he had and then also in the wake of Parkland where the gunman had an assault rifle they were both they were both horrific and you know you meet the patients you meet the families and you're part of the community that suffers after these instances after the Parkland you know our whole community all of south Florida is really terrorized. By what happens you know the societal tolls tremendous from from the mass shootings there are like acts of terror. You know Rick I was teaching college undergraduates at the time of Parklane which I had there just mentioned and one of the things I could tell in this group of students that the response from the Parklane students was going to be kind of a major event in there these college students live large because they hadn't seen members of their own generation sort of come forward and say look we can't wait any longer we can't we can't wait for you to decide you're ready to help us or cumulate enough agreement in the middle ground this is something we just don't want to live with the level that we're living with. And I don't know what is your response to this I mean in the previous segment you are talking a little bit about sort of figuring out what the middle ground is there are people who just don't want to wait that long and you can kind of understand that right. Oh sure. Sure and I understand the sense of urgency to do something. We also have to understand that everybody do something isn't the same for everybody else and so we can't just do something we have to do something that one everybody can agree with and 2 they have to do something that actually works. What we we keep kind of dancing over one of the things that is so so so important and Heather's mentioned it twice now and I don't want to at all reduce the importance of the the things that we see on the news. The mass shootings that we see on the news I don't want to at all reduce that importance. But we can't lose sight that the real that that's a that's a that's a small sliver of the real problem that is injury and death associated with firearms. And we have to tackle the big problem we can't. Anyway I and I want to go back to something that that Hanken said get them very interested in in his opinion on this about the the idea of. Compassion fatigue or or becoming a new Orde. One of the recommendations that we make in our report is actually for the media to not censor but for the media to take somewhat of a and editorially muted approach to the coverage of these big events specifically to help eliminate some of the the notoriety that. The assailants. May desire and what do you think is our. So I think. I think that's a that's a complex question you know I served on the governor's Sandy Hook Advisory Commission here in Connecticut and I am reminded of how viscerally offended family members were every time the mention of that mass shooter's name was made either in a public meeting or on the air and I'm I think we need to be sensitive to that at the same time I think it's a complex issue to try to control the way that the press can and can report these events that as you yourself mentioned you know there's a difference between things we'd like to do and things that we actually can do and one other thought I have about that is that while yes I do believe that the reporting and the notoriety of shooters does compound the issue and incite the next shooter at the same time I believe that as we learn more about the environment of the shooter and the life history of the shooter and we're able to demonstrate even retrospectively as inadequate as this is that we can at least learn about these issues that that may contribute to the sense of safety that we as a public have I'm concerned that if we stopped reporting in-depth about these issues that we would have on modulator that contagion of fear not modulating by and in the way that information can help there are so few things that really can help to restore a sense of safety and information frankly is one of them so I'm kind of torn about that recommendation I really don't remember the media let me just say I think that ship is totally I mean look if the Washington Post in the Hartford Current and the New York Times don't do you curated responsible coverage of this. Stuff it's going to be done but it's going to be done on social media by guys in Macedonia making stuff up and conspiracy theorists in this country people or people would consume a tremendous amount of information about something like Sandy Hook whether we did it or not as it was we've had to fight an incredible battle against these Alex Jones people who claim Sandy Hook never happened we have had to produce a tremendous amount of documentary evidence just to fight back that notion that it wasn't a false flag in order to create more of an appetite for gun control that children and teachers really did die in that place we also had to fight for records that the state didn't want to share that I think did have the potential to elucidate this matter in the ways that Hanks talking about I just I don't I don't buy this whole the media is the problem right now you could've made maybe made that argument before there was sort of amateur social media but not now right you know I think that's right and I would add to that the number of incidents that we're having now I think we have to escalate the way that we we talk about this we're having this is a quick one to a ground war on American soil and while it's true that you can't have a ground war without weapons weapons are clearly a central issue you've got to have reporting about the war and reporting that tries to keep the record straight you're completely right that the way that information is being is dispensed with so much and accuracy on social media really requires a press report that is accurate and timely and informative and I think ultimately helpful imo I want to do something that I picked out a plea do well we got a call from Zoc from Woodbridge Maybe I'll start there I'll start with you this where so Doc wanted to know what the recommendations were of your report I'm just going to ask you Rick just in the interest of interest of time in. The report that you and the other 21 professionals were involved in is there one thing that really jumps out at you like if I could hinge you a magic wand and say you can get this thing passed no problem you need Congress you know the president you need a constitutional amendment whatever I'll get it for you what's the thing that you wish would get done. So that our recommendations there's 13 specific recommendations centered around the approximately 10 or so principles I suppose hankers that if you wanted me to pick one if I could only get one of the recommendations it would be for. Nonpartisan federally funded research that is done commensurate with the the level of public health impact that firearms have. The little feel remorse that we understand we're taco if again if I just had to pick one of them. The research to our true knowledge into injury and death related to firearms is very small compared to our our knowledge our research into or any other medical condition any other health condition there's reasons that we have. That that is like that right now there's reasons that we have gotten to where there is. Very little federal funding for firearm related research but if we really want to make evidence based decisions about what our pop gun policy is going to be. We need to have the evidence right so I mean that has to be done that has to be done in a nonpartisan way to underscore that that's And I think most doctors would agree with that you know you talk about kind of the impulse to just do something well we have to do something that works and it's not clear what that is right now because there's just such a positive research out there since 1906 when the Dickey Amendment was put in place really we have a complex problem of gun violence in terms of all of its various flavors whether it's suicide or domestic violence related unintentional shootings in the homes we have a variety of laws on the books and we need to know which ones work and you know we have a $1000000000.00 invested the opioid epidemic for research we have almost no money invested in gun violence with all these complex questions that need to be answered so that when we invoke policy that we're doing something that's going to be effective and I think that 996 law that you're invoked in your head there is the one that mandates that none of the funds made available for Injury Prevention and Control Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used or promote gun control which seems to have had kind of a chilling effect overall on the kind of research you're talking about right well at the time when that amendment was kind of a reactionary move by the congressman they also cut funding for gun violence they took the 2600000 that was earmarked for gun violence research and they put it in traumatic brain injury so they said you can't use funds for gun. Violence and were in fact the existing funds you have are going to move it over here so after that point to 30 there's a 2 thirds reduction published papers since that time. Most of the most of the medical studies that are done you know are funded by the seed Well I mean most of honestly as far as is funded by industry med tech devices and farm pharmaceutical companies to be honest but 30 percent of funding in the countries in the c.d.c. And the and and that's what would be the funding source for gun violence research and that is that's a vacuum right now there's no funding there for gun violence or very little. I'd like to add to that just for a for a moment you know record I think that the position paper of the American College of of Surgeons is really quite good and it's quite reasonable in its position of trying to seek compromise but on an issue like this I'd have to ask how what kind of compromise can there or should there be to the principle that the image that the federal government will not allow funding for gun violence research now is that. It was finding some compromise there a reasonable position that is such an outrageously partisan position to have taken to begin with it's not paralleled by the approach to any acquittal and does death causing incident or or disease so I want to deal with that question hang in there 1st Rick and ponder his response we got to take a really quick break here just so we can get back and have a full final segment here Sarah Stay with us and we'll wrap up this conversation. Support for Connecticut Public Radio comes from Hopkins School of New Haven coed day school grades 7 to 12 where intellectual curiosity is the most powerful energy in the world Hopkins dot edu. I'm Robin Young California's Camp wildfire is the deadliest and most destructive in the state's history but it's also causing tremendous air quality issues in the Bay Area schools have been canceled public health officials want people to reduce their time outside look at the health risks from wildfires next time here now. And you can tune in tomorrow afternoon at 2 am at holiday meal different sides take center stage or dinner table I'm not talking about the stuffing or mac and cheese but the people who come together when you welcome family friends and neighbors from all walks of life you make room for different perspectives all things considered brings different sides to the table so listen every afternoon and hear the bigger picture from n.p.r. News. Listen tomorrow afternoon up for. Your to do and on core presentation of today's column back in. Today's show is produced by Betsy Kathy make up for me Kai on wealth Bill Carey was played by Ted Nugent and tomorrow Shall we revisit our conversation about the place of women and evolution now back to calling it so it's going to vomit it's actually it's not a promise so we're having a conversation right now about gun policy and about the middle school communities response to gun policy I think it's a really good conversation too I'm so glad we got these 3 terrific guests who are Dr Heather share radiologist for North Broward radiologist in Florida Dr Rick Sidwell trauma surgeon at the Iowa clinic in. One of the co-authors of recommendations put forth by the firearm strategy team which is a work group with the American College of Surgeons Committee on trauma Dr Hank Schwartz psychiatrist and chief America's at her hospital's Institute of living and professor of psychiatry at the Yukon School of Medicine So Rick said Well when we last were active here Hank was posing the question how do you find middle ground in a situation where you know there's a law on the books I mean you're a medical scientist a medical people science people they tend to like data research and stuff like that there's a law on the books that inhibits that to a certain degree under what is your take on that well yeah again one of our recommendations coming from our work Crippen again and this is a work of firearm owners one of our recommendations is that there is. Research for firearm injury and firearm injury prevention and that that needs to be funded at a federal level commensurate with with the burden of injury. The . Our language had the right before break our language is very important so it. The idea isn't to have any idea where the dicky amendment comes from the dick Amendment says we can't use prevention money to advocate or promote gun control with a that in a sense makes sense we don't want to or we shouldn't fund research with a presupposed. Objective to advocate or promote gun research we need to fund the research that looks into the root causes of violence the how can we effectively store firearms how can we do effective counseling and training what are the effective policies of that lead to you know restricting firearms for violence prone individuals except for a so yes we need to do the the research absolutely absolutely group a lot of people would need to be done in a nonpartisan manner a lot of people would say that you just everything you just said would sort of toes on the line towards the kind of gun control where your ideas really get pushed back but rather I want you to react to that there's a fear that there's the slippery slope that you know. That the answer is to take guns away and that's not at all the answer the you know these problems are very complex suicide for example you know what can we do to curb suicide what we need better mental health care we need more in patient mental health beds we need long term care for patients who are mentally ill and depressed in terms of you know preventing suicide and then that and then there's the gun part of the equation you know there's question there's not science that shows that there are waiting periods effective to make it you know not an impulsive act would red flag laws where you have someone who's depressed and you know they have a farm able to disarm them of those be helpful you know that's just suicide for domestic violence wrecks and shootings all of the there's are so many different policy questions in terms of how do we curb it and the guns themselves are only one part of the question that needs needs to be sought you know which needs to be solved that is not only has that you've you've explained that nicely that's exactly . One of our recommendations when we deal we need we need good evidence in all these areas so that we can make an informed policy choice you know that's true new knowledge is always a slippery slope and that we never know where it's going to lead so knowledge about guns has really basically been withheld by the amendment out of fear that it might lead down one particular direction towards gun control suggesting that the researchers who would be doing it had a bias or predisposition when in fact those are searchers are scientists who we would hope and presume would be doing unbiased research that could have led into all of the the directions of the things we just don't know about how to prevent gun injury and how to prevent the consequences of gun injuries and there I want to do with you what I did with Rick a little while ago and just give you the magic wand for a moment and just a magic wand for a policy change something that based on everything that you've observed everything you know about this problem one change that would make a big difference what that change. You know it's I would if I could only do one thing it would be research also and I would have funding for research because like I said doctors are very reluctant to get behind something in the thing I know that it's going to work. And while there's lots of good ideas out there in terms of how to curb gun violence you know we can look at states that have lower suicide rates and look at their gun laws and compare them to areas that have higher suicide rates and try and keep out you know which of those laws were effective. If you know but the method violence with taking guns away from people who are have restraining orders and temporary restraining orders against them we can look at areas that have you know the law don't have a law on c.c.f. You know is there an impact. You know I would I would vote for funding and. You know funding for research and research I'm Hank I'm not going to give you a magic wand but I'm going to talk to you about something we've talked about a lot I mean not every one of these problems is a mental health problem God knows. There's all kinds of reasons why there was talking about accidental shootings there's all kinds of reasons that people. Die from gun violence on the other hand there's a mental health component to this whether we're talking about suicide or mass shootings or or whatever and it does seem as though the infrastructure that could deal with that is going away as opposed to being enhanced. Absolutely true and I think when we think about the mental health component of this I think we have to acknowledge that some shooters mass shooters and individual non mass shooters certainly have mental illness some certainly don't and many fall in between into an area that we would think of as well they're folks who are just not well put together or or are disturbed there are no short term mental health solutions there are no short term new predictors of who's going to shoot out on the street in a gang or who's going to shoot in a mass murder situation but clearly both for people who are mentally ill and for that the vast group of people who have issues the fact that the. Mental health infrastructure is fragile and America is an approach we could take for the long term for instance the number of psychiatric beds in America has diminished so significantly that people wait in emergency rooms sometimes for days or even weeks to get into a bed everybody who needs a bed in a psychiatric hospital want to be able to get one expeditiously want to be able to stay in that bed as long as is necessary to treat the episode of illness and want to have a kind of follow up or wrap around networks of care that will ensure. A diminished risk from in the population in over the long term that I'd add to that that there's an education and school component to this which is to say that social connectedness empathic connectedness the things that we consider to be a part of social emotional burning you know so far we kind of think of well social emotional learning is something that we give to kids who are at risk who have special needs. Or maybe we spend a few minutes with the class here and there but social emotional learning is one of the connecting threads for our society empathic connectedness needs to be emphasized in school all right thanks it's a good place to stop thanks to Dr Hank shorts Dr Rick Sidwell and Dr Heather share thanks for this very good conversation special days debate the Catholic who put this conversation together and we'll be back tomorrow we always are. On the next fresh air. Maybe some Eola heard me buster Scruggs The Ballad of Buster Scruggs a new Coen Brothers film of 6 stories about the old west they're singing gunslinging Cowboys bank robbers and wagon trains on the Oregon Trail I'll talk with Joel and Ethan Coen about the film join us. West End tonight at 10. Support for Connecticut Public Radio comes from Connecticut Repertory Theatre is a civil war Christmas as Sturrock a holiday musical with a message of hope for a divided nation Nov 29th through December 9th tickets at c.r.t. U. Conn dot edu. Connecticut Public Radio's news reports are made possible by Bloom Shapiro my place c.t. Holiday Hill day camp and Hinkley Allen Attorneys at Law. This is Connecticut Public Radio n.p.r. And n.p.r. H.d. One merit and 90.5. 89 point one. F.m. Stamford at 88.5 The Southampton 91.3. My friend his mom does not take no for an answer that crosses rarely a car carriage we run as short stories here on the radio show now and then there were years ago a car's older brother was in the Army serving in Lebanon Israel had just visited Lebanon it was war and it's a credible to us but the policy of the Israeli army is that if it's at all possible you go home on leave every 2 weeks and I've been it's close just next door to Israel that guy says his brother was coming home every month and then you know that stopped he wasn't getting any wave and be my brother didn't come home for almost 2 months and he drove my mother crazy you know and she decided that she should get my brother back home you know and it's very difficult to deal with anything during the war because everybody's story can crazy but she decided that she needs to speak to the chief of staff and she started calling and they chief of staff is like the head of the Army yeah take the take the Day head general for the entire Army yeah that guy explained her strategy was simple she called the guys office talked to ever answered and she would talk for long enough until she would have something that she could say it offended her or made her angry and then she asks to speak with dead person superior she did the same thing with that person and then that person superior and so on and on and on and on and in the end she Fonda said speaking to the head general you know the faith on whose one of each was the most famous kind of war heroes and he said to him listen they generate a gun they know that you're fighting a war and I'd be really don't want to waste any of your time so I really make it simple if my son didn't get a leave from the Army for the past the 2 months I can be 24 hours to sending back home if you know what's good for you Hubie back you know before to morrow evening wait if you know it's good for you. Yeah. And bigeye sister I just want to understand me she's scared are you threatening me and she says yes I am fretting you and then you know I didn't want to put it in the septics because the I know that you're busy so if you know what's good for you. You send. And he says to me she's scared to do you know who I am and she said you know what faith. There was and he said to her if you know anything about me than you know that I'm not easily scared so I Mother said Yeah but I don't think you had many chances to fight we. Were 5 foot tall and weigh in 82 pounds and I want to tell you something and I make it very simple very quick you know. After you quit the army you either go to politics or you know go to the free markets in both cases you going to be very exposed in both cases every time so be it t.v. Camera or journalist you have the lady sitting in the 1st role shouting at you accusing you of any bad things that you might have made a maybe of some bad things that you've never made because I'm a very good liar and you don't want that so and it's that stage key Hi guys.
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